Look at those players mate, they are all except for Baines average at best and two of them are already over the hill more than any of our current defenders. They had a good unit nothing special they had absolutely no decent back ups either so if one was out they were done. As I said that team was nothing special and definitely wasnt some magical base. They were strong as a team. Individually they were average, now espcially after moyes left should have been the time where they fell to pieces as a back line but it didnt happen that is a testament to Martinez. After all the football they are being asked to play is very technical yet they apart from Baines arent a technical players somehow Martinez has got them to work regardless.
POLL - Would you swap Moyes for Roberto Martinez or Mauricio Pochettino?
- Thread starter FineYoungCasual
- Start date
Look at those players mate, they are all except for Baines average at best and two of them are already over the hill more than any of our current defenders. They had a good unit nothing special they had absolutely no decent back ups either so if one was out they were done. As I said that team was nothing special and definitely wasnt some magical base. They were strong as a team. Individually they were average, now espcially after moyes left should have been the time where they fell to pieces as a back line but it didnt happen that is a testament to Martinez. After all the football they are being asked to play is very technical yet they apart from Baines arent a technical players somehow Martinez has got them to work regardless.
Wouldn't this poll be more interesting if the choices were Pulis or Allardyce?
Now that is a bold presumption, and even if we assumed that was true, how good do you think the new signings (each worth a mere 10m, and non-proven, by the looks of it) would have been? Would they have been as good and world-renowned as Fellaini (from his Everton days) or Mata?
Anyway, the question was about making the decision now, so I think I'm drifting off topic with talks of what they could have done earlier.
Pochettino needs to learn to speak english first.
I never said they were great individually, but I find it bizarre that you think it matters that they're not. Everton's defence of 'average', 'over-the-hill' players cost £18m altogether (including Howard) and conceded fewer goals in the league last season than ours did, thanks to Moyes' coaching. Martinez hasn't 'got them to work', when Moyes left they didn't all suddenly forget how to defend. The defence is playing exactly like they did last season and the season before and it's showing in their numbers.
It's interesting that amongst all the Martinez praise no-one's bringing up that Everton are scoring marginally fewer goals than they were last season, despite having Lukaku who's 1 goal off Fellaini entire tally for last season with 11 games to play.
I voted for all the options. Its an experiment
That's a really interesting stat that needs a lot more publicity in the massive wankfest about Everton's scintillating attacking football under Martinez.
Which is my point. Martinez managed to keep them as solid whilst changing their style of football and the way they played. Those defenders arent defending the same or attacking the same as last season. Theyre managed to adopt martinez tactics which is a testament to him and how he works with them. As I said it would have been soo easy for them to collapse after Moyes since 2 of them are very much over the hill whilst having no back ups and playing a new style of football. Yet Martinez has kept them and evolved them as footballers.
Spot on. I think that he'll be the next big thing in football management.
There should be a fifth option - Swap him for someone else.
I rate Pochettino and Martinez as managers above Moyes, but I wouldn't replace him with them. If we do hopefully give Moyes the boot we'll actually replace him with an elite manager with a proven track record of success (and by success I mean actual tangible honours, trophies...not Pogue's "consistent manager of Everton for 11 years" idea of proven track record.).
I rate Pochettino and Martinez as managers above Moyes, but I wouldn't replace him with them. If we do hopefully give Moyes the boot we'll actually replace him with an elite manager with a proven track record of success (and by success I mean actual tangible honours, trophies...not Pogue's "consistent manager of Everton for 11 years" idea of proven track record.).
I understand your point, but the poll is solely based on the idea of employing a manager who's unproven at the top level but is PL experienced.
There are a number of posts saying "we should aim higher than this", or "if we get rid of Moyes we must get someone proven", a sentiment I mostly agree with - but as stressed in the OP, the point is IF we're going to give the job to someone and let the 'learn on the job', as Moyes is clearly doing, would you RATHER it was one of these two or would you RATHER it was Moyes.
Pls add more poll options ? 
Again, I understand what you're saying, but the question is based around the fact of us having a manager who's learning on the job, and who 'needs time'.
Obviously asking, 'would you replace Moyes with Klopp/Guardiola/Mourinho' is a no brainer. I'm asking IF you could replace him with either of these two managers who would also be 'learning on the job', would you do it?
The whole point is that it requires more thought and consideration.
There's no point arguing with you any further if you actually believe all that. Martinez has barely, if at all, tampered with the role of Everton's back-4 in a defensive sense, if it ain't broken don't fix it. When he's forced to change things due to personnel we'll see how tactically inept he is.
How about this: If, by the end of next season, Everton have conceded fewer than 80 league goals (Moyes' numbers from 2011 - 2013), I'll deliver you a grovelling apology.
Also, you didn't respond to my other point. For all the talk of his great football and 'evolving players as footballers', the changes he's made to the team offensively haven't improved on the figures we saw from Everton last season, despite him having gotten Lukaku in on loan. Any comment?
Really like Pochettino from the little I've seen, but this thread is weird - I don't really agree with any of them right now so I've... abstained.
But that's a bit harsh as apparently the league has improved dramatically hasn't it. Thus for Martinez to even match Everton's point tally last season would be a notable achievement.
I mean, how many more goals has Moyes conceded this season than we did last season? How many less goals have we scored? How will our point tally compare to last season?
Apparently the league strengthening plays a big part in these questions when talking about Moyes - why not for Martinez also?
So effectively you should vote - 'keep Moyes'.
I wouldn't swap Moyes for world. Only exceptions are Tony Pulis and Big Sam.
Fair enough
Attractive football is not all about scoring loads of goals. Martinez is football is more about control than penetration he is more interesting in keeping the ball than someone like Pochettino who is much more about quick turnarounds. Then you have to take into consideration that this is their first season under him. We will see where they finish but they are playing far better football without a fall off in results and thats a testament to Martinez.
That's a really odd argument you're making there. Clutching at straws really.
The only time people make any point about how the league has "improved dramatically" is in relation to the teams competing for the top four. Haven't heard anyone try to claim that scoring goals in general has got more difficult. With City closing in on the most goals ever scored in a PL season it would be a pretty daft argument anyway.
Moyes' record at United has sweet feck all to with whether or not Everton have the goals to back up this apparent feast of sumptuous attacking football they're treating us to under Martinez.
No, I wouldn't swap him for either because we need to aim higher - much like we probably should have done last May.
Not at all, Everton have made a greater push for the Top 4 than Manchester United this season!
Also, if you get a moment, take a look at Everton's record against teams in the Top 6 this season versus ours and then see the glaring difference - so your argument makes literally no sense whatsoever.
It's not even my argument but you're definitely struggling to make sense of it.
@jeff_goldblum made the point that Everton have scored fewer goals under Martinez this season than they did under Moyes last season.
That's a simple fact which goes against this idea that they were super-conservative under Moyes and relentlessly attacking under Martinez. Trying to explain this away by implying that the whole league has suddenly become better at defending over the course of the summer is one of the most ridiculous things I've read on here in ages.
A bit on the fence with this one. While I think managers such as Martinez and Pochettino look better and more exciting in theory, I'm not sure they've really done enough as managers for us to say they'd do a better job than Moyes at all. I like both and think they have strong potential as managers and will only get better, but right now neither are good enough for this job, in the same way you could argue that Moyes isn't good enough. So probably no to the original question.
I know its not exactly relevant to the discussion but can you imagine what would have happened if Martinez had been appointed last summer, instead of Moyes, on the back of his last season with Wigan? I wonder how that wouldve gone down, despite all the scintillating football he played with Wigan and Swansea.
As I stated above, take a look at their record against the Top 6 this season compared to ours.
If that's a little beyond your abilities, simply take a look at the Premier League table itself.
Everton have mounted a greater charge for the top 4 this season than Manchester United.
This suggests that Martinez would do a better job here than your boy is currently doing.
I'm not prepared to put full faith in him after such a poor season, nor would I write him off and swap him for another less experienced manager. Depends what business gets done early in the summer.
Yep. Completely avoided the point being made. Again. Good effort.
Pochettino not Martinez.
I picked the Martinez option and that's only because I don't know enough about Pochettino to make a fair comparison.
The thing when comparing Martinez to Moyes that is the sticking point for me, is that Martinez came in and transformed Everton in a short period of time for the better, while Moyes came here made us worse and complains about needing a host of new players to compete with a team that was a few months removed from being the league champions. Martinez has shown in his past that he can get average players either playing above their abilities or find a way to make them useful in a certain system. Whereas Moyes hasn't a clue how to get the best out of the talented players he does have because if he did things would've changed earlier in the season when these problems were becoming a regular thing.
Martinez would probably stay here for awhile which seemingly is one of the biggest factors in choosing a Manchester United manager and to top it all off he may even hold a british passport or even have English citizenship.
The thing when comparing Martinez to Moyes that is the sticking point for me, is that Martinez came in and transformed Everton in a short period of time for the better, while Moyes came here made us worse and complains about needing a host of new players to compete with a team that was a few months removed from being the league champions. Martinez has shown in his past that he can get average players either playing above their abilities or find a way to make them useful in a certain system. Whereas Moyes hasn't a clue how to get the best out of the talented players he does have because if he did things would've changed earlier in the season when these problems were becoming a regular thing.
Martinez would probably stay here for awhile which seemingly is one of the biggest factors in choosing a Manchester United manager and to top it all off he may even hold a british passport or even have English citizenship.
Hello, welcome. But sane posts are not entertained here. You either have to root for firing Moyes indefinitely, or you should blindly support Moyes for another two years.
The vast majority would have complained, and rightfully so. Whether it be Moyes, Martinez or Pochettino, Manchester United should not be replacing Sir Alex Ferguson with relative no-marks that have achieved practically nothing. The obvious answer was Mourinho. Given that Guardiola had moved to Bayern, he was the only option.
With what we're going through now, I'd expect a manager far more proven at the levels as aspire too.
Having said that, hypothetically, yes, I would take any of those two over Moyes. The question marks regarding the ability to take themselves to a higher level are the same about all three. But at least two of them play the sort of football we'd like to see so that gives them an advantage.
Having said that, hypothetically, yes, I would take any of those two over Moyes. The question marks regarding the ability to take themselves to a higher level are the same about all three. But at least two of them play the sort of football we'd like to see so that gives them an advantage.
Great post, food for thought indeed.
I would've complained, and I would've been concerned...
But we're in a different position now than we were then. And now I actually don't feel too worried about having a manager who lacks top level experience, or who is going to build their own project from scratch - after all, this is what the club are basically telling us Moyes is doing.
I feel that in a way, the club is right - a fresh start is what's needed - I just don't think Moyes is capable of actually giving us a fresh start, nor is he capable of continuing Ferguson's legacy.
If the route we're going down is to employ a manager who's won nothing/not won much, and who has no experience of elite level football, I can accept that, I just think there are still better options than David Moyes.
If you're going to ask the fans to 'sit tight' while the manager learns how to deal with the size of a club, you'd be better to employ someone who inherently plays good football - that way at least the fans can enjoy the journey.
The effectiveness of the newbie system is overrated.
Pogue was promoted years ago.
This would be a fair way of looking at it if the jobs they came into their respective jobs to do were the same, or even comparable. But it ascribes zero relevance to the difficulty Moyes had replacing a living legend. I guess each is entitled to their own opinion on that but I see that as a uniquely difficult challenge, and that isn't wisdom after the fact, I've been saying that since before SAF even retired.
fwiw I voted Hell No!