Strange poll really. I agree with the general premise that it would be better to have a more progressive manager than Moyes but I don't want either of those options just yet.
POLL - Would you swap Moyes for Roberto Martinez or Mauricio Pochettino?
- Thread starter FineYoungCasual
- Start date
Is the Martinez love-in simply because he won an FA Cup with Wigan? I can't really figure that one out, apart from the obvious point that its another stick to beat Moyes with. He builds teams that are easy on the eye, but does he product teams that can get results? The fact that he was relegated last season suggests not.
I've seen a bit of Everton this season. They look like they did under Moyes, but with a very good striker added to the mix. I'll be interested to see how they fare next season when they lose Lukaku, Deulofeu and possibly Barkley.
Pochettino admittedly looks like a coach with a lot of potential, but he probably needs another job after Southampton before he is considered for the biggest clubs.
I've seen a bit of Everton this season. They look like they did under Moyes, but with a very good striker added to the mix. I'll be interested to see how they fare next season when they lose Lukaku, Deulofeu and possibly Barkley.
Pochettino admittedly looks like a coach with a lot of potential, but he probably needs another job after Southampton before he is considered for the biggest clubs.
Martinez was at Wigan from 2009 / 10 season finishing in the 2012 / 13.
According to my calculations during this period he spent minus 9.7m on players.
During this same period Moyes spent minus 18.8m on players.
Moyes' everton wage bill last season was 63m and Wigan wage bill was 38m.
To put this into context, Moyes had the 10th largest wage bill in the league and finished 6th. Martinez had the 17th largest wage bill and finished 18th.
I'm not sure how accurate this is however this article talked about the times and their attempt to work out something like points relative to wage bill. They found Ferguson performed the best relative to his wage bill with the points he got and Moyes came second. Martinez was 10th.
For this reason I must reject your notion that Martinez over achieved by getting Wigan relegated.
If we're back in May where Fergie was retiring and I knew our only choices were Moyes, Martinez and Pochettino, then I'd prefer the latter two for sure based on the style of football they play. Though I still wouldn't be convinced because of their experience on the big stage.
If the choice was to give Moyes another few seasons or sack him and hire one of the other two, then I'd probably opt for the latter. Though under current circumstances I'm going to say no because I'm hopeful the club will see sense and get rid of Moyes before he inflicts further damage, then bring in a coach of world class caliber as opposed to inexperienced coaches like Pochettino/Martinez, irrespective of how promising their potential is.
Southampton was leaking goals before Pochettino took over. A coach who emphasizes on defensive solidity is more likely to win trophies imo. One of my favourite periods as a United fan was when Van Der Sar went 14 games without conceding. Martinez plays fancy football but I think his philosophy had Wigan escaping relegation by the skin of their teeth before eventually going down.
Rodgers hasn't exactly been the most defensively apt coach yet he's taken Liverpool to title winning form, all while playing attractive football.
I don't understand this obsession with PL proven anyway, you're limiting your poll with your options. You could still ask your PL proven questions in a larger poll. This feels like choosing between diseases or something.
To be honest Moyes could probably build a great team, I'm just frustrated that he didn't play Kagawa or Adnan against Olympiakos. The former because of his european performances this season and the latter simply because a premier league match is more risky to roughing him up than a european game.
And to top all this off, he chose Valencia and Young ahead of those players.
That said, if he can find the players he wants for his system he could probably make it work. I think he struggled this season by the sheer quantity of work and lack of time for preparation relative to Everton and will adapt to this by taking less on and instead focusing his energy on managing as opposed to being the head scout, head coach etc.
I also hope he plays more like Everton next season with the full backs providing width and the wide players drifting centrally to operate like inside wingers. His Everton were probably more European than Fergie's United yet this season he went to the other extreme and was more out-dated and static than Ferguson. Sure Moyes relied heavily on crosses but they were provided by full backs flying down the wing playing almost as wing backs and due to Pienaar and Mirallas' movement, they naturally drew away from their positions the opposition full backs resulting in space down the flanks.
I'm just shocked at the system employed considering how alien it is compared to what he did at Everton.
I also loathe how we'll probably lose fan favourites like Hernandez, Kagawa, Rafael and RVP just because Moyes can't get the most out of them.
That said, although Everton didn't win a trophy, I would like to think a much better version of Everton would be able to challenge for the title. This is all he needs to create!
And to top all this off, he chose Valencia and Young ahead of those players.
That said, if he can find the players he wants for his system he could probably make it work. I think he struggled this season by the sheer quantity of work and lack of time for preparation relative to Everton and will adapt to this by taking less on and instead focusing his energy on managing as opposed to being the head scout, head coach etc.
I also hope he plays more like Everton next season with the full backs providing width and the wide players drifting centrally to operate like inside wingers. His Everton were probably more European than Fergie's United yet this season he went to the other extreme and was more out-dated and static than Ferguson. Sure Moyes relied heavily on crosses but they were provided by full backs flying down the wing playing almost as wing backs and due to Pienaar and Mirallas' movement, they naturally drew away from their positions the opposition full backs resulting in space down the flanks.
I'm just shocked at the system employed considering how alien it is compared to what he did at Everton.
I also loathe how we'll probably lose fan favourites like Hernandez, Kagawa, Rafael and RVP just because Moyes can't get the most out of them.
That said, although Everton didn't win a trophy, I would like to think a much better version of Everton would be able to challenge for the title. This is all he needs to create!
I've just had a quick browse of some stats there, and fair enough, I'll accept I'm a little wrong on this one. I do think things may have changed slightly, however, with City paying more in wages now, and perhaps Sunderland with the arrival of Ellis. Everton, historically, have always seemed to pay a lot in wages. I'd estimate that they would be in the top ten if it were averaged out over the last decade. That's been my impression anyway.
Anyway, I think this started because I disagreed with somebody's assertion that Martinez had, infact, kind of struggled as Wigan manager. I think one look at the playing personnel really does suggest that they were a Championship team in the Premier League. They're players weren't good enough. And even though the stats may show that Moyes spent less than Martinez in nett terms, it's kind of offset by my assumption that selling the likes of Rodwell, Biyaletdinov and Lescott for fairly big fees has skewed things slightly. Other than Valencia, maybe Moses, Wigan didn't recoup that much money. Again, all of this is off the top of my head, so I could be wrong.
I don't think there's that much comparison in expenditure between the two. Everton clearly do spend a lot more on wages, plus they could afford to spend £15 million on Fellaini, amongst other fairly large purchases. Wigan didn't have those resources. And then there's the difference in club size. Everton have a better, bigger stadium, as well as having that bit more pull in the transfer market.
Moyes was excellent for Everton, I'll not doubt that, but I think it's unfair on Martinez to suggest he had a similar situation to contend with. He certainly didn't underachieve, and I'm sure we're all in agreement that Wigan going down was a simply matter of time, given the improvement and resources across the rest of the league.
What's the thread you quoted my post from ?
I'd also add - no-one on here knows as much about Wigan or Everton than their own fans, so ask Wigan fans if they'd like Martinez back, and then ask Everton fans if they'd like Moyes back.
That's the thing though, was it only a matter of time before they got relegated or was it only a matter of time they got relegated under Martinez? Obviously they weren't on an equal financial footing to Everton, but it wasn't as large a disparity as many on here would like to believe. They'd been up for 4 seasons before Martinez joined, with only one real relegation scare in that time. Bruce managed to get that squad to 11th before he left for Sunderland and Martinez stepped in.
You say the players weren't good enough but, after 3 seasons at the club, the only person who can take the blame for quality of the squad last season is Martinez. The sales of N'Zogbia, Cattermole, Valencia and Moses alone brought in £41m. I don't think it's too controversial to say that given those kind of resources (according to Empire's figures he must have spent at least £50 million or so) he should have done better than he did.
Of course Wigan fans would want Martinez back, he got them an FA Cup. No disrespect intended, but fans of a team like Wigan would gladly trade a 17th place finish in for a Cup win, every day of the week. We're luckier than that and we need our manager to plan for the future instead of looking at giving the fans a trip to Wembley or brushing up his CV.
Everton fans are very ungrateful about Moyes, probably for the same reasons they hate Rooney, i.e - he joined Manchester United. This thread is documentary evidence that football fans have absolutely no problem ignoring historical fact if they've got an irrational point they want to justify, Everton fans are no different to many on here.
Their reservations on Moyes dates back to before he left:
http://www.sos1878.co.uk/everton-fans/an-open-letter-to-david-moyes/
I have no idea why I came to be browsing to an Everton forum last season, but it seemed a fair margin wanted him gone, I think it was around the time of them losing to Martinez Wigan in the FA cup, some were quite vocal in wanting a change of management, long before it became clear he was heading towards Man Utd.
Again, 1 forums opinion doesn't mean fact, but the animosity shown towards Moyes by some of their fans isn't quite for the same reasons they have for holding a grudge against Rooney in my limited experience.
Again, 1 forums opinion doesn't mean fact, but the animosity shown towards Moyes by some of their fans isn't quite for the same reasons they have for holding a grudge against Rooney in my limited experience.
Last edited:
It was probably an overgeneralisation on my part, but then claiming that Everton fans in general also wanted him gone is also a generalisation. Ultimate I think the point is moot. One thing that's clear when you frequent any football forum is that the fans of a club often aren't the ones best positioned to make rational judgements about that club. We're all far too emotionally invested, which is the only explanation I can think of for the ludicrous scale of the collective hissy-fit this forum has thrown this season.
You're better off taking what the fans say with a pinch of salt and looking at the facts and coming to a conclusion based on both.
Absolutely, prefer someone more high profile though.
I'd swap him for heinz beans.
need to save these posts somewhere when Moyes brings us back the title...you bastards.... 
Not sure I agree with that. Kone has been injured most of the season; Alcaraz is average back up and he got him for free so that isn't bad; Robles was brought in as an understudy to Howard, so again, not that bad; Deulofeu has been a very good addition in on loan; Lukaku has also been an excellent addition in on loan; Barry has been a good addition; it's too early to tell with McGeady at the moment; it's too early to tell with Traore too; and I've never even heard of Stanek. So when you look at it, the business has been pretty excellent, the loans in particular.
I think @KM was referring to concrete signings rather than loans, which by their very nature don't really give an indication of how well the club will fare in the long term. Ultimately in order to keep Everton at the same level he's got to keep the defence working as it is whilst key players start to age whilst also replacing players like Lukaku and Deulofeu at the end of the season. None of which seems likely without a considerable rise in investment from the board. For all the talk of Wigan being penniless, Martinez did spend a fair chunk of money and wasted a lot of it on dross - for example 6.5 million on Boselli who didn't score a single league goal and left for free, 5 million and 4.5 million on Ivan Ramis and Ali Al Habsi who they can't shift and aren't even deemed good enough to play regularly in the Championship these days. I think even the most one-eyed person would have a hard time claiming that any of his permanent signings so far have significantly strengthened the team, McCarthy aside, it's all been loan players who have made the biggest impact.
Going back to the larger debate, the point that many in here are trying to make is that despite Martinez getting in players like Lukaku and Deulofeu, who are far better than anyone Everton could realistically hope to sign permanently, they're barely better off then they were last season and they're actually scoring fewer goals than under Moyes. It's just utterly bizarre that people are capable of taking this information in and somehow still concluding that Martinez would be a half-decent manager at United.
Barry and Lukaku were hardly inspired signings though were they?
I definitely think he has massively benefited from walking into a team and having one of the best back 5s in the country as a base and able to concentrate on their on-the-ball play which is where he specializes.
Everton aren't better under him and last season they played some good football under Moyes.
Moyes problem at Everton was always that they looked a competent striker who fit his system away from competing for top 4. I believe with Lukaku they'd have done better under Moyes than they have done with Martinez.
Howard was talking recently about Martinez approach to games and how it was always about concentrating on the oppositions weakness. And yet people want to replace this supposed 'small time minded' manager with him? Crazy.
Moyes has proven to be able to constantly recycle and keep a team from going stale or in need of long transitional periods where lots of money is spent. He displayed at Everton what a lot of us believe was Fergies greatest quality.
I definitely think he has massively benefited from walking into a team and having one of the best back 5s in the country as a base and able to concentrate on their on-the-ball play which is where he specializes.
Everton aren't better under him and last season they played some good football under Moyes.
Moyes problem at Everton was always that they looked a competent striker who fit his system away from competing for top 4. I believe with Lukaku they'd have done better under Moyes than they have done with Martinez.
Howard was talking recently about Martinez approach to games and how it was always about concentrating on the oppositions weakness. And yet people want to replace this supposed 'small time minded' manager with him? Crazy.
Moyes has proven to be able to constantly recycle and keep a team from going stale or in need of long transitional periods where lots of money is spent. He displayed at Everton what a lot of us believe was Fergies greatest quality.
If he gets loan signings in every season that won't matter. Barcelona have seen that Everton is a good place to send young players. It wouldn't surprise me to regularly see young players shipped out there from them. Same with other big European teams.
I can't point to Moyes and his less than satisfactory record of signing big players too. Al Habsi wasn't a bad player either. Inconsistent perhaps, but certainly not bad.
Of course his permanent signings haven't made an impact! They've either been frees brought in as cover, haven't been there long enough, or in Kone's case he's been injured. There is literally feck all to make judgment on. Again, it doesn't matter who's making the impact. The point is he has players that are doing so.
If signing players like that on loan with that impact is so easy you'd have seen Moyes and many others do it. It isn't that easy though.
Barney, it's rare that players of Barry and Lukaku's quality are available for loan.
You'd have most definitely seen Moyes try for Lukaku surely.. And Barry would have been less important had they kept Fellaini.. I assume he'd have dropped deeper again in order to make room for Barkley.
I don't even believe Barry was the plan or some genius either. Wasnt it a last second panic since he couldn't get Fernando from Porto and had sold Fellaini?
You'd have most definitely seen Moyes try for Lukaku surely.. And Barry would have been less important had they kept Fellaini.. I assume he'd have dropped deeper again in order to make room for Barkley.
I don't even believe Barry was the plan or some genius either. Wasnt it a last second panic since he couldn't get Fernando from Porto and had sold Fellaini?
Has yet to see a team playing good football under Moyes to be honest.
Barry has received so much stick on here, it's unbelievable. He's one of the Milner/Henderson types where they are only recently beginning to be appreciated. I don't remember the reaction when they signed Barry, but judging by the caf's previous judgements of him I'd expect it wasn't thought to be brilliant. He was hardly chased after by all the other big clubs so it wasn't as straightforward as you're making out.
By the same token Moyes has walked into a side with one of the supposed best defences along with one of the better attacks.
There's not a single Everton supporter out there that would tell you that they preferred any of Moyes' football to the stuff Martinez is playing.
That's Moyes' own fault. It was his responsibility to get that competent striker. That he didn't reflects poorly on him.
That's praise from Howard. He then went on to say about Moyes that Moyes would focus mostly on the opponents and how Everton would be hurt by them. I'd much rather my manager used Martinez's methods.
They probably wouldn't have signed Lukaku on loan if they hadn't sold Fellaini.
The Barry loan deal was being worked for several days before any notion of the Fernando deal.
Martinez hasn't proved he can get that quality striker though has he? He just made the loan that every club wanted to make.
Fair play for pulling it off but I refuse to believe that he's going to be pulling these deals out his arse every season.
Intended praise or not it's still not how I'd want the United manager to be thinking.
With Moyes being there for so long and having a typical consistent style of play then there's an argument to be made that him concentrating on the opposition was because less was needed on how his own team are playing. Though Martinez has managed to get his team playing fairly consistent possession based football in a short space of time admittedly.
Either way, I don't personally subscribe to that way of thinking as I believe a manager should always be looking to improve and evolve on their own philosophy rather than constantly trying to undermine every individual oppositions.
Everton fans saying that doesn't mean a great deal to me. Martinez was handed a brilliant platform to start from by Moyes. There's every reason to suggest that Martinez coming in with fresh ideas may be positive for the club but in no way should it come at any sort of revisionism as to why they are where they are and the brilliant job that Moyes did.
Fair play for pulling it off but I refuse to believe that he's going to be pulling these deals out his arse every season.
Intended praise or not it's still not how I'd want the United manager to be thinking.
With Moyes being there for so long and having a typical consistent style of play then there's an argument to be made that him concentrating on the opposition was because less was needed on how his own team are playing. Though Martinez has managed to get his team playing fairly consistent possession based football in a short space of time admittedly.
Either way, I don't personally subscribe to that way of thinking as I believe a manager should always be looking to improve and evolve on their own philosophy rather than constantly trying to undermine every individual oppositions.
Everton fans saying that doesn't mean a great deal to me. Martinez was handed a brilliant platform to start from by Moyes. There's every reason to suggest that Martinez coming in with fresh ideas may be positive for the club but in no way should it come at any sort of revisionism as to why they are where they are and the brilliant job that Moyes did.
Everton played some good stuff particularly last season for me.
I don't believe there has been the leap in quality that some suggest.
I agree that we've seen nothing of it at United but I think that's because he believes there is some mandate and responsibility on his head to keep to our traditional 'wing play' routes.
There really has. It's fair enough if for whatever reason you rate Moyes above Martinez, but to say their football hasn't improved is just daft.
I do rate Moyes over Martinez. I do think Evertons football has improved, just not ad drastically as others believe. I said I dont agree with the 'leap in quality' - I meant I think the extent of improvement is overstated.
He wasn't close to being my first choice for the job and he hasn't convinced me since of course. But I've accepted him, the reasons we picked him, and arent willing to suddenly downplay his previous or exaggerate his successor as some weird justification for sacking him.
I do think Pochettinho has big potential mind. Though I don't think we can really afford another experiment. If the question was to go back in time and hire him instead, I'd definitely consider it.
Yep, Everton were good to watch last season. Martinez has made them a lot better to watch though.
Moyes used a lot of wing-play at Everton too. If you're expecting change in that regard I think you'll be disappointed.
He hasn't just pulled off one good loan deal though. He's pulled off three huge loan deals and one that is too early to decide. If he had only brought Lukaku in on loan I'd say fair enough. He's brought in three others too so I don't think it's fair to say that he won't pull off these big loan signings every season.
I'd also say it's harsh to judge Martinez on this season. People often bang on about managers needing time to settle in. If we take that to be true, then Everton should get better and better sadly.
Fair play. And likewise, if Pochettino had been appointed in the summer I'd have thought it was mental. However, I'd happily welcome him now.
I personally feel that if Martinez' Everton were to finish above Moyes' United it would be such a damning indictment for Moyes. I really do. It's just inexcusable, and yet I can potentially see it happening.
He did, but not with the emphasis he has at United and with a team built around that system. I don't have a problem with wing play either and think width is important.. I just don't think it should be our main or only outlet.
In my 'accept Moyes, think positive' mindset at the start of the season I guess I was just expecting him to bring all the good stuff from Everton naturally and leave the rest behind which was in hindsight incredibly naive.
They had grit, determination and were hard to beat like United. He gave the impression of being a very good man manager and had the ability to motivate his players.
I was expecting him to organize our defense, improve our fitness levels and our off the ball pressing game.
I guess I just hoped that he would have more trust in our players natural ability and instinct and offer them more freedom than he did at Everton. There was an article about him praising the German teams in particular Munich for their play going through the middle.. it impressed me and coupled with the thought of us getting Thiago (or someone of that quality) then I was expecting less of the wing play he used at Everton.
In fairness to Martinez, he shouldn't need to either. There's a good chance they will sign Barry for next season and there's a possibility they will extend Deulofeu's loan.
They've got some good prospects so if he builds well then that won't be necessary.
The concern is the replacing of Jagielka, Distin and Howard though. They don't score enough goals to afford to leak at the back and he had problems there at both Swansea and Wigan. You can't plug the centre-back and goalkeeper positions with loans either (well, I don't think so)
Thats not what everton fans say and i am inclined to agree. Its amazing how Martinez was capable of actually improving everton despite this team not being his yet moyes is stuck to 7th place with SAF team and EPL winners. I guess moyes is able to build teams who can endure the test of time more then SAF right?
Last edited:
Unlike everton who lost their long term manager, coaching staff and best player in CM we are in a transition period. Its fascinating to think that losing SAF was such a hit for Us when one consider that everton are barely noticing the chosen one departure
Nope, just another mediocre manager to another
Let's go for the kill, for all the talk about being a great club yadda yadda, let's start to walk the talk and actually aim for a proper manager instead of hoping to strike jackpot like a lucky bugger.
Let's go for the kill, for all the talk about being a great club yadda yadda, let's start to walk the talk and actually aim for a proper manager instead of hoping to strike jackpot like a lucky bugger.
By whose standard?
Everton "good stuff" was probably the daily norm for half of the spanish teams.
IMO it's because Everton have been dour for years that any half decent attacking improvement got overstated. Mind you Moyes got this on his 10th Season, while the likes of Laudrup, Pochetino, Martinez, and Rodgers all plays attacking football right from the bat.