Oh sorry my mistake, I misread the question... In that case yes, yes I would swap him. For me, it would be with Pochettino for sure. Martinez is ok but has many more flaws in his style. Pochettino has really made S'oton a force to be reckoned with, no longer do teams play them and expect victory without playing to a high level. On top of that, they are also free flowing and play some attractive stuff.
POLL - Would you swap Moyes for Roberto Martinez or Mauricio Pochettino?
- Thread starter FineYoungCasual
- Start date
No, hasn't had his chance yet in my opinion so I wouldn't get rid of him.
Im not hugely sold by Pochetinno, but Martinez is a manager I have always rated - he is someone who has a very definitive footballing philosophy, knows how he wants his teams to play, and has proven to be successful at that.
As with the OP, I am less fussed by the lack of trophies (although I think this season has fallen well below minimum expectation) than I am by the sheer quality of the performances. We have looked clueless and directionless on the field. We are 11 players but not a team.
As with the OP, I am less fussed by the lack of trophies (although I think this season has fallen well below minimum expectation) than I am by the sheer quality of the performances. We have looked clueless and directionless on the field. We are 11 players but not a team.
Klopp at Mainz was a very different situation. Firstly, Klopp got them promoted in the first place, prior to which they'd not been in the top-flight for about 40 years. Secondly, despite them getting relegated, he developed and improved the entire club during his tenure and left it strong enough to get promoted again two seasons later, since when they've been comfortably mid-table.
It's not really comparable to Martinez who took over a team that had finished 10th the previous season and had them scrapping for survival for 4 years until he actually got them relegated. The Cup victory was impressive and Wigan fans will look favourably on Martinez for providing them with some silverware, but winning a Cup whilst performing poorly in the league isn't necessarily a sign of managerial prowess, otherwise Di Matteo would still be in a job.
Similarly, 8 months at Everton where he's got them with a similar points total and league position to what Moyes achieved last season isn't that impressive either given that he's inherited one of the best defensive units in the league, and that they've managed to bring in people Lukaku and Deulofeu, who are both far better than anyone Everton would be able to afford on a permanent deal.
If we had Martinez and then started leaking goals at an alarming rate it wouldnt take long before everyone turned on him. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.
I think it's easier to learn than learning how to play technical, flowing football - see Rodgers now, he's slowly getting to grips with balancing the defence, but they're exciting as feck to watch, and that's what will bring patience from fans.
I'd rather have Martinez in charge of Rooney, Rvp, Mata, Januzaj than almost any other manager in the league. It's just too tempting.
Not for Martinez, evidently.
Wigan shipped goals for fun, throughout his tenure, until he eventually relegated them. He's been fortunate to inherit a squad with some very good, well drilled and experienced defenders. As Brophs pointed out, it remains to be seen if he's capable of building a competent back four of his own.
Honestly what a rubbish thread. I rate Pochettino but I honestly don't see the hype of Martinez. Another manager who is all tiki taka without too much substance. He inherited a very very good defense from Moyes and that has helped him.
Steve Bruce did a better job at Wigan than Martinez. He'll be found out next season me thinks when Lukaku goes back and Distin gets too old. His signings apart from Mccarthy have been pretty crap too.
Steve Bruce did a better job at Wigan than Martinez. He'll be found out next season me thinks when Lukaku goes back and Distin gets too old. His signings apart from Mccarthy have been pretty crap too.
Rodgers is doing well so its easy to see why fans get behind him. If we brought in Martinez and he got us back into the top 4 Im sure people would be delighted - and patient (as far as winning the league is concerned.) But if we were sitting in the same position in the league as we are now, wouldnt people be fretting about how Martinez took Wigan down? Wouldnt people be saying he doesnt have big club experience?
I know people say all they want is attractive football but our fans have been raised on success, Im just not sure if it happened theyd be as happy with it as they think. After all, setting this thread aside, who are most people pining for? Mourinho, by the looks of it. He is about the success, not the style.
For me Martinez is flavour of the month. Pochettino too. Doing well at the moment but we'll see if he can sustain it. If we are going to get rid of Moyes before that magic 2 year (or maybe 18 month) mark, Id want it to be for someone absolutely proven. Otherwise Im just not sure we're solving anything. Its another risk and that is when you really do get into the managerial merry-go-round, 6 months of Martinez and if we were leaking goals and languishing in mid table, the knives are back out and everyone is listing all the reasons he shouldnt be here, fair or otherwise. You say excitement buys patience, I think proven experience would buy more.
Has he? He got Wigan relegated. Assuming the stuff about Moyes getting the same results as last year is true, then that also means Everton are achieving pretty much exactly the same as they did last year, given we're about the same points points and goal difference.
Didier Deschamps is gonna be available after the world cup....would be able to attract french players.......has won ligue 1 with marseille
Jesus hasnt managed for years, he'd be out of touch like King Kenny.
People criticize Moyes for not having experience at the highest level yet would be happy to replace him with people who have even less experience?
In my defense I picked the son of god.
That's very understandable, I'd make the same choice. He would have us playing heavenly football in no time!
I don't think people would have initially gone for Martinez or Pochettino, but rather that they'd be seen as upgrades over Moyes, which is what the thread titles about really.
Besides, I think their attractive playing styles over Moyes' tedious approach to the game rather than experience has made them preferable upgrades in the eyes of many posters.
Oh yes, let's replace one unexperienced at the top flight manager with another one. Pick between one that's unexperienced and that's it and the other that is unexperienced and as a bonus managed to relegate his club.
Hard decision that, surely would fix our problems as well.
Hard decision that, surely would fix our problems as well.
I wouldn't swap him for an unproven manager at the highest level. We shouldn't feck about with our next appointment, we should have learned our lesson.
I must say, for Martinez's name to have come up as a candidate, and for people to be seriously entertaining the idea, shows how dislocated this whole debate has got from reality. It feels like Moyes-hate has taken on a life of its own, so getting rid of him is an end in itself, rather than a means to improving our long term prospects. Even if it was a slight improvement, which incidentally I dont think it would be, you have to consider whether a slight improvement is what we want. If you have a clapped out old banger of a car and you are fed up of all the hassle of constantly breaking down and women on the street laughing at you as you drive past, do you go out and buy a car that is only slightly better? Why bother? If you want to know you are going to get from A to B without needing to call the AA, if you want women in the street to swoon and jump in the car next to you, get a decent bloody car.
I'm not sure if he's a big fan of crosses so thats a plus point in his favour.
Boom boom!
He's all over crosses, everywhere you look. It wouldn't be much different from what we have now.
Another highly embarrasing thread for the caf. He ain't getting sacked, we ain't getting a replacement, and no one cares what is said on the caf....get over it.
Well said. If Moyes cant handle the step up to a massive club - what makes anyone think that these two can? Moyes has a better track record than both of them over a longer period.
A lot of people seem blinded by the suggestion that United are now some kind of "West Ham-esque punt it wide and long" team which now seems to be accepted as fact by a lot of people - as if we were playing lie Barcelona last year under Fergie.
These fellas might prove to be every good managers, only time will tell - but you have it spot on. This suggests an "anyone but Moyes" approach from some fans which is bizzare.
Most certainly, right now I'd swap him for Benitez.
Your argument is utter garbage when you consider that Klopp, Pep, Conte, Rodgers were all Newbies in management when giant clubs decided to take a punt on them and the fans remained patient with all these managers at the start as they were playing a brand of football that the fans wanted to see......Of course appointing a manager that has only a few years experience doesn't work every time but Martinez and Pochettino have showed already in their fledgling careers in management that not only are they exciting the fans with the football they play but they are also heading towards bigger things......In saying that I think the fan pressure on the Glazers would be too high to take a punt on an up and coming manager like pochettino so without doubt Van Gaal will be appointed our next manager in the summer if Moyes gets the boot for failing to change from his unsuccessful hoofball methods between now and the summer
From Manchester United to Everton to ... Newcastle? Holy feck.
I think most people are underrating the magnitude of problems that Moyes is facing now. An aging central defence, no dependable full backs, a non-existent midfield, inconsistent wingers, a summer-transfer-window that started out a full month late, installing a new training routine, a new CEO, pressure of expectations, every opposition always upping their performances against us, the practice of giving underperformers a run of games to redeem themselves, no efficient scouting system, a youth system that needs a revamp, blah blah and blah.
And oh, he's taken it ALL on himself, hands-on.
Now I'm not defending Moyes, I think he's taken too much on himself and then crumbled under the weight. He's overawed by this job, clearly. But I think there's no way a Martinez or a Pochettino could have dealt with a problem of such magnitude either. No way.
People talk about Martinez' beautiful football - and beautiful football needs movement. Apart from RvP, Nani, Kagawa, Welbeck, our players are not capable of enough movement over sustained periods of time to make that happen. And even if we played those four up front, we'd be leaking goals like shit because we don't have the defensive solidity that Everton have behind their attack.
And as for Southampton, they live and die by their ability to keep opponents under pressure when off the ball. And for such pressing, you need mobile energetic midfielders who can run up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, and full backs who can deal with the spaces left barren in front of them. In our squad, Cleverley is the only one who fits the bill, and he's had a shite season, barring a couple of games. So Pochettino would've done feck all with our current squad.
In my opinion, both Martinez and Pochettino, without a proper midfield/defence to support their plans, would have been exposed, too. And then we'd be screaming for their heads 10 months into the job.
Moyes might be really fecking us right now, but the other two are unproved managers with unexposed limitations, too. And none of them deserve to be at United. Taking that into account, I'd rather we stuck with Moyes - at least he knows what the problems are, and has (arguably) started out with a blueprint of how to solve them.
Get a Klopp or a Guardiola, and if they're not available, wait till they are and stick with Moyes till then. No point jumping from the frying pan into the fire. 'Frying pan' must do till we get a successful, proven alternative.
And as for Southampton, they live and die by their ability to keep opponents under pressure when off the ball. And for such pressing, you need mobile energetic midfielders who can run up and down the pitch for 90 minutes, and full backs who can deal with the spaces left barren in front of them. In our squad, Cleverley is the only one who fits the bill, and he's had a shite season, barring a couple of games. So Pochettino would've done feck all with our current squad.
In my opinion, both Martinez and Pochettino, without a proper midfield/defence to support their plans, would have been exposed, too. And then we'd be screaming for their heads 10 months into the job.
Moyes might be really fecking us right now, but the other two are unproved managers with unexposed limitations, too. And none of them deserve to be at United. Taking that into account, I'd rather we stuck with Moyes - at least he knows what the problems are, and has (arguably) started out with a blueprint of how to solve them.
Get a Klopp or a Guardiola, and if they're not available, wait till they are and stick with Moyes till then. No point jumping from the frying pan into the fire. 'Frying pan' must do till we get a successful, proven alternative.
No actually he won't, his contract extends till 2016.
http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/1621892/didier-deschamps-france-contract-extended-2016?cc=3888
As for the poll, I voted the last option as I don't think Pochetinno nor Martinez are ready for a club like Man Utd. I think the poll needs more options though.
It's really not though, it's just the fact for others, similar to myself... we've sat there over the years watching somewhat impartially, we look at the way Martinez for example sets his team up and how he tries to win games, playing technical football being better suited for a top club, than Moyes approach of being solid and tough to beat which is far more suited for a midtable team.
At Everton, they struggled a touch when up against other solid teams, where they had to come out of their comfort zone and press for the advantage, we've clearly seen it with United, the most obvious candidate being Fulham where Moyes has RVP, Rooney, Januzaj and Mata and co. and all he can come up with was percentage balls slung into the box, give Martinez those type of players and watch our football take off.
Martinez's Wigan were relegated after 4 or so years, (winning the FA cup along the way) but the Cafe's mancrush Klopp achieved the same feat in his time with Mainz, similarly the way Martinez attempts to play football isn't suited for a lesser talented, struggling side yet stuck to his principles, the poorer teams in our league which perform best of all are usually overly solid, horrible teams to watch like those under Big Sam and Pullis, their tactics are suited for that type of role and nobody would entertain them being a top 4 manager because their "football ceiling" isn't as high as a Martinez type.
Those other "lesser" sides who try and play football usually end up getting relegated, such as Reading last year, compared to a "solid" Stoke/West Ham, so in that respect, Martinez was always likely to struggle with Wigan, it doesn't automatically mean his potential pedigree for coaching a top side isn't abundantly higher.
i cant believe 42% of people actually wouldnt swap Moyes out.
id take ANY1 over him right now, even Mikey Phelan ffs. anything or anybody could make a difference and a small difference could be key to having a good end to the season.
they wouldnt be my replacements, but at least their football is modern and streets ahead of the drivel Moyes plays. and both look like they know how to sign players and have both short and long term visions....Moyes just sees to have no vision apart from hard working players and crossing.
id take ANY1 over him right now, even Mikey Phelan ffs. anything or anybody could make a difference and a small difference could be key to having a good end to the season.
they wouldnt be my replacements, but at least their football is modern and streets ahead of the drivel Moyes plays. and both look like they know how to sign players and have both short and long term visions....Moyes just sees to have no vision apart from hard working players and crossing.
Apart from the fact that they would not have had Bale and Fabregas as their only transfer targets and instead could have fixed the holes in the team with 5 or 6 signings in one swoop from Spanish and Portuguese speaking players from Central America, South America, Spain and other players too from other countries in Europe.....all for maybe 40 or 50 million quid
I think at this point the only way Moyes can get it right is by hiring a number 2 that can teach him how to set up his teams to play modern attacking football.....of course he needs extra players too but he's already blown 60 million that other managers probably would have gotten far greater value for money with
The argument that Martinez and Pochettino don't have enough experience also is not valid when you look how Liverpool are doing....They booted out a manager who has more experience than anyone in Europe in Hodgson and replaced him with an up and coming novice manager who had a reputation setting up his teams to play the right way
Hodgson was a disaster as he like Moyes takes the Cautious contain your opponents first approach before counter attacking
Hodgson was a disaster as he like Moyes takes the Cautious contain your opponents first approach before counter attacking
Itll certainly be interesting to see how Martinez does over the next few seasons. Maybe he will take Everton up to the next level, sustain the start he has had with them, finish above where Moyes did for a couple of seasons in a row, prove he can get his teams to defend well. I just dont think now is the right time for us to be taking a punt like that. It was different for Liverpool, what did they have to lose? 20 years in the wilderness, out of the CL for a few years, in effect they had to roll the dice and fair play, its working out for them with Rodgers. We arent in the same state as Liverpool though, we still have much higher expectations and I think those expectations might be crippling for an up-and-comer.
That's an impressively detailed parallel universe you've created.
Don't supposed those 5 or 6 signings have names?
I don't see why this would be a stupid question. Martinez and Procettino could easily do what Rodgers has done at Liverpool. They both have the clear defined ideas about football which is necessary. They would both know exactly how and where to invest to produce the football they want to. They are two managers with great potential. Martinez especially, for all the talk of Moyes taking a bit step to United and trying to stand out after a long dynasty Martinez has done that at Everton (obviously not the same standard). Everton werent left any sort of amazing back four, Distin is 36 ffs Jagielka is 31, both getting over the hill, both never top players anyway, after them two they have no decent CB. How is that a good scenario to come into? Midfield wise Martinez had to rebuild it because of the lack of quality, as well as them having no strikers. I dont see how anyone can say Moyes left him with the perfect setup when there was a lot of changes needed to be made within that team far more than Moyes needed with us.
Martinez is a manager with clear knowledge of what he wants he doesnt need time or to learn. At United he would have the funds to go for who ever he wants that is exciting prospect for anyone especially seeing what Rodgers is doing at Liverpool.
Martinez is a manager with clear knowledge of what he wants he doesnt need time or to learn. At United he would have the funds to go for who ever he wants that is exciting prospect for anyone especially seeing what Rodgers is doing at Liverpool.
The Klopp - Martinez comparisons need to do one. Klopp's 7 years with Mainz were far more impressive than what Martinez did at Swansea and Wigan. Klopp took a 2nd division club and transformed them into a side that's now pushes for Europa League qualification. Martinez took over a club that Steve Bruce had taken to 11th the previous season and had them in relegation battles every season since.
Not sure if serious. Everton's back-5 are easily one of the best units in the country and have been for a few years.
Fcuuuuuuk no! ... Why? Just... why?