Pogba and Kouyate the 'athletic specimens'| Media stereotypes Part II

Sterling Archer

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Even before I could start to get frustrated with the soon to be nil-nil from last night's match, I was shocked to hear one of the announcer's comments regarding Pogba and Kouyate matched up in the midfield:



Commentator 1: "Have to say, you'd pay to watch Kouyate against Pogba, wouldn't you? ... Those are two of the liveliest, most athletic specimens in our league. Great athletes the pair of them."
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Not the slightest bit of debate here for me. It's explicit utterly shameful. It shows how deeply rooted this racist perspective is. I got the impression the other commentator felt similarly, and you can hear him trying to bring the discussion back to something resembling appropriate,

Commentator 2: "They are...Very different...Kouyate isn't blessed with anything like the ability Pogba is in possession."
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This goes back to that excellent piece from the summer about the language used by pundits, media and fans when describing black players.

For anyone needing a refresher, here is the thread and link to the piece:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/pow...nt-lukaku-debunking-media-stereotypes.431869/

http://therepublikofmancunia.com/powerful-pogba-and-unintelligent-lukaku/

For me, there is no gray area with the comments from the West Ham game. The connotation is clear. I wonder if anyone else noticed and felt as affected by it?

P.S.
The broadcast is from the US. About 24 minutes in. Can't recall the names of the match commentators.
 
Yup. The darker the players complexion is, the less "technically gifted" they become and the more "physically dominant". It's a disgrace.

Shits just deep routed, the cracks show in cases like this.
 
Noticed this as well. It's all well and good to praise a player's athleticism. It's another thing to do so in very coded racist language. Such an odd thing to hear during a football broadcast, it threw me off.
 
It’s also rare that you hear them call a black player an “intelligent footballer”. It’s always about grit and determination.
 
I've said this from time ago. I watched the game and yes I immediately picked up on it. For years pundits and media have been labelling black players with only attributes of strength and pace. Nothing else. It's just straight racial stereotyping. It's the same BS they used to describe Yaya Toure with despite him being one of the most technically gifted players to ever grace this league. Also all young black midfielders and strikers are the new 'Vieira' and 'Drogba' even if their attributes are nothing similar. It's just lazy and a lack of awareness on their behalf.
 
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Has any commentator or pundit said something similar about Mané? He isn't really tall or strong even tho he has pace tho, so i was just wondering what they could say.

Not to say it isn't a thing, but Pogba and Kouyate are both very big and strong. I could have said the same thing and not be racist. But i agree, it's stems from the before-for time when those stereotypes was used casually by majorities, it's still going on but more subtle so it is indeed deeply rooted.
 
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Don't agree that there's anything in it. You don't see many footballers as athletically well built as Pogba. The guy is an athletic specimen, as are Ronaldo, Phelps etc. Could easily see it being said about them too.

If you're well built and able to physically impose yourself on the game, which Pogba obviously does (as can Lukaku), then I don't why it's an issue to suggest that they're physically dominant. It's obviously a part of both their games.
 
Because of his physique and athleticism some people expect Pogba to be an all action box to box midfielder and that has never been his game.
 
MikeKing said:
Has any commentator or pundit said something similar about Mané? He isn't really tall or strong even tho he has pace tho, so i was just wondering what they could say.

Not to say it isn't a thing, but Pogba and Kouyate are both very big and strong. I could have said the same thing and not be racist. But i agree, it's stems from the before-for time when those stereotypes was used casually by majorities, it's still going on but more subtle so it is indeed deeply rooted.
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I think theres also just not many 6'3+ physically strong white midfielders who the label can be applied to.

I'm actually trying to think now, what white ones are there?
 
abdo99 said:
I've said this from time ago. I watched the game and yes I immediately picked up on it. For years pundits and media have been labelling black players with only attributes of strength and pace. Nothing else. It's just straight racial stereotyping. It's the same BS they used to describe Yaya Toure with despite him being one of the most technically gifted players to ever grace this league.
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Not sure Pele had this problem? Or Drogba, or Henry, or Valencia when he could cross, or Evra, Rio etc.
 
Yeah i've heard this said about a lot of black players, always "strength" "dominant" "athletic" never "intelligent" or "smart", i wouldnt be surprised if half of these commentators were universally adored legend and getting turned on by imagining them fecking their wives. You could argue that those words are right for a tall defensive mid but the same never gets said about the likes of Matic etc
 
I do find it hilarious when Herrera is described as intelligent for making the kind of pass Pogba makes several times a game.
 
I actually did enjoy Kouyate and Pogba's battle, you could see that Kouyate really wanted to stop Pogba and had it as a personal target. Even though Pogba didn't have a good game(sloppy passing) I loved the way he fought back, it's not his natural game after all. No one could question Pogba's effort versus West Ham that's for sure.

Whether it is racist to say what the commentator said I don't really agree tbh.
 
VeevaVee said:
Not sure Pele had this problem? Or Drogba, or Henry, or Valencia when he could cross, or Evra, Rio etc.
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Yeah but you have to disregard those. They don’t suit the narrative and therefore don’t count. Sorry.
 
limerickcitykid said:
I think theres also just not many 6'3+ physically strong white midfielders who the label can be applied to.

I'm actually trying to think now, what white ones are there?
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Not that many I don't think. I actually checked on a site and it seems the only ones to fit the criteria in the PL plays for us. Matic, Fellaini, McTominay. None of which is as quick or agile as Pogba and Kouyate. Only Pogba and Matic has good technique, and both are often labeled as physical players, I don't think neither of them gets recognised for everything they bring. But thats just my opinion.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
Pfft...are you for real, homie?
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Most acknowledge that Drogba was a very good footballer and not purely reliant on physicality, even though it was a major part of his game.
 
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Haven't really noticed this pattern but being white perhaps I'm not so sensitive to it, so it's probably no wonder.

I do think that there's a distinction to be made between an intelligent footballer and an intelligent person, one does not necessarily include the other. Intelligence when used in footballing terms is a pretty vague concept that incorporates many different things. IMO having good decision-making and consistency would be the most important factors to labelling a footballer as intelligent, something that Lukaku and Pogba have both definitely struggled with.

If we're being honest, I doubt many on here would have labelled Pogba as an intelligent player. Nobody's denying his footballing talents but we're constantly bemoaning his decision-making in games and rightly so. I might be irked by it as a United-fan but I couldn't really fault anyone at this point for calling him an unintelligent player.

I can see it being more of a case with Lukaku maybe, I think he's shown alot of growth during the course of the season. But then he has also shown to get regularly 'outsmarted' by defenders who often enough find it quite easy marking him out of games. So I could see why people might label that as a form of 'unintelligent' play, not being able to adapt your style and impose yourself on games.

Thing is though that they're both really young aswell so a certain level of immaturity or naivety in their game should be expected. Maybe you could just file the whole thing under lazy punditry, I mean they are quite obviously physically imposing guys.
 
VeevaVee said:
Not sure Pele had this problem? Or Drogba, or Henry, or Valencia when he could cross, or Evra, Rio etc.
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What does pulling out a few examples where in your view it doesn't happen prove? I'm pretty sure nobody is claiming this occurs 100% of the time for all black players. If you see a racist incident in the news would you claim racism doesn't exist by pointing out examples in society where people were not racist? Obviously not.

I've noticed it with Pogba and Yaya. Two brilliantly gifted technical footballers who are often reduced to their physical attributes in punditry.

BT Sport did a segment after the city game discussing Pogba for 10 minutes and repeatedly described his athleticism as "clearly his best attribute". Not once did they talk about his passing ability or creativity, or any other attribute that wasn't physical, and this is a guy who just won the game for us and got what 14 assists this year from centre mid?
 
So are you not allowed to say that sportsmen are "great athletes" or "athletic specimen" if they are black? This is not racist whatsoever in my humble opinion. Both players are tall, strong and very athletic, the same sort of thing has been said about someone like Zlatan or Cristiano Ronaldo. I do agree that players can be stereotyped because of their size and physicality and maybe skin colour, but I think this is a poor example. Lukaku for example is a very intelligent player but you usually hear more about his impressive strength, pace and physicality. Is this because of his skin colour though, or is it just because he actually does have impressive physical attributes and these just happen to be more noticed by anyone because you can actually see them.

What I'm basically saying is it could be racist, or it could not be, but there is nothing inherently racist about complimenting somebody's physicality or speed. Theres no way you can prove its racist either. In fact, it would probably be MORE racist holding back from complimenting a player because they are black and you "don't want to come across as a racist".

In the Aussie Rules Football league there was an Aboriginal (black) player who sooked about racism at matches because he was booed by opposition supporters. Being also a fan of the specific club that played his team when the controversy was at its peak, we boo that guy because the fans don't like him, because we think hes a prick/sook/actor for free kicks/c**t, its got nothing to do with his race. Frankly if I was at a football (soccer) match and my team was playing barca, and our fans were booing suarez, i would bloody boo him, cos i cant stand the prick. The same goes for dele alli, and would go for any black player with a comparable personality to those two.

Are you not allowed to boo players if they are black?

That might seem like a different topic/question, but its the same thing, its treating someone differently because they are a different race or ethnicity.

Can you prove that Pogba and Kouyate are treated differently from how any tall, athletic and physically strong white player would be treated?
 
Tarrou said:
What does pulling out a few examples where in your view it doesn't happen prove? I'm pretty sure nobody is claiming this occurs 100% of the time for all black players. If you see a racist incident in the news would you claim racism doesn't exist by pointing out examples in society where people were not racist? Obviously not.

I've noticed it with Pogba and Yaya. Two brilliantly gifted technical footballers who are often reduced to their physical attributes in punditry.

BT Sport did a segment after the city game discussing Pogba for 10 minutes and repeatedly described his athleticism as "clearly his best attribute". Not once did they talk about his passing ability or creativity, or any other attribute that wasn't physical, and this is a guy who just won the game for us and got what 14 assists this year from centre mid?
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Because their atheticism is arguably their attribute that stands out the most? I mean look at the stature and physicality of those two players compared to the rest/most footballers. I hear people talk about Cristiano Ronaldo's physique and athleticism all the time. Granted you also hear a lot about how clinical he is, but I also hear about Pogba's passing range a decent amount.
 
SpyLuke10 said:
Because their atheticism is arguably their attribute that stands out the most? I mean look at the stature and physicality of those two players compared to the rest/most footballers. I hear people talk about Cristiano Ronaldo's physique and athleticism all the time. Granted you also hear a lot about how clinical he is, but I also hear about Pogba's passing range a decent amount.
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I think their technique stands out the most, two of the best ever in the PL for me. That is subjective of course but you can't really deny they both have excellent technique, and excellent creative passing. And neither are given enough credit it for it, in my opinion.
 
Tarrou said:
I think their technique stands out the most, two of the best ever in the PL for me. That is subjective of course but you can't really deny they both have excellent technique, and excellent creative passing. And neither are given enough credit it for it, in my opinion.
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Yaya gets huge credit for his skills. Pogba not so much because, let's be honest, he's not really shown it in the Prem all that consistently.
 
The average black player will have comments like 'brain dead' or 'beast' given towards them more than almost any white player imo. For some reason I don't find beast as being disrespectful as the former. There are a shitload of terrible white players who escape the brain dead tag despite being as bad as their black counterparts, this irks me. Calling a player a beast is a compliment on a players physical attributes or their level of play so is not as derogatory imo, but still seems to be used more for the talented black players.

Maybe I am I completely wrong here btw, I would love to hear from our black posters how they perceive it.
 
They are not similar players but they were having a serious wrestling match and physical battle in that game. I watched the English commentary and think Tyler said something similar.

MikeKing said:
Not that many I don't think. I actually checked on a site and it seems the only ones to fit the criteria in the PL plays for us. Matic, Fellaini, McTominay. None of which is as quick or agile as Pogba and Kouyate. Only Pogba and Matic has good technique, and both are often labeled as physical players, I don't think neither of them gets recognised for everything they bring. But thats just my opinion.
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Funnily enough in that game Neville said McTomminay wasn’t good enough on the ball to play midfield and should play centre back where his physical attributes count more. McTomminay then proceed to have his four best ever touches on the ball in a United shirt.
 
I do think it exists but not in this case at all, they're just two big strong lads. There's plenty of black players in the league who get remarked for their technical ability too.
 
Sterling Archer said:
Even before I could start to get frustrated with the soon to be nil-nil from last night's match, I was shocked to hear one of the announcer's comments regarding Pogba and Kouyate matched up in the midfield:





Not the slightest bit of debate here for me. It's explicit utterly shameful. It shows how deeply rooted this racist perspective is. I got the impression the other commentator felt similarly, and you can hear him trying to bring the discussion back to something resembling appropriate,



This goes back to that excellent piece from the summer about the language used by pundits, media and fans when describing black players.

For anyone needing a refresher, here is the thread and link to the piece:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/pow...nt-lukaku-debunking-media-stereotypes.431869/

http://therepublikofmancunia.com/powerful-pogba-and-unintelligent-lukaku/

For me, there is no gray area with the comments from the West Ham game. The connotation is clear. I wonder if anyone else noticed and felt as affected by it?

P.S.
The broadcast is from the US. About 24 minutes in. Can't recall the names of the match commentators.
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I was watching and thought exactly the same as you. Lazy, stereotypical and wildly inaccurate commentating. It was annoyingly bad.
 
VeevaVee said:
Don't agree that there's anything in it. You don't see many footballers as athletically well built as Pogba. The guy is an athletic specimen, as are Ronaldo, Phelps etc. Could easily see it being said about them too.

If you're well built and able to physically impose yourself on the game, which Pogba obviously does (as can Lukaku), then I don't why it's an issue to suggest that they're physically dominant. It's obviously a part of both their games.
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Because Pogba is one of the most technically gifted players in the league. Kouyate isn’t!

But hey, they’re both big and black so let’s put them in the same category...
 
It isn’t racist at all. The fact is that Pogba is 6 foot 3 and is very muscular. Kouyate is a big muscular lad as well. They are both also centre midfielders for their teams. They were clearly being compared as they are in the same position.

Clutching at straws trying to find racism from them comments. Racism is abuse of a person because of their race, this is not racism. If anything it is a slight stereotype but stereotype isn’t always a racist thing.
 
It’s so obviously racist. In American sports atleast they are talking about it so people seem to be getting aware of it. In English football it seems so angrained in peoples minds that you see people in this thread jumping to defend it .

For those saying race has nothing to do with it, do you think we all making it up?
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
It isn’t racist at all. The fact is that Pogba is 6 foot 3 and is very muscular. Kouyate is a big muscular lad as well. They are both also centre midfielders for their teams. They were clearly being compared as they are in the same position.

Clutching at straws trying to find racism from them comments. Racism is abuse of a person because of their race, this is not racism. If anything it is a slight stereotype but stereotype isn’t always a racist thing.
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Not to nitpick, but Pogba isn’t that muscular - he’s just ripped as feck.

And yes, the OP is correct, imo.
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
It isn’t racist at all. The fact is that Pogba is 6 foot 3 and is very muscular. Kouyate is a big muscular lad as well. They are both also centre midfielders for their teams. They were clearly being compared as they are in the same position.

Clutching at straws trying to find racism from them comments. Racism is abuse of a person because of their race, this is not racism. If anything it is a slight stereotype but stereotype isn’t always a racist thing.
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It's definitely at least slightly racist. It might not be intentionally racist, but it's still racist.
 
I picked up on that and it isn't the first time either. I'm not the type to brandish labels like racist around but there are definitely some not so subtle undertones there.
 
The BlackGaijin said:
It’s so obviously racist. In American sports atleast they are talking about it so people seem to be getting aware of it. In English football it seems so angrained in peoples minds that you see people in this thread jumping to defend it .

For those saying race has nothing to do with it, do you think we all making it up?
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I think you’re making it up, in this case at least. Both players are clearly very athletic, what’s wrong with stating that? Is it wrong to speak about how strong somebody is because of the colour of their skin? The commentator did not mention anything regarding their ethnicity - I think you’ve taken what he has said out of context.
 
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