Protests following the killing of George Floyd

PepsiCola said:
or do brown lives hold less value than white Europeans?
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why do you assume I would think that? Its a really prickish thing to insinuate.

Churchill also allowed the bombing of Coventry because he considered it to be the greater good and they were mostly white European victims of his cold calculations, as far as I am aware. I don't know enough about the Bengal famine to understand his reasoning, if there was one.

I said that it will be the next big conversation, because he was a terrible person who made the world a better place including for non-Europeans, in spite of his bigoted views. The Reich wouldn't have stopped with Europe.

I'm going to stop posting, as this is getting a bit off the point of the thread.
 
Cloud7 said:
It's crazy isn't it? It's like the thread version of 'give them enough rope'. It's like, little by little, the protests go on longer and longer, and the conversations about racism go on for longer and longer, and people just end up outing themselves and what they really think because it's gone on too long for them to keep up the facade. Every 15 pages or so we find ourselves with a new person showing themselves up for what they really are.
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This thread is The Cnutlympics.
 
Drainy said:
why do you assume I would think that? Its a really prickish thing to insinuate.

Churchill also allowed the bombing of Coventry because he considered it to be the greater good and they were mostly white European victims of his cold calculations, as far as I am aware. I don't know enough about the Bengal famine to understand his reasoning, if there was one.

I said that it will be the next big conversation, because he was a terrible person who made the world a better place including for non-Europeans, in spite of his bigoted views. The Reich wouldn't have stopped with Europe.

I'm going to stop posting, as this is getting a bit off the point of the thread.
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His reasoning was that he didn't want to risk supplies running out on the home front.
 
Dwazza Gunnar Solskjær said:
One of the core rules of firearm safety is to be sure of your target and beyond. The police are operating in target rich environments with constant movement. It's a perfect storm for something like this to happen. As such, I doubt they are shooting at people's heads but rather the people getting tonked like that are unfortunately walking into the path of a projectile meant for someone else or fired indiscriminately. A combination of bad luck and reckless use of anti-riot projectile launchers.
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Pretty sure they're not meant to be shot at people's heads so regardless, no. They're deliberately aiming at head height.
 
There's a lot of moral pontificating and virtue-signalling going on here in this thread. Unless people on here are saying that they have never said or done anything or by acts of omission become complicit in any racist or discriminatory behaviour?
 
RedPed said:
There's a lot of moral pontificating and virtue-signalling going on here in this thread. Unless people on here are saying that they have never said or done anything or by acts of omission become complicit in any racist or discriminatory behaviour?
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Growing up I’ve definitely been guilty of not confronting racist talk. I’ve held views that at best were uninformed and at worst were racist. What are you trying to say with your post?
 
Cloud7 said:
It's crazy isn't it? It's like the thread version of 'give them enough rope'. It's like, little by little, the protests go on longer and longer, and the conversations about racism go on for longer and longer, and people just end up outing themselves and what they really think because it's gone on too long for them to keep up the facade. Every 15 pages or so we find ourselves with a new person showing themselves up for what they really are.
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what about covid, all this rioting, what is even the end goal with these protests etc etc the list is endless.
 
Cascarino said:
Growing up I’ve definitely been guilty of not confronting racist talk. I’ve held views that at best were uninformed and at worst were racist. What are you trying to say with your post?
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I suppose that it's true for all of us, the difference is that some us learn and try to challenge their ideas or the ideas that exist in their social circles. I would suspect that most men have had misogynistic ideas at some point, it's the most common thing that I can think about and yet most of us now know that not only it's wrong but it's incredibly stupid, I couldn't explain or justify them.
 
Sphaero said:
I spoke to a friend who attended that protest today in Berlin. While I am vocal in my opposing stance towards the protests in such a manner in Germany right now I do hope that something constructive and lasting comes from them.

What I learned in that conversation was not reassuring, though.

When I asked what concrete demands (adjustment of laws, harder punishment for disregarding existing laws concering discrimination, better funding of programms and initiatives by the state, changes in education plans, etc.) were commonly made, she said that it did not really became that concrete. It was a largely silent show of support (the organizers actually dubbed these protests as "silent demos") against racism in the US and in Germany.

Then I asked if the photos and videos of the protests were misleading as I saw that nearly all signs were in English. That question really took her by surprise and she replied: "Of course they were in English, silly. You don´t believe that the idiot Trump speaks German, right? The demo was to show that Berlin, Germany and the world stands with the protesters in the US and against racism."

What a nice sentiment that is. A sentiment that nobody in the relevant positions in the US will care about. I can name at least a dozen of instances off the top of my head of people marching on German streets against American actions (the most vividly for me were the huge protests in the wake of the second Iraq war) and for the US it was just an annoying buzzing sound.

I do believe that people attended the protests try to use the current momentum of awareness for racism to incite meaningful change in Germany, but it gets drowned out by the outrage over the murder of George Floyd and the civil war like happenings in the US.

My biggest fear in this regard is actually that these protests might backfire terribly for their cause.

If infection numbers would spike in two weeks and in the worst case scenario even go past the very clear communicated treshold by the government which will result in a second lockdown of the country, people will blame the protests for that which could actually setback the movement as it would connect it to death and economical damage.
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Exactly my concerns too.
 
Cascarino said:
Growing up I’ve definitely been guilty of not confronting racist talk. I’ve held views that at best were uninformed and at worst were racist. What are you trying to say with your post?
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I'm just saying that I'm finding this trial by social media a bit jarring with posters on here getting jumped on because of things they have said. Yeah it's right to call them out but people are talking and assuming this air of righteousness as if they're above reproach which I would hazard a guess that they are not as you have honestly alluded to.

Rather than get on their soapboxes and trying to look like parogons of virtue on an internet forum, I think people would do well to just focus on their own shit first. If we're going to see real change, we need to start challenging our own racist aunts, uncles, grannies and grandads, our mates and colleagues that we have just laughed off before when they have said things that are inappropriate, look at our own values and ask those difficult questions of ourselves.

That's what I was trying to say...
 
PepsiCola said:
So we should dismiss his racist views just because of the times he lived in?

His refusal to send aid, against the wishes of the MPs at the time, led to millions of deaths in the Bengal famine.

He was a white supremacist, if we look at his own words.

Or do brown lives hold less value than white Europeans?
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Drainy said:
why do you assume I would think that? Its a really prickish thing to insinuate.

Churchill also allowed the bombing of Coventry because he considered it to be the greater good and they were mostly white European victims of his cold calculations, as far as I am aware. I don't know enough about the Bengal famine to understand his reasoning, if there was one.

I said that it will be the next big conversation, because he was a terrible person who made the world a better place including for non-Europeans, in spite of his bigoted views. The Reich wouldn't have stopped with Europe.

I'm going to stop posting, as this is getting a bit off the point of the thread.
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Classical Mechanic said:
His reasoning was that he didn't want to risk supplies running out on the home front.
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Yeah that. And also stockpiling for future European consumption, for countries that had yet to be liberated. Whilst ships full of Australian wheat sailed past British Indian harbours. Abandoning 3 million lives that were lost on the lands considered the jewel in the crown of the British Empire.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
If someone around you spoke positively about human trafficking, peodo rings, people dealing drugs round the corner from where you live, white collar/ blue collar corruption, tax evasion, racism etc would you challenge them?
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even in a pre-covid world, I’m not going on a march to protest, as that’s my right, and it’s not how I convey my views. Furthermore, would I challenge every single incident? no of course not, and nor would anyone, you have to choose your battles. You can imagine for yourself an infinite no. of scenarios where you would not make a challenge.

the point is this - to proclaim that if you don’t challenge every abhorrent view/ comment/ perspective makes you complicit is utterly absurd.

do you think that makes me a racist? A tax evasion sympathiser etc? Because that’s the implication I’m getting from you and @PepsiCola?
 
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ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
even in a pre-covid world, I’m not going on a march to protest, as that’s my right, and it’s not how I convey my views. Furthermore, would I challenge every single incident? no of course not, and nor would anyone, you have to choose your battles. You can imagine for yourself an infinite no. of scenarios where you would not make a challenge.

the point is this - to proclaim that if you don’t challenge every abhorrent view/ comment/ perspective makes you complicit is utterly absurd.

do you think that makes me a racist? A tax evasion sympathiser etc? Because that’s the implication I’m getting from you and @PepsiCola?
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This isn't as difficult as you're making it out to be.

Being silent is being complicit.

It isn't enough to not be racist, you must be actively anti-racist. Challenge views around you, open in discussion and dialogue and ensure future generations see minorities as equals.

Not once did I say you have to go and protest actively.
 
PepsiCola said:
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I’m fully aware that Churchill made the decision based on him valuing the lives of the British and European‘s higher than that of the Indians. That he was a chauvinist and racist. I have no issue with Indian people viewing him on par with the Hitlers and Stalins of history. He’ll be a hero to many in the UK regardless of that though.
 
JPRouve said:
I suppose that it's true for all of us, the difference is that some us learn and try to challenge their ideas or the ideas that exist in their social circles. I would suspect that most men have had misogynistic ideas at some point, it's the most common thing that I can think about and yet most of us now know that not only it's wrong but it's incredibly stupid, I couldn't explain or justify them.
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Definitely, when I was in school I thought making rape jokes to girls was the cutting edge of comedy. One girl called me out, in a manner far more gracious than I deserved, and I had a hissy fit and stormed off. After I thought about what she’d said, I realised that she had been completely right in what she told me, and that I was just being sulky because she had called me out, and that deep down I knew that.
RedPed said:
I'm just saying that I'm finding this trial by social media a bit jarring with posters on here getting jumped on because of things they have said. Yeah it's right to call them out but people are talking and assuming this air of righteousness as if they're above reproach which I would hazard a guess that they are not as you have honestly alluded to.

Rather than get on their soapboxes and trying to look like parogons of virtue on an internet forum, I think people would do well to just focus on their own shit first. If we're going to see real change, we need to start challenging our own racist aunts, uncles, grannies and grandads, our mates and colleagues that we have just laughed off before when they have said things that are inappropriate, look at our own values and ask those difficult questions of ourselves.

That's what I was trying to say...
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I agree that at times the social media pile on can be counter productive. I’ve been guilty in the past of escalating things because I’ve been misconstrued ignorance for hate (I’m not telling others how they should deal with situations, just a personal introspection of myself as often I’ll talk to people on a forum in a way I wouldn’t irl).
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I’m fully aware that Churchill made the decision based on him valuing the lives of the British and European‘s higher than that of the Indians. That he was a chauvinist and racist. I have no issue with Indian people viewing him on par with the Hitler’s and Stalin of history. He’ll be a hero to many in the UK regardless of that though.
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Do you feel that Churchill's flaws should be taught as part of the curriculum here?

Whitewashing of history and British colonialism contributes to social issues we see today
 
PepsiCola said:
Do you feel that Churchill's flaws should be taught as part of the curriculum here?

Whitewashing of history and British colonialism contributes to social issues we see today
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It doesn’t bother me on a personal level but I‘m sceptical that such policies are saleable to the wider electorate.
 
PepsiCola said:
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That is disgusting. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for British Indians for him to be hero worshipped.

It sounds like his views were extreme, even at the time, so perhaps the British public should have a negative opinion of him, in spite of the victory over the Nazis.

In response to your post above, the history of the British Empire should be taught in schools, warts and all. Not in a way to foster self-hatred, but an age appropriate critical analysis of history.
 
Drainy said:
That is disgusting. I can only imagine how frustrating it is for British Indians for him to be hero worshipped.

It sounds like his views were extreme, even at the time, so perhaps the British public should have a negative opinion of him, in spite of the victory over the Nazis.

In response to your post above, the history of the British Empire should be taught in schools, warts and all. Not in a way to foster self-hatred, but an age appropriate critical analysis of history.
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The trade off is would you or any of the people who have the freedom to talk about it existed if he wasn't in charge to help lead the victory.
 
Drainy said:
In response to your post above, the history of the British Empire should be taught in schools, warts and all. Not in a way to foster self-hatred, but an age appropriate critical analysis of history.
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Honestly, I can't ever see that happening, at least not to the 'depth' the subject merits. The best that future generations of schoolchildren can hope for is the expression of mild regret from historians and the usual distractions of so-called economic necessities, literature officially sanctioned as instructive, letters, poems and the occasional sop of a 'native perspective'; in other words, the same old show.

Let's face it: the powerful rarely criticise themselves, and certainly won't instil doubt in the rebellious young, even at history's distance.
 
PepsiCola said:
This isn't as difficult as you're making it out to be.

Being silent is being complicit.

It isn't enough to not be racist, you must be actively anti-racist. Challenge views around you, open in discussion and dialogue and ensure future generations see minorities as equals.

Not once did I say you have to go and protest actively.
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I fundamentally disagree with you.

you realise that in what you are saying, you are imposing on people that they should be acting in a certain way - no matter whether the cause is righteous or not.

no, I don’t have to be actively anti-racist.

I can live my life NOT saying a word if I decide to, and that in no way makes me complicit, and in no way do I have a heavy conscious about it. I believe in right and wrong, but no, I do not have to educate people and challenge every view that is wrong.

Because, by your definition, you have to challenge everyone, and every wrong, and every injustice that is on this planet, otherwise I’m complicit in these wrongs.
 
Twitter said:
But where does this stop? The Romans invaded this country 2000 years ago. Should we demolish Hadrian's Wall?
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*cries*
 
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