Rafael da Silva | 2010-14 Performances

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Did we sell Hernandez when we signed RVP?
Usually you don't rotate in defense as much as in attack.

Hernandez wasn't a starter anyway (he competed with Welbeck most of the time) and anyway RVP was a player that you should sign if you can. Coleman isn't near as good so I don't think that the comparison makes sense. As I said, if Lahm is available I would be happy to sign him even if it means that Rafael will go on the bench (despite I love Rafael). But Coleman, why? He isn't an upgrade at all.
 
Usually you don't rotate in defense as much as in attack.

Hernandez wasn't a starter anyway (he competed with Welbeck most of the time) and anyway RVP was a player that you should sign if you can. Coleman isn't near as good so I don't think that the comparison makes sense. As I said, if Lahm is available I would be happy to sign him even if it means that Rafael will go on the bench (despite I love Rafael). But Coleman, why? He isn't an upgrade at all.

Well thats why we have 4 or 5 options as striker and in the hole. Having 2 options for right back is fine. And yes if you've watched Coleman once or twice this season you'll know he is an upgrade. The only question is whether he's a big enough one for the fee, whatever it is.
 
Well thats why we have 4 or 5 options as striker and in the hole. Having 2 options for right back is fine. And yes if you've watched Coleman once or twice this season you'll know he is an upgrade. The only question is whether he's a big enough one for the fee, whatever it is.
Upgrade on the Rafael of this season? Certainly yes. But if we go with this logice then we should keep only De Gea from our current team. All players have underperformed (I don't think that even Rooney has played near his best, though a bit better than last season).

Upgrade on Rafael of last season? Nope.
 
If we sign Coleman for 20+m then Rafael will be sold. It doesn't make sense to keep two very good right backs (does any other club does it except Madrid on Coentrao/Marcelo case?) and we would need to fund somehow that signing. I wouldn't be against signing a young player to provide cover (or maybe even compete if Rafael doesn't play good) like Clyne or someone on that level but signing a top right back doesn't make sense. Preferrably I would have given Varela a chance, he looks very promising and I think is on about the same level as when Rafael started playing for us. If we sign Coleman (who is only 25) and keep Rafael then what was the point of signing 2 young right backs in the summer?!

If both fullbacks become world class then you're probably right. However both players are not at that level yet. Coleman has yet to play real football (ie that involve seriously competing for trophies and play in the CL), Rafael needs to become more consistent and less of an injury prone.

Actually having two full backs with great potential may actually spurn one of them to stand up and be counted. So its a win win situation for us.

The only problem is Coleman's price. 20m is steep.
 
The only problem is Coleman's price. 20m is steep.

And it is a big problem. Especially when we consider that we need to improve other positions first. Only De Gea, Rooney, RVP and Mata are better than Rafael in our team (and Carrick of last season but he has been very poor this year). Also, Rafael has been very good in the first half of the season (though not as good as last year when he probably was on top 5 RB in the world). If Colema would have cost 5m then okay, go for it. But at that price it doesn't make sense. Also when you sign a players for that sum of money you then have to play it which would give an unfair disadvantage to Rafael.
 
There are people who want Rafael to be replaced (charley and Patrick at the top of my mind). There are a lot more who want us to sign Coleman which in turn means that Rafael will get sold.
Just because some posters want the club to buy a RB doesn't mean that Rafael will be sold. If he's not up to the fight then he shouldn't be at the club, I believe he will, he's United through and through. A bit of healthy competition can only be beneficial. Sometimes players get to comfortable when they know they will be playing regardless of form.
If Moyes decides to replace Jones with Jagielka (who is better at the moment) people will make a riot (despite Jones isn't near as good as Rafael and is neither grown here)
You seem to be missing the point here, when Rafael needed cover this season we've had to rely on Smalling, a top club shouldn't have to do that. The last thing we want to do is buy another ' Buttner' type player, or to rely on Smalling/Jones/Valencia which hasn't worked well.

There is a tendancy to overrate British/Irish player here (which is understandable considering that the majority of posters here are British/Irish. If Coleman wasn't Irish I doubt that many people here would have wanted him to replace Rafael. I can understand wanting to replace Rafael if we find a young Lahm, but Coleman (who would cost at-least 20m) would be a completely retarded decision.
Coleman hasn't been over rated on here though, in fact most have said the 20-25 million asking price is far to much.
Again you mention about 'replacing Rafael' that's not what I believe the vast majority want, they want competition for all places in the squad, Rafael and Evra don't have that at the moment, in fairness there are quite a few players in the team that have no competition.
 
Name the last Irish player to change clubs for an inflated transfer fee?

The nationalities Irish and British aren't interchangeable by the way. Word to the wise.
Robbie Keane? I also guess that the reason why there aren't many Irish players who go for inflated fees (which to a degree means to be signed from top clubs) is because there aren't many good Irish people. Coleman is one of the best of them and just see how much he is getting overrated here.
 
Just because some posters want the club to buy a RB doesn't mean that Rafael will be sold. If he's not up to the fight then he shouldn't be at the club, I believe he will, he's United through and through. A bit of healthy competition can only be beneficial. Sometimes players get to comfortable when they know they will be playing regardless of form.

You seem to be missing the point here, when Rafael needed cover this season we've had to rely on Smalling, a top club shouldn't have to do that. The last thing we want to do is buy another ' Buttner' type player, or to rely on Smalling/Jones/Valencia which hasn't worked well.


Coleman hasn't been over rated on here though, in fact most have said the 20-25 million asking price is far to much.
Again you mention about 'replacing Rafael' that's not what I believe the vast majority want, they want competition for all places in the squad, Rafael and Evra don't have that at the moment, in fairness there are quite a few players in the team that have no competition.
Tell me how we will get the money to sign Coleman if it isn't funded by Rafael's sale. We need at-least a central midfielder, a left back and a central midfielder. Ideally we need another central midfielder and an another left back. How we will spend 20m in a right back and keep Rafael when we have other positions to improve?

And also, what is the point of Varela? A promising right back who has been good for revserves. If we sign another relatively young RB and keep a young RB on the club, then why we signed him?
 
Upgrade on the Rafael of this season? Certainly yes. But if we go with this logice then we should keep only De Gea from our current team. All players have underperformed (I don't think that even Rooney has played near his best, though a bit better than last season).

Upgrade on Rafael of last season? Nope.

He's better coming forward than Rafael was last season, comfortably. Barely if any more vulnerable defensively.
 
Robbie Keane? I also guess that the reason why there aren't many Irish players who go for inflated fees (which to a degree means to be signed from top clubs) is because there aren't many good Irish people. Coleman is one of the best of them and just see how much he is getting overrated here.

Robbie Keane. A striker who had scored the most PL goals in the calendar year leading up to his transfer to Liverpool and cost the dippers a staggering 19m quid? Not sure that helps your argument tbh.

Seriously, you're talking bollocks here. If you're arguing that Seamus Coleman would cost 20m, then you have to accept that this is because he's a bloody good player. To imply that this fee is inflated because he's Irish is fecking daft.
 
Tell me how we will get the money to sign Coleman if it isn't funded by Rafael's sale.
As I said I don't care if it's Coleman as long as it's a very good player that comes in, I'm certain we are going to sell this summer as well as our usual 'War Chest' I don't think the money would be an issue, I think the unrealistic price for Coleman would be though, as you've already stated Everton don't gave to sell.

We need at-least a central midfielder, a left back and a central midfielder. Ideally we need another central midfielder and an another left back. How we will spend 20m in a right back and keep Rafael when we have other positions to improve?
We need to buy a RB as well, no matter what way you look at it, I'd much rather have 8 very good defenders than 4 very good and 4 average stand ins. It comes back to that word 'competition' we need players looking over their shoulder, not being comfortable in there positions.
I don't think money will be an issue this summer.

And also, what is the point of Varela? A promising right back who has been good for revserves. If we sign another relatively young RB and keep a young RB on the club, then why we signed him?
If he's good enough he should have made the step up by now, he's 21 next month I think, if Moyes thinks he's ready then fine he can fight for his place like anybody else. If that means Moyes thinks he doesn't need to buy cover then so be it.
My point remains the same, we need quality cover for all positions.
 
Robbie Keane. A striker who had scored the most PL goals in the calendar year leading up to his transfer to Liverpool and cost the dippers a staggering 19m quid? Not sure that helps your argument tbh.

Seriously, you're talking bollocks here. If you're arguing that Seamus Coleman would cost 20m, then you have to accept that this is because he's a bloody good player. To imply that this fee is inflated because he's Irish is fecking daft.

Everton are under no pressure to sell. We'll have to pay an inflated fee because he has a long contract at Everton and he's happy there.
 
Woe is me. My post was slightly baiting, I'll admit, it was always going to attract somebody like you. Congrats. However, I have a genuine distaste for the faction of supporters that are so readily happy to oversee the mass changing of a squad of players that have given them so much joy. Mostly, it really is in some kind of morally-bound duty to defend the manager. I have a huge belief in the vast majority of our squad, namely warriors like Rafael. There's no way I will enjoy or welcome what I suspect Moyes has planned, both on and off the field.

There's no room for sentimentality in football. If Moyes doesn't rate Rafael as highly as you do that's his decision, and his success or failure will be down to those decisions. Most fans support the team, not individual players and the past has proven that no player is irreplaceable.
 
Straight swap? I think I would. Mainly on the basis of all the injuries. A close run thing though. I do rate Rafael very highly.

Fair enough. I haven't seen all that much of Coleman. Judging by last season's standards though, there are very few fullbacks, if any really, that I would swap Rafael with. He's matured into a good defender, is normally very good in attack and always gives 100%, sometimes just too much, on the pitch. The injuries do worry somewhat. Many of them seem to be down to him lunging into tackles, much in the same way as Jones.

To go back a bit to the ceiling part: Rafael, imo, has a much higher top level than Zabaleta for instance. Zabaleta, however, has found a way to play consistently in and around his top level, making him very, very consistent, and at a high level too. But if you were to pick attributes, Rafael would probably be ahead in all of them bar crossing, this season at least. Zabaleta really is quite average at so many things, yet he is so good...
 
That's pretty much my point. Zabaleta was someone people would have accused of having a "low ceiling" but he's turned out arguably the best in his position in the league. There's loads of players with "high ceilings" that didn't turn out nearly as valuable to their clubs. Micah Richards being the most relevant example.
 
Rafael is a lot better player when watched in action at Old Trafford.

Pace, energy, power, enthusiasm are a site to behold. He is infectious. His style of play is one of the reasons for his unfortunate injuries.
 
There's no room for sentimentality in football. If Moyes doesn't rate Rafael as highly as you do that's his decision, and his success or failure will be down to those decisions. Most fans support the team, not individual players and the past has proven that no player is irreplaceable.

All fans should support the team, not individual coaches...

We can continue with that juvenile and unrealistic attitude all we want, it isn't relevant to the raw emotions of football, or infact sporting, fandom. I am "sentimental" towards many of our players. Is any football supporter not? They've brought joy to us all, working their bollocks off to do so in the process. Our manager hasn't. He hasn't won my trust. He hasn't done anything to endear himself to me in the way the players have done, and I seriously question his ability to do this job based on what I've seen so far. I don't enjoy feeling this way, but I'm objective in the way I feel. With you, and I don't want to be too personal, but it's like you're mechanically programmed into seeing everything and anything in a way that is positive in regards to the manager. Even in this instance, with Rafael. You're right, nobody is irreplaceable, but that doesn't mean I can agree with the potential selling of young, talented, hard-working professionals who I am more than happy to see remain at the club for a very long time. Moyes can and will do what he wants, he's entitled to that. And sentimental or not, I, like you, am entitled to assess those decisions.
 
And it is a big problem. Especially when we consider that we need to improve other positions first. Only De Gea, Rooney, RVP and Mata are better than Rafael in our team (and Carrick of last season but he has been very poor this year). Also, Rafael has been very good in the first half of the season (though not as good as last year when he probably was on top 5 RB in the world). If Colema would have cost 5m then okay, go for it. But at that price it doesn't make sense. Also when you sign a players for that sum of money you then have to play it which would give an unfair disadvantage to Rafael.

You wont get anyone with 5m these days.
 
Good players look great when playing with average players.

Gibson, Neville, Fellaini, Lescott, and Rodwell are good recent examples of players looking great at Everton but distinctly different standard at bigger clubs.
 
Good players look great when playing with average players.

Gibson, Neville, Fellaini, Lescott, and Rodwell are good recent examples of players looking great at Everton but distinctly different standard at bigger clubs.

O'Shea, Brown, Butt are good examples of players doing the opposite - looking great alongside better players than they do at a lower level.

It's obviously player and situation dependent.
 
O'Shea, Brown, Butt are good examples of players doing the opposite - looking great alongside better players than they do at a lower level.

It's obviously player and situation dependent.
Good point. Average players do look better when flanked by great players.
 
O'Shea, Brown, Butt are good examples of players doing the opposite - looking great alongside better players than they do at a lower level.

It's obviously player and situation dependent.
They were a bit old when they went there. Completely agree with Sultan.
 
Good players look great when playing with average players.

Gibson, Neville, Fellaini, Lescott, and Rodwell are good recent examples of players looking great at Everton but distinctly different standard at bigger clubs.

Using that logic we should only ever sign players from clubs bigger than Manchester United, or risk being stuck with someone who only looks good because his team-mates are average.

Cuts down our options, just a bit. Also worth bearing in mind that the vast majority of players we have ever signed came from clubs at Everton's level or lower.
 
Got to agree with this part. This is a great ouel line that gets peddled about on here in order to verify that Fabio, is indeed, a top player. Djimi Traore started in, and won a Champions League final as did Ryan Bertrand; are they both amazingly good players? I think not.
No one's ever said that Fabio's a top player. People have used the CL Final to prove that he's got some amount of talent as when he's managed to get a run either here or at QPR he's proved good enough. Not necessarily to be a starter but good enough to be a backup. You'll find very few if any wanting Fabio to be first choice right off the bit. Just wanted him given a chance since he's proven to be at worse slightly better than Buttner and capable of playing on both sides as well as being used to the club and settled.
 
No one's ever said that Fabio's a top player. People have used the CL Final to prove that he's got some amount of talent as when he's managed to get a run either here or at QPR he's proved good enough. Not necessarily to be a starter but good enough to be a backup. You'll find very few if any wanting Fabio to be first choice right off the bit. Just wanted him given a chance since he's proven to be at worse slightly better than Buttner and capable of playing on both sides as well as being used to the club and settled.

Well my response was in context to the post that I replied to. You see, you actually make a good argument about Fabio and that's fair enough. It's the posters who use the 'he played in a Champions League final so be must be good' argument, that is just ridiculous at this stage. If you want to make a case for him, fair enough, but please don't use 'that'.

For what it's worth, I have never really rated him at all but I do think he's better than Büttner and would have been worth keeping around.

Believe me, plenty of posters on here massively overrate him and use the Champions League final nonsense to try gain leverage in their argument.
 
Using that logic we should only ever sign players from clubs bigger than Manchester United, or risk being stuck with someone who only looks good because his team-mates are average.

Cuts down our options, just a bit. Also worth bearing in mind that the vast majority of players we have ever signed came from clubs at Everton's level or lower.
True!

I realised the error in my thinking when Rowen replied to my post.
 
Well my response was in context to the post that I replied to. You see, you actually make a good argument about Fabio and that's fair enough. It's the posters who use the 'he played in a Champions League final so be must be good' argument, that is just ridiculous at this stage. If you want to make a case for him, fair enough, but please don't use 'that'.

For what it's worth, I have never really rated him at all but I do think he's better than Büttner and would have been worth keeping around.

Believe me, plenty of posters on here massively overrate him and use the Champions League final nonsense to try gain leverage in their argument.
I get you. It was mainly the part where you said the CL Final = top player I disagreed with. Seen no one call him a top player, just a good one.
 
I get you. It was mainly the part where you said the CL Final = top player I disagreed with. Seen no one call him a top player, just a good one.

Well no, the post I replied to said 'top player' and I was just referring to that really. He has been massively overrated on here, though, and that stupid Champions League final argument is really aggravating. I was just glad someone else brought it up.
 
O'Shea, Brown, Butt are good examples of players doing the opposite - looking great alongside better players than they do at a lower level.

It's obviously player and situation dependent.

Its nice to be proven right about these players.
 
Well no, the post I replied to said 'top player' and I was just referring to that really. He has been massively overrated on here, though, and that stupid Champions League final argument is really aggravating. I was just glad someone else brought it up.

If in your honest opinion Robbie, if you think Rafael is overrated, how would you rate Coleman?
 
Really hope Rafael has a good game this weekend. He's been hopeless in possession this season, giving the ball away repeatedly, being extremely tentative and clumsy in dribbling and putting in rubbish crosses. We really need him to get his mojo back as when he's confident and on form he's one of our best attacking outlets.
 
Rafa hasn't been himself at all this season, which is unfortunate, as Moyes is obviously going to seriously assess the squad ahead of the summer window. I'd hope that Moyes is aware that he's just been completely out of form, as I'd go as far as saying that he was one of the main reasons we won the title last season. He was ridiculously consistent.

Either way, I'm sure that SAF had only good things to say about him when Moyes took over.
 
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