Protests following the killing of George Floyd

[Sky1981]

The society including the media creates an image that black people present with more threat. We internalize these ideas passively and they root deep down in our heart. This doesn't necessarily make us a racist, we may still make friends and get along with black people. However, under certain circumstances (e.g. when we face a danger), this bias may affect our decisions in that split second and cause the officers to overreact.

In the social experiment from the episode I mentioned, subjects were given a fake gun. They were asked to shoot at those who carried a gun, and hold their fire to those who carried a phone. In the last round of the experiment, a black guy they knew and a white guy popped up together, both carring a phone. It turned out most of the participants took the shot against the black guy, who was a friend of theirs. This didn't only apply to white partcipants, but also black, Hispanic and Asian.

I know these conversations make me look like a racist, I'm not. I'm an Asian (as suggested from my username) who lived in the UK for some time and some of my friends are still there, and we are also the victims of racism. Trust me I hate it more than many of you, but it doesn't necessarily mean that we have to relate everything to racism. Chauvin may also be a racist after all, but there has been no direct evidence supporting that theory so far. So why not focus and condemn police brutality, which is apparently happening and much more legitimate?

I'm an asian studied in the west... well down under actually. What we faced and what we call racism encounter with cops so far are laughable jokes compared to the one black faced. They know we're not to be messed about because our embassy actually cares, we have money and almost all of us are there legally and law abiding. They cant muscle us like they muscle the black minority. Our parents are rich enough for us to lawyer up.

You know any asian in jail? How many? You know any far east asian student ever got beaten by police? Taken down and pinned on the ground? How many asian you know have a record on their rap sheet? An asian studying in UK is a cop out man.

Only rich asians goes to UK to study. Off course you wont be faced with the same racism and profiling blacks faced daily.

Now ask all the above to any black man you can find and see what they got to answer.

 

[Lyricist]

I have a weird question, some may not even like it.

And don't get me wrong, the cop is an arsehole and deserves the hardest punishment for what he did. And my feelings are with Floyd and his family.

But why is this about racism? Is it known that the cop is a racist? Why is it different, if a white person kills a black person to if a black kills a black or a white kills a white? Shouldn't we be ahead of this in time?

Would there be a debate like this if a black cop kills a white? If the cop had no racial intends (but other assholerys), wouldn't it be racism against white people to accuse them of racism like that in general (not talking about the cop as an idividual, but about all white people in US)?


Sorry, to me stuff like this is always hard to understand, because for me every human is just a human, no matter the race or color. But i witnessed many times that a black killed a white and never a racism debate comes up (at least not to this extent), while the world goes crazy if the opposite thing happens. I obviously know about the past of black people in US, but times have changed drastically compared to the last centuries. However, unfortunately human beings will keep killing each other in future, no matter where they are coming from, so topics like this are always likely to come up, or not?

In a topic like this i just wonder what would happen, if for example a stupid and criminal german would kill a jew in Germany. Would the whole country have to suffer because of one idiot? It basically shows to me, how fragile this world and its peace really is.

Seeing as I’m black and of your nationality and seeing as I’ve lived in the USA before, I feel I can shed some light onto this. Racial division in the US is DEFINITELY a thing. It is absolutely clear as day that there is no unity between white and black communities and black communities in the US are generally much poorer. Your perception or question makes sense because something like that doesn’t exist in our country. But at the same even here I’ve had a shocking experience with the police. When I was still a student, my apartment got broken into while I was away. When I came back I immediately called the police. The police report read that they suspected me of having faked the entire thing in order to get insurance money. I can guarantee you that this would’ve never been in the report if my blonde and white girlfriend from back then had called the police. It was shocking. This is from a country with a tiny black population in comparison to the US. So small that racial division based on color basically doesn’t appear to be a thing. I can only imagine what black people in the US are experiencing.
You say we should be far ahead of the time of racism. But not all Western societies are, in fact some have even gone back in time in terms of racial unity.

 

[berbatrick]

@OutlawGER

I really like to look at things via class but it doesn't fully explain everything here.
This analysis was done by a class-focused group, showing that while most of the white-black disparity in incarceration can be explained by class, not of all it can: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2018/01/30/mass-incarceration-new-jim-crow-class-war-or-both/
So, among the poorest 20% blacks, there is a ~48% chance of having been arrested, and among the poorest 20% whites, that number is ~42%. At the highest percentile (top 20%), the black and white arrest numbers are ~11% and 8%. So obiously a massive class component but a persistent racial one too. The racial disparity in those getting longer sentences (>1 year) is much higher even when broken by class, especially for poor blacks (~22% vs ~12% for poor whites). Depending on the criteria used, between 54% and 85% of the racial disparity can be explained by class alone. Of course, because of the distribution of wealth, these gaps get amplified.

Besides this analysis of current stats, another argument is that a lot of the motivation for the very tough laws in the US (more prisoners than any other country) is racial. Laws may effectively criminalise poverty, but many of them were made with a racial motive.

More anecdotally, there was a video from yesterday of some black store owners defending their shop, calling the cops, and immediately getting handcuffed because it was assumed they were looters; there is no way to explain that with a class analysis. That video of the girl in NY threatening the black guy that she'll mention his race to the cops shows that this is internalised by everyone.

 

[jungledrums]

Black men sentenced to more time for committing the exact same crime as a white person

Studies comparing 'justice' system for blacks and whites

Spoiler: Some pertinent bits

(The whole juries and jurors section is disgusting)

Thanks. Will spend some time going through these later. I am particularly interested in the data that shows that black Americans are more likely to be arrested than white Americans for the same crime. Some of the sources you linked are more to do with the racism that black Americans are subjected to once they have already encountered the CJS. To be clear, I accept fully that once black Americans have encountered the CJS, they are likely to be prejudiced against based solely on the colour of their skin. But what is the reason that these black Americans are disproportionately encountering the CJS in the first place? Some of the sources you linked might try to answer that, so I won’t say anything more until I have a read. Again, cheers for compiling that list.

 

[sglowrider]

*Graphic*




Retired St. Louis Police Captain.

Strange generation. Rather than attending to him they are filming him.

 

[Abizzz]

Strange generation rather than comment on the death of a man they comment on the actions of those that made them aware of him.

 

[jungledrums]

Strange generation rather than comment on the death of a man they comment on the actions of those that made them aware of him.

What does this mean?

 

[Abizzz]

What does this mean?

Which part isn't clear to you?

 

[jungledrums]

Which part isn't clear to you?

I would like to know what you mean by “they comment on the actions of those that made them aware of him”.

 

[Pagh Wraith]

Syria announces military support for moderate rebels in the US

Damascus (dpo) - In the future, the Syrian government wants to provide military support to pro-democracy forces within the USA in the fight against the authoritarian regime in Washington. This was announced by President Bashar al-Assad in a speech today.

"We can no longer stand by and watch this mad dictator use terrifying brutality against his own people and trample on the rights of peaceful demonstrators," Assad said. "Therefore, we will support moderate rebels from Seattle to New York with weapons and military trainers from now on." According to Assad, this is the only way to preserve the chance for a change towards a just democracy in the crisis country.

However, it is questionable how successful the strategic support from Damascus will actually be - after all, the autocrat Trump, who is considered unpredictable, seems determined to do everything possible to quell the protests in his country with the help of the military. However, the Syrian President has already announced that in the long term he will also consider air strikes on US military installations and government buildings if the aid decided today is not sufficient.

"As long as there is a chance," Assad concluded his speech, "we will support the American spring."

(satire)

 

[Abizzz]

I would like to know what you mean by “they comment on the actions of those that made them aware of him”.

We don't know anything about what happened before that short clip started... Maybe they did try CPR? Maybe someone else had already? Maybe they just finished calling 911 before starting to film? (I'm not saying any of this did happen, we simply don't know from that short film) Possibly they were so shocked/traumatized by finding a lifeless person on the sidewalk they didn't know what to do other than express outrage and shock?

But peoples first reaction to seeing that is to comment on those that made them aware of it.

(Reading this again it reads more confrontational than is intended, but I don't really know a better way to word it at the moment) Everyone is obviously correct that CPR/Help in some form should come before filming.

 

[berbatrick]

(more context and followup in the comments)

 

[arnie_ni]

You just quoted the statistics by yourself.
Shootings by police are a big problem in the US, but as you stated yourself, this is about, that Blacks and people of color would be "happy" to be victims as often as whites of police violence. But they are not. Even if police violence would be reduced in general, it woudn't change that blacks are 2,5 times likelier to be brutalized by police. And that is the issue at hand.
The way you've written it, my conclusion is, you want police violence reduced, but you do not care about the fact, that blacks and other minorieties are much more often the victm of this violence due to structural reasons/racism

To me he said even if you remove racism you'll still have cop involved murders on white black asian whatever due to the gun control issue.

Im not sure he said anything more than that

 

[jungledrums]

We don't know anything about what happened before that short clip started... Maybe they did try CPR? Maybe someone else had already? Maybe they just finished calling 911 before starting to film? (I'm not saying any of this did happen, we simply don't know from that short film) Possibly they were so shocked/traumatized by finding a lifeless person on the sidewalk they didn't know what to do other than express outrage and shock?

But peoples first reaction to seeing that is to comment on those that made them aware of it.

Yes, we simply don’t know. “Maybe they did try CPR” you say? It’s not an entree, you don’t just “try” CPR. You administer it until the emergency services arrive - you do not stop even one second sooner. How did it not strike you as odd that the man filmed a relatively long clip of another man dying rather than putting down the camera and rendering aid? I don’t particularly care to be honest, but I don’t see why you find our reactions so questionable.

 

[africanspur]

Thanks. Will spend some time going through these later. I am particularly interested in the data that shows that black Americans are more likely to be arrested than white Americans for the same crime. Some of the sources you linked are more to do with the racism that black Americans are subjected to once they have already encountered the CJS. To be clear, I accept fully that once black Americans have encountered the CJS, they are likely to be prejudiced against based solely on the colour of their skin. But what is the reason that these black Americans are disproportionately encountering the CJS in the first place? Some of the sources you linked might try to answer that, so I won’t say anything more until I have a read. Again, cheers for compiling that list.

No worries.

Those links contain a mixture of the above. Black Americans getting sentenced more and for longer for the same crimes once they're in the justice system (as well as being removed from juries more etc) but there is also some stuff about getting arrested more than white people, stopped more than white people for crimes they commit at the same rate (or that whites commit more).

There was some other stuff about (for instance) blacks getting stopped more for bike related 'offences' but I didn't quote the ones where there was a higher degree of subjetivity (ie you could argue that perhaps blacks are riding more on the pavement, the biking infrastructure isn't as prevalent in lack neighbourhoods etc etc).

Its a good, albeit sad morning read.

 

[Synco]

@OutlawGER

I really like to look at things via class but it doesn't fully explain everything here.
This analysis was done by a class-focused group, showing that while most of the white-black disparity in incarceration can be explained by class, not of all it can: https://www.peoplespolicyproject.org/2018/01/30/mass-incarceration-new-jim-crow-class-war-or-both/
So, among the poorest 20% blacks, there is a ~48% chance of having been arrested, and among the poorest 20% whites, that number is ~42%. At the highest percentile (top 20%), the black and white arrest numbers are ~11% and 8%. So obiously a massive class component but a persistent racial one too. The racial disparity in those getting longer sentences (>1 year) is much higher even when broken by class, especially for poor blacks (~22% vs ~12% for poor whites). Depending on the criteria used, between 54% and 85% of the racial disparity can be explained by class alone. Of course, because of the distribution of wealth, these gaps get amplified.

Besides this analysis of current stats, another argument is that a lot of the motivation for the very tough laws in the US (more prisoners than any other country) is racial. Laws may effectively criminalise poverty, but many of them were made with a racial motive.

More anecdotally, there was a video from yesterday of some black store owners defending their shop, calling the cops, and immediately getting handcuffed because it was assumed they were looters; there is no way to explain that with a class analysis. That video of the girl in NY threatening the black guy that she'll mention his race to the cops shows that this is internalised by everyone.

If I understand this part correctly, it's a major point made as a side note: class structure in the US itself is the result of historical racial inequality.

So systemic racism is a double whammy - higher probability of harsher treatment among poor people and higher probability of being poor in the first place. (With all the other severe disadvantages that come from it.)

 

[RedC]

I don't understand why they seem to be actively shooting for people's heads, surely being shot by rubber bullets anywhere on your body will produce the same effect(leaving the area)? How have they not been instructed to do as little damage as possible?

 

[4bars]

(more context and followup in the comments)

Ahhh, good old venezuela. Shooting people in protests...oh wait

 

[In Rainbows]

I don't understand why they seem to be actively shooting for people's heads, surely being shot by rubber bullets anywhere on your body will produce the same effect(leaving the area)? How have they not been instructed to do as little damage as possible?

They probably were informed not to do that, but it doesn't matter if they don't get held accountable. There is no oversight. It's insane how much protection they get and how much of a fraternity it is.

 

[FireballXL5]

I don't understand why they seem to be actively shooting for people's heads, surely being shot by rubber bullets anywhere on your body will produce the same effect(leaving the area)? How have they not been instructed to do as little damage as possible?

To kill them. They are violent sadists who have been let off the leash.

 

[reelworld]

If I understand this part correctly, it's a major point made as a side note: class structure in the US itself is the result of historical racial inequality.

So systemic racism is a double whammy - higher probability of harsher treatment among poor people and higher probability of being poor in the first place. (With all the other severe disadvantages that come from it.)

Exactly.
Hundreds of years of slavery and racism put Black Americans at a massive disadvantage socially and economically. The time that they managed to improve themselves economically, racists come and destroy it. You can google the Tulsa Massacre if you haven't heard about it.
so bigger probability to be poor -> become criminals -> get the image of being dangerous -> police become more violent

 

[SirAnderson]

If I understand this part correctly, it's a major point made as a side note: class structure in the US itself is the result of historical racial inequality.

So systemic racism is a double whammy - higher probability of harsher treatment among poor people and higher probability of being poor in the first place. (With all the other severe disadvantages that come from it.)

How people can see or understand this is beyond me really.
The entire thing is rigged against them.
That Documentary The 13th, highlights how even the powers that be, use the constitutions loopholes to relabel slavery over the years.
Instead of treating addiction (drug) as a disease and finding medical solutions for it, it was painted as a criminal act.
Prison becomes a tool of slavery, in that once a felon, you can never live it off, even after you served your time, you will always be paying for it, can't vote, can't get certain jobs, certain privileges etc.

The cycle will always continue until the entire system of systemic racism is destroyed.

 

[TheReligion]

While I think that there is definitely a bias towards shooting black people, I feel that an even bigger problem here is the police shooting, full stop. The police are trigger happy, more than in any other first-world country (if we call the US a first-world country). In fact, more white people are killed by police than black people, though per capita, if you are black, chances of getting killed by the police are 2.5 times as high as if you were white.

Source: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9

US Police compared to European countries

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country

From this we can see that Austrian police shot & killed 12 people in 12 years (2000–2011), Danish police 11 from 1996 to 2006, Finnish police 2 from 2003 to 2013, France - 85 in 2005–12, Germany - 47 in 2010–2015, Netherlands - 20 in 2009–2015, Norway - 2 in 2002–14, England & Wales - 24 in 2003/4 to 2015/16.

Germany, with roughly 25% of the US' population has on average 3 people killed from the police per year. The US has around 1000, which is 2 orders of magnitude higher (adjusted for population). Essentially, if you live in the US, you are 100 times more likely to be killed from the police than if you live in Germany. Statistic wise, if you go for a week per year in the US, you are more likely to be killed from the Police there, then in the remaining 51 weeks you're in your country (providing you live in a decent country).

I believe that the main root of the problem is the number of guns. Without addressing it, the problem won't be solved. Even if the police become less violent and less racist, a shitload of lives will be lost purely cause of guns in the US. So while I am happy about the protests that try to address the problem of police racism, and police brutality, I feel that they are relatively small parts of the bigger problem.

I think it's pretty obvious there are a number of issues in the US which contribute to the state of their society and the culture of firearms is behind most of them in my opinion. You have a situation where the public are allowed to bear arms and carry automatic weapons which means the police have to escalate what they carry and the tactics they use. For want of a better word it's a vicious cycle which means instead of focusing on policing with the consent of the people US law enforcement police by force and fear.

Of course this doesn't make racism any less of an issue itself however if you want to stop people dying on the streets they need to abolish the second amendment as a starting point and work from there. Doing this would allow the gradual de-militarisation of the police service from its current state and work as a catalyst for meaningful reform within law enforcement organisations. The job would become less attractive to the trigger happy ex/failed military applicants and would place a bigger focus on the quality of training for communication and unarmed combat. By taking firearms from everyone you also take them from the hands of those with prejudice, making it much more difficult to kill people due to their race, religion or the colour of their skin.

Is there actually a real desire amongst the American people to bring about change in these areas though? I don't know. The nation elected Donald Trump as its President and whilst that was done to bring about "a" change it certainly wasn't done to bring about "the" change they really need.

Despite mass inequality, unacceptable levels of police brutality and a large volume of school shootings it seems acceptable to let just about everything other than the second amendment die.

 

[Abizzz]

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-i-became-lawyer-chidi-egbochue

Harrowing read... experiences of my former supervisor, a rare sight.. a black partner of a top law firm.

Thanks for sharing that.

 

[BeforeKeanetherewasRobson]

The mind boggles at stuff like this

One of the replies was funny... though sad at the same time.

 

[Skizzo]

A normal person would realise that putting a large amount of pressure on someone's neck is dangerous but it makes you wonder if this is something that are taught to do when pinning someone. @choiboyx012 @Skizzo ?

At no point are we ever taught to put a knee on the neck. During training they even make specific mention to not apply heavy pressure When performing felony handcuffing techniques to avoid causing injury to the party.

 

[Grinner]

At no point are we ever taught to put a knee on the neck. During training they even make specific mention to not apply heavy pressure When performing felony handcuffing techniques to avoid causing injury to the party.

How's things looking in NorCal? I need to plan my return.

 

[Skizzo]

How's things looking in NorCal? I need to plan my return.

Riots and fires up in Sacramento. Been bouncing around San Jose, SF and Oakland for various protests and riots.

I’d hold off.

 

[Grinner]

Riots and fires up in Sacramento. Been bouncing around San Jose, SF and Oakland for various protests and riots.

I’d hold off.

FFS, I need to fly into SFO. No way I'm choosing Oakland!

Stay safe and good luck out there.

 

[Raoul]

How's things looking in NorCal? I need to plan my return.

Apparently no better than elsewhere. A car dealerahip in San Leandro was raided by looters who made off with a lot of vehicles. That area appears to be getting hit hard with looting.

 

[Skizzo]

Apparently no better than elsewhere. A car dealerahip in San Leandro was raided by looters who made off with a lot of vehicles. That area appears to be getting hit hard with looting.

And we’re being told to not engage with some of that. Online at protests and watching people drive up, switch license plates from parked vehicles, steal shit and then switch back and drive off.

Not to mention everyone being cited out for so many things that they’re out committing the same crimes the same night.

FFS, I need to fly into SFO. No way I'm choosing Oakland!

Stay safe and good luck out there.

Yeah probably a good call

Cheers mate. Get back safe.

 

[hmchan]

I'm an asian studied in the west... well down under actually. What we faced and what we call racism encounter with cops so far are laughable jokes compared to the one black faced. They know we're not to be messed about because our embassy actually cares, we have money and almost all of us are there legally and law abiding. They cant muscle us like they muscle the black minority. Our parents are rich enough for us to lawyer up.

You know any asian in jail? How many? You know any far east asian student ever got beaten by police? Taken down and pinned on the ground? How many asian you know have a record on their rap sheet? An asian studying in UK is a cop out man.

Only rich asians goes to UK to study. Off course you wont be faced with the same racism and profiling blacks faced daily.

Now ask all the above to any black man you can find and see what they got to answer.

Two of my Asian friends got beaten on the street for nothing just because of the Wuhan virus. Yes it's nothing comparable to the death of Floyd and maybe it's a laughable joke to you, but I'm certainly not a fan of racism.

 

[diarm]

Two of my Asian friends got beaten on the street for nothing just because of the Wuhan virus. Yes it's nothing comparable to the death of Floyd and maybe it's a laughable joke to you, but I'm certainly not a fan of racism.

Was it by police officers? Because if not, it is not really relevant.

There are dickheads in all walks of life - racist dickheads in most. The difference is that not all racist attacks or abuses are state sanctioned and encouraged.

 

[hmchan]

Was it by police officers? Because if not, it is not really relevant.

There are dickheads in all walks of life - racist dickheads in most. The difference is that not all racist attacks or abuses are state sanctioned and encouraged.

It's originally not relevant, because "police brutality" and "racism" are two different issues. But now it seems people like to mix them up so it somehow becomes relevant?

 

[Abizzz]

It seems Houston had a huge turnout without much of the problems last night. (Despite the problematic past of it's vocal police chief). I feel it's important to highlight these too now that it's happening everywhere. If we only focus on terrible stuff from both sides we lose sight of what we're talking about.

 

[Deery]

It's originally not relevant, because "police brutality" and "racism" are two different issues. But now it seems people like to mix them up so it somehow becomes relevant?

Surely the two things are intertwined, you’d have to be an idiot not to see that.

 

[diarm]

Surely the two things are intertwined, you’d have to be an idiot not to see that.

Or just not want to.

 

[JPRouve]

It's originally not relevant, because "police brutality" and "racism" are two different issues. But now it seems people like to mix them up so it somehow becomes relevant?

So you are suggesting that under all circumstances two issues can't be linked?

 

[oates]

Or just not want to.

And continue forgetting being told before.

 

[syrian_scholes]

It seems Houston had a huge turnout without much of the problems last night. (Despite the problematic past of it's vocal police chief). I feel it's important to highlight these too now that it's happening everywhere. If we only focus on terrible stuff from both sides we lose sight of what we're talking about.

60k according to local news media.