POLL - Would you swap Moyes for Roberto Martinez or Mauricio Pochettino?

Would you swap Moyes for Martinez or Pochettino?

  • Yes - I'd gladly swap him for either of them

    Votes: 81 31.8%

  • I'd swap him for Martinez but not Pochettino

    Votes: 22 8.6%

  • I'd swap him for Pochettino but not Martinez

    Votes: 37 14.5%

  • No - I wouldn't swap him for either of them

    Votes: 115 45.1%
  • Total voters
    255
I wasn't suggesting that the football they played last season should be encouraging signs for United fans and would be good enough here.

I was referring to Everton specifically. They weren't playing Stoke football last season and they aren't playing Barcelona football this season. I don't believe the gap is particularly big.

They play it out from the back better and can cycle the ball in midfield for longer with a slower tempo. They don't have particularly great attacking movement in comparison to last year I don't think.

Their interchange in the oppositions half last season was where they had improved a lot and it's been similar this year. It's the build up to that where I think Martinez' work is most notable.
 
Alock1 said:
I wasn't suggesting that the football they played last season should be encouraging signs for United fans and would be good enough here.

I was referring to Everton specifically. They weren't playing Stoke football last season and they aren't playing Barcelona football this season. I don't believe the gap is particularly big.

They play it out from the back better and can cycle the ball in midfield for longer with a slower tempo. They don't have particularly great attacking movement in comparison to last year I don't think.

Their interchange in the oppositions half last season was where they had improved a lot and it's been similar this year. It's the build up to that where I think Martinez' work is most notable.
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I think the simple difference between the way Everton are playing and the way we are playing is that levels of confidence in both teams.
 
THe fuss over Martinez is completely stupid.

He managed to get a team with enough ability to win the FA cup last season relegated...nearly got them relegated the season before despite it being apparent that, when they bothered to play, they were better than a majority of Premiership teams.

Everton this season are a worse team than last, and unless they win the FA Cup will end up with absolutely no evidence to suggest to the contrary.

He comes across as a fairly intelligent/nice bloke, but his record as a manager ticks pretty much all of the wrong boxes. People baffle me.
 
Pochettino as well for that matter. He might be good, but he's been in charge for like, a year, and Southampton already had decent players and played good football before he took charge. He's improved them in the short term, but then this time last year you could say the same about Laudrup.
 
noodlehair said:
Everton this season are a worse team than last, and unless they win the FA Cup will end up with absolutely no evidence to suggest to the contrary.
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In what aspect? They are playing better and have more points than last season (in the same number of games). It is very possible that he will break Moyes' record of points which is pretty impresing considering that this is Martinez's first year there.
 
noodlehair said:
THe fuss over Martinez is completely stupid.

He managed to get a team with enough ability to win the FA cup last season relegated...nearly got them relegated the season before despite it being apparent that, when they bothered to play, they were better than a majority of Premiership teams.

Everton this season are a worse team than last, and unless they win the FA Cup will end up with absolutely no evidence to suggest to the contrary.

He comes across as a fairly intelligent/nice bloke, but his record as a manager ticks pretty much all of the wrong boxes. People baffle me.
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So there's no evidence to prove he's better, but there's evidence that proves he's worse? Ok.
 
noodlehair said:
Everton this season are a worse team than last, and unless they win the FA Cup will end up with absolutely no evidence to suggest to the contrary.
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What?

That's like saying Bradford City are a worse team this year than they were last year because they didn't make it to a major cup final.

The only problem Everton have is they don't own two of their best performers this season. But Martinez has managed the players at his disposal very well and they are closer to overachieving than anything. Martinez has taken the foundations Moyes put in place, particularly the back 5 and built a team that can play. Problem is they STILL lack a reliable striker of their own.
 
They've had a few injurys to key players as well over the past few months, namely Barkley, Deulofeu and recently Lukaku, their form has dipped the last few weeks, especially without the power and presence of Lukaku up the top for a few games which is understandable, it'll be interesting to see if their form picks up again for the remainder of the season, they're likely to finish above us, the fact seemingly no Everton fan on the planet wants Moyes back over Martinez speaks volumes of their approach and style this season regardless of stats.

The acid test for Martinez will be how he goes about replacing his aging centreback's in the coming years, and generally restocking the squad in years to come, its clear hes a fantastic coach in a technical sense but in a perverse way, Everton are almost profiting from two managers this year, the rigidity that Moyes drilled into them over the years still being apparent with the technical approach and enthusiasm/positivity Martinez brings.
 
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FujiVice said:
My question is would you swap Moyes from Roberto Mancini?
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Before the start of the season, nope, because I genuinely thought that because Moyes has punched above his weight in Everton, he can do a decent respectable job here (a consistent fourth place with possibly challenging for title at times) and I have a big dislike for Mancini. He must be one of the luckiest man in football, winning a few title in Serie A when they had no challenge from other teams and at times struggling from a weak Roma who spend less than half of Inter. Then winning the title at City when he had a blank checkue. But with Moyes doing a Hodgson here, I think that I have re-evaluated my opinions on them and maybe it isn't that easy to win even if you have a better team. However, I don't think that I would take a straight swap. Would prefer tens of managers before Mancini.
 
Neither of those two are proven either though, are they.

I'd happily stick with Moyes if we start to show signs of being a strong, cohesive unit, that knows how to play football. Results are marginally less important atm.
 
It's incredible how people have convinced themselves that 'going through the middle' and/or short passing alone constitutes attacking football. Anyone who's watched Swansea in the last two years knows exactly how fatuous that contention is.

Worse still, people think anything other than that, equals route one. And, they manage to hold these beliefs while simultaneously salivating over Bayern and Dortmund. It beggars belief.

Combine this with the age old fickleness, and infatuation with flavors of the month, and you get a poll like this.
 
Moonwalker said:
It's incredible how people have convinced themselves that 'going through the middle' and/or short passing alone constitutes attacking football. Anyone who's watched Swansea in the last two years knows exactly how fatuous that contention is.

Worse still, people think anything other than that, equals route one. And, they manage to hold these beliefs while simultaneously salivating over Bayern and Dortmund. It beggars belief.

Combine this with the age old fickleness, and infatuation with flavors of the month, and you get a poll like this.
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Has anyone here ever said that?
 
Moonwalker said:
It's incredible how people have convinced themselves that 'going through the middle' and/or short passing alone constitutes attacking football. Anyone who's watched Swansea in the last two years knows exactly how fatuous that contention is.

Worse still, people think anything other than that, equals route one. And, they manage to hold these beliefs while simultaneously salivating over Bayern and Dortmund. It beggars belief.

Combine this with the age old fickleness, and infatuation with flavors of the month, and you get a poll like this.
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Quite!

We've actually done quite well over the last few decades with our obsession of wing play - the very formation I've heard being called archaic a number of times on this forum.
 
The problem isn't not playing through the middle, the problem is we're not able to play through the middle. You can't just rely 100% on just one area of the pitch or you become too predictable. With players like Mata, Januzaj, RVP, Kagawa and Rooney you expect our team to be better at opening teams up but yet we still fail to find goal scoring opportunities against teams in the bottom half of the table. I personally think that things like these are tactical more than anything and it's the manager's job to show the players how to make space for others and work as a unit to create chances. In modern football, teams are becoming more complete and can create chances from anywhere on the pitch and we also need to adapt to modern times and be able to do so as well.

If we ever sack Moyes, I would prefer if we got a proven winner rather than another gamble.
 
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The problem isnt wing play or not. No one would criticize Moyes if our wing play was quick and well-planned, and led to exciting goals. But Moyes' idea of wing play is without any sort of finesse. It literally is "give Tony or Ashley the ball and get in the box, then hope for the best".

If we had shite players with no ability to dribble or play quick one-twos and every match saw those players trying without a real plan to play through the middle people would be equally irate.

The situation is that we do have players with the ability to play through the middle, players who have shown over the years that they excel at that kind of football, yet Moyes over and over and over send out teams focused on width. And it fails over and over and over.
 
I really dont see the argument "we are Manchester United, we have always played with width and its in our DNA". Its not even a proper argument, just historical romanticising. The fans dont care about wide or narrow play - we care about good football. Sticking to a non-working formula (wide play) and then make excuses about "the Manchester United way" to gloss over a lack of ability from the manager to make the best of the available personell is taking the fans for idiots.
 
Bross said:
But Moyes' idea of wing play is without any sort of finesse. It literally is "give Tony or Ashley the ball and get in the box, then hope for the best".
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No manager would ever give such simplistic instructions, even Moyes. Basically our wingers, full backs, and midfield have underperformed this season. The team has just not clicked as a unit. If I knew the reasons why I'd be now preparing a team to play this afternoon.
 
Sultan said:
No manager would ever give such simplistic instructions, even Moyes. Basically our wingers, full backs, and midfield have underperformed this season. The team has just not clicked as a unit. If I knew the reasons why I'd be now preparing a team to play this afternoon.
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Its sad that its even possible to believe that his tactics are that shallow. But when what we see from the team week in week out is what it is its hard to believe otherwise.
 
Certainly not, no. If the club were to get rid of Moyes (I don't think they will, even in the summer) then I would want a top tier manager coming in. Neither of the two mentioned are what I would consider top tier.
 
I think Pochettino is an excellent coach. Managed to communicate and teach his ideas to some pretty average players at Southampton in a very short time. Tactically he's very good and seems to have the necessary kind of dickishness to do well at a big club.

There aren't that many other top class coaches available right now so I would be very happy if the club went that way.
 
Bross said:
I really dont see the argument "we are Manchester United, we have always played with width and its in our DNA". Its not even a proper argument, just historical romanticising. The fans dont care about wide or narrow play - we care about good football. Sticking to a non-working formula (wide play) and then make excuses about "the Manchester United way" to gloss over a lack of ability from the manager to make the best of the available personell is taking the fans for idiots.
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Quite!
 
ISSYNAZAR said:
What?

That's like saying Bradford City are a worse team this year than they were last year because they didn't make it to a major cup final.

The only problem Everton have is they don't own two of their best performers this season. But Martinez has managed the players at his disposal very well and they are closer to overachieving than anything. Martinez has taken the foundations Moyes put in place, particularly the back 5 and built a team that can play. Problem is they STILL lack a reliable striker of their own.
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Everton could play last season. In fact, you have to go back some way to find an Everton team that couldn't play football. I like how history re-invents itself to fit with people's opinions on here. And trying to ignore that one of their most important players is actually a Chelsea player is silly. The best thing they have going for them this season is Ross Barkley, who would have emerged regardless of who the manager was.

They'll finish 5th at best which wouldn't be their best league finish of recent years. As it turns out they've also been thrashed out of the FA Cup by a capitulating Arsenal side. At best it's a similar season to last for them.

Sorry but the ignorance to reality on here this season is astounding. When all the noise initially started about how much Everton had improved under Martinez, they had exactly the same number of points as at the same stage last season.

The absurdness of actually suggesting appointing someone to manage Manchester United immediately after they'd managed to get a semi decent side relegated also needs attention drawing to it. Anyone who thinks this would have been a good idea needs to be identified in order to make sure no one ever acts on any of their opinions.
 
noodlehair said:
Everton could play last season. In fact, you have to go back some way to find an Everton team that couldn't play football. I like how history re-invents itself to fit with people's opinions on here. And trying to ignore that one of their most important players is actually a Chelsea player is silly. The best thing they have going for them this season is Ross Barkley, who would have emerged regardless of who the manager was.

They'll finish 5th at best which wouldn't be their best league finish of recent years. As it turns out they've also been thrashed out of the FA Cup by a capitulating Arsenal side. At best it's a similar season to last for them.

Sorry but the ignorance to reality on here this season is astounding. When all the noise initially started about how much Everton had improved under Martinez, they had exactly the same number of points as at the same stage last season.

The absurdness of actually suggesting appointing someone to manage Manchester United immediately after they'd managed to get a semi decent side relegated also needs attention drawing to it. Anyone who thinks this would have been a good idea needs to be identified in order to make sure no one ever acts on any of their opinions.
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Everything here is true. This thread is the worst type of irrational nonsense. I'm absolutely willing to accept that the likes of Guardiola/Mourinho are far superior coaches to Moyes, but this thread ranks just behind the one where Trappatoni was seriously suggested as a successor in terms of deludedness
 
Crashoutcassius said:
Everything here is true. This thread is the worst type of irrational nonsense. I'm absolutely willing to accept that the likes of Guardiola/Mourinho are far superior coaches to Moyes, but this thread ranks just behind the one where Trappatoni was seriously suggested as a successor in terms of deludedness
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If Martinez' Everton were to finish above us surely it wouldn't be irrational to suggest that he'd do better at United than Moyes, would it?
 
FineYoungCasual said:
Wow, really?

If Martinez finished above us with that Everton side you'd effectively excuse it?
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excuse it? what are you on about?

The Martinez thing annoys me above all else. Imagine the uproar if, instead of talking someone who worked wonders with a bottom of the table club, we took someone who in the season previous got a similar club relegated? People would have gone ballistic. And now people say 'Martinez would have done a better job here' but their argument is based on nothing that has happened but just what they reckon. Martinez' Everton are doing no better than Moyes' Everton did and he has big challenges ahead as the part of the team Moyes built gets old. Let's wait and see if he does a better job at Everton than Moyes did, because in the years previous he certainly did a far far worse job
 
Crashoutcassius said:
excuse it? what are you on about?

The Martinez thing annoys me above all else. Imagine the uproar if, instead of talking someone who worked wonders with a bottom of the table club, we took someone who in the season previous got a similar club relegated? People would have gone ballistic. And now people say 'Martinez would have done a better job here' but their argument is based on nothing that has happened but just what they reckon. Martinez' Everton are doing no better than Moyes' Everton did and he has big challenges ahead as the part of the team Moyes built gets old. Let's wait and see if he does a better job at Everton than Moyes did, because in the years previous he certainly did a far far worse job
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I dunno man, taking over a club that has been run by one man for over 10 years - and then changing the way they play and making it more technical and pleasing to watch, and then pushing for Top 4 in a season of dramatic improvement throughout the league. That's some achievement.

I don't think it will happen due to the quality and value of our team, but IF he were to finish above Moyes' United I'd certainly accept that he'd do a better job here than Moyes has done.
 
FineYoungCasual said:
I dunno man, taking over a club that has been run by one man for over 10 years - and then changing the way they play and making it more technical and pleasing to watch, and then pushing for Top 4 in a season of dramatic improvement throughout the league. That's some achievement.

I don't think it will happen due to the quality and value of our team, but IF he were to finish above Moyes' United I'd certainly accept that he'd do a better job here than Moyes has done.
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We'll see if pleasing to watch is consolation to Everton fans if they go the way his last club went when his best players leave and get old - something moyes had to deal with every year. The task is ahead of Martinez, in previous years he's failed, he's a nice man and a talented young manager so I hope he doesn't fail again
 
Crashoutcassius said:
We'll see if pleasing to watch is consolation to Everton fans if they go the way his last club went when his best players leave and get old - something moyes had to deal with every year. The task is ahead of Martinez, in previous years he's failed, he's a nice man and a talented young manager so I hope he doesn't fail again
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Fair enough. Though to be fair, I don't think Wigan fans view his time there as a failure.

And likewise, I don't think he'll be involved in relegation battles at Everton.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
We'll see if pleasing to watch is consolation to Everton fans if they go the way his last club went when his best players leave and get old - something moyes had to deal with every year. The task is ahead of Martinez, in previous years he's failed, he's a nice man and a talented young manager so I hope he doesn't fail again
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Indeed. Good football is nice, but results matter.

Moyes did well to build a squad fir relatively decent money but Martinez is unproven in the transfer market. Most of the ex Wigan players he's brought in dont seem up to much. Lukaku was a no brainer, and fair play on Barry. He might struggle to keep the likes if those two and replacing them will be a big test.
 
FineYoungCasual said:
Fair enough. Though to be fair, I don't think Wigan fans view his time there as a failure.

And likewise, I don't think he'll be involved in relegation battles at Everton.
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I agree he'll keep Everton away from trouble. The question is whether he can take them on from where Moyes had them.
 
Crashoutcassius said:
We'll see if pleasing to watch is consolation to Everton fans if they go the way his last club went when his best players leave and get old - something moyes had to deal with every year. The task is ahead of Martinez, in previous years he's failed, he's a nice man and a talented young manager so I hope he doesn't fail again
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To be fair to Martinez, he lost Everton's best player in the summer and they actually improved. People are extremely bitter when it come to him, for the only reason that he is doing better than Moyes with an inferior team.

Two things I have noticed here:

1) In Moyes defense, people use the argument that the league is stronger than this year so it isn't that bad that we're not amongst the top teams. Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Arsenal have improved. On the other side, they don't use this argument when it comes to Martinez. Despite that Everton has more points than in any season under Moyes (with the same number of games) he isn't doing that great because they are only in 6th positions and Moyes in the past has done better (like finishing 4th with 58 points). Martinez won't beat that record this year - or ever - but it looks pretty sure that he will beat Moyes' all time point record.

2) Despite Moyes' horrific start, it isn't that bad because he has the unique task of replacing a manager who was here for a long long time. Things will get better if we give him time and he makes his own team. On the other side, Martinez who had replaced a manager who was there for a long long time, is doing a great job and immediately made the team his own. But this should not count. Wait for a few years until he has to change the team and see how he does, then we can judge him. The hypocrisy of posters here is absurd.

And I am not even starting to talk about how Everton is a much more exciting team to watch, how they finally beat a top team away - something that Moyes never did - and surprise, surprise the team they beat was lead by Moyes and how like Moyes, Martinez had to deal with a negative net transfer spent too.
 
Revan said:
To be fair to Martinez, he lost Everton's best player in the summer and they actually improved. People are extremely bitter when it come to him, for the only reason that he is doing better than Moyes with an inferior team.

Two things I have noticed here:

1) In Moyes defense, people use the argument that the league is stronger than this year so it isn't that bad that we're not amongst the top teams. Chelsea, City, Liverpool and Arsenal have improved. On the other side, they don't use this argument when it comes to Martinez. Despite that Everton has more points than in any season under Moyes (with the same number of games) he isn't doing that great because they are only in 6th positions and Moyes in the past has done better (like finishing 4th with 58 points). Martinez won't beat that record this year - or ever - but it looks pretty sure that he will beat Moyes' all time point record.

2) Despite Moyes' horrific start, it isn't that bad because he has the unique task of replacing a manager who was here for a long long time. Things will get better if we give him time and he makes his own team. On the other side, Martinez who had replaced a manager who was there for a long long time, is doing a great job and immediately made the team his own. But this should not count. Wait for a few years until he has to change the team and see how he does, then we can judge him. The hypocrisy of posters here is absurd.

And I am not even starting to talk about how Everton is a much more exciting team to watch, how they finally beat a top team away - something that Moyes never did - and surprise, surprise the team they beat was lead by Moyes and how like Moyes, Martinez had to deal with a negative net transfer spent too.
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Absolutely fantastic post. There is much bitterness and absurd hypocrisy when it comes to talking about Martinez at Everton this season.
 
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