[Pughnichi]

Everyone on here collectively acknowledges that our defence is shit, and yet when anybody criticises individuals in that defence for being shit, there are always people who jump to their defence to label them a useful option to have. So which is it? Are all our defenders useful to have, in which case our defence must be fine as it is, or is our defence shit? Can't have it both ways. If we have a poor defence then it stands to reason we must have poor defenders that need binning off.

I think the problem is that all our defenders are good back up options and therefore it’s the not knowing which ones to get rid of that’s the problem. We’ve accumulated too many average Jo’s that if put up for sale tomorrow the likes of West Ham, Everton, Leicester would likely be interested...mid table teams. A squad full of mid table defenders is always gonna look shaky and concede. I’d be happy for Rojo to stay...if he was 4th choice. Likewise Jones, Smalling and up until recently Lindelof. We need 2 absolute starters and in an ideal world 1 experienced cover and 1 younger prospect

 

[finneh]

I think its you that might have the transfer fee/wages relation wrong. A 100k contract over 4+1 year option is slightly less than 25m but that is the projected cost. Its not 55-65m. It might not even be 25m if you move him on after say 2 or 3 years. The correct way of looking at it is that he will cost the buying club or us a ltb less than 5m per year. That is the effect his contract will have on the wage bill yearly and that is what is relevant for any club.
The transfer fee is not a cost. Its an investment for the buying club. Jones is 27 (EDIT, sorry Philip you are actually 26 for a while longer), one year younger than Koulibaly, who many - me included - would have no problem investing 100m plus in. Jones age means that you dont need to consider asset value depreciation until into maybe into the third year of his contract. Same with Koulibaly btw.
The transfer market today compared to just two years ago and def compared to the Andy Carroll days is a completely different animal. There is a lot of money in the PL and a 27 year old England international CB would be a hot property on the market. Its a doable transfer for almost every PL-club today and I would certainly not rule out top-6 clubs like Spurs, who are facing a major dilemma with their homegrown quota already; being interested.
This undervaluing of our own players is weird.

The point is you can't move him on on £100k a week and certainly couldn't bank on it with his injury record. Someone buying Jones for £40m would have to factor in £65m over a 5 year contract.

Only looking at Jones contract as £5m annually is like looking at a brand new iPhone contract as only £50 a month. That might be fine month one when it's a shiney brand new phone... But do you really want to be paying £50 in 20 months time when the phone is out of date, scratched, scraped and patently awful value for money compared with someone else's brand new phone costing the same. The phone is £1200 over the 2 year contract... There's no escaping that.

 

[stevoc]

To be fair, Jones had 18 defensive interventions (aerials won, tackles, interceptions clearances and blocks) against Cardiff compared to Lindelof's 5. He also had 58 passes with a 94.8% success rate compared to Lindelof's 47 at 76.6%. I know that statistics don't tell the whole story, but I'd be interested in your explanation of Lindelof's apparent superiority in the eyes of the Caf majority.

Are fans are sitting there watching games with pen and paper jotting down stats?

Obviously not the vast majority of people will view the match and see things they are impressed by and form an opinion from that.

You're half right stats don't tell the whole story, they barely tell you even half of it. A lot of them are meaningless in general, which is why i put little stock in the player ratings from sites like Whoscored.

As an example you say Jones had a better pass completion rate, ok but maybe Lindelof tried more risky longer range passes which is why is % is lower and if some of those risky passes came off that sort of stuff sticks in peoples minds.

Also you say Jones had more defensive interventions, did more of Cardiffs attacking come down his side?

Did other United players on Lindelof's side ahead of him have better games defensively and did a better job of protecting him?

Is it down to their styles of play maybe Jones being more aggressive (he is fond of charging out for a tackle)?

Or possibly it was Tactics Solskjaer asking Jones to be more proactive in challenging around the box and telling Lindelof to sit off more and cover him?

Who knows, there are so many variables in football that you can't really look at stats from two players and decide which one played better based on them.

 

[Bwuk]

Possibly the best thing he’s done for our chances of top 4 is injuring Kane.

 

[ravelston]

Are fans are sitting there watching games with pen and paper jotting down stats?

Obviously not the vast majority of people will view the match and see things they are impressed by and form an opinion from that.

You're half right stats don't tell the whole story, they barely tell you even half of it. A lot of them are meaningless in general, which is why i put little stock in the player ratings from sites like Whoscored.

As an example you say Jones had a better pass completion rate, ok but maybe Lindelof tried more risky longer range passes which is why is % is lower and if some of those risky passes came off that sort of stuff sticks in peoples minds.

Also you say Jones had more defensive interventions, did more of Cardiffs attacking come down his side?

Did other United players on Lindelof's side ahead of him have better games defensively and did a better job of protecting him?

Is it down to their styles of play maybe Jones being more aggressive (he is fond of charging out for a tackle)?

Or possibly it was Tactics Solskjaer asking Jones to be more proactive in challenging around the box and telling Lindelof to sit off more and cover him?

Who knows, there are so many variables in football that you can't really look at stats from two players and decide which one played better based on them.

That's really weak. Never mind.

Actually, Lindelof did try more risky long passes - he succeeded with one out of the eight he tried. Jones was 5 for 5 in long passing.

 

[stevoc]

That's really weak. Never mind.

Haha yeah ok mate if you say so.

Actually, Lindelof did try more risky long passes - he succeeded with one out of the eight he tried. Jones was 5 for 5 in long passing.

Genuinely interesting, can you post the source of these stats?

What does this site define as a long pass?

Is a pass under pressure lofted up the pitch to an attacker equal to a pass under no pressure along the ground across the back line to say a fullback?

Without context many stats alone are a fairly meaningless and not really a good way of judging a defenders performance.

 

[A-man]

To be fair, Jones had 18 defensive interventions (aerials won, tackles, interceptions clearances and blocks) against Cardiff compared to Lindelof's 5. He also had 58 passes with a 94.8% success rate compared to Lindelof's 47 at 76.6%. I know that statistics don't tell the whole story, but I'd be interested in your explanation of Lindelof's apparent superiority in the eyes of the Caf majority.

Phil Jones gets one or two less points just for being Phil Jones. I mean Jones was comprehensively, visually and statistically better than Lindelof against Cardiff yet his average rating here was the second lowest of all our players, and was far lower than that of the latter. That game encapsulated the relationship between Jones, Redcafe and Man Utd fans.
I think in the case of Lindelof, it is just people getting too excited and going overboard about a defender that isn't named Phil Jones or Smalling not playing badly. I bet the sentiments will be different, and the performances will probably be analysed in a different way if Jones was giving the exact performances Lindelof has been giving us so far. The only game I'd say Lindelof really outperformed Jones under Ole was against Newcastle.

The Cardiff match is a good example of how stats don’t tell the story. But first I would like to say that I thought Jones was really good and find it very disrespectful when poeple call him names etc, because the man always gives everything for his club.

Jones:
was good against Cardiff. But being good defensively against Cardiff doesn’t give you high ratings.

Lindelof: this was the match where he totally changed his game. He brought the ball forward several times, on two occasions all the way to the penalty box. He stepped forward and took the ball higher up. He created chances. These are qualities add something extra more than defending, they are spectacular and entertaining and people have been wanting this for a long time. All of it will not be seen in the stats maybe, but people who watched the game rated an all over the pitch dribble higher than a won header against Cardiff. That’s the reason for higher ratings.

 

[Mcking]

From your last post mate, you basically said he was better than Lindelof in every aspect. And you disagreed that Jones should have been rated lower than Lindelof, so i obviously assumed you think he should have been rated at least 7.7 or higher, since Lindelof got a 7.6.

I didn't say anything about numbers nor how high or low he should have been rated after that game. What I'm saying though is that he shouldn't have gotten a much lower rating compared to Lindelof if both performances were reasonably judged imo. I mean he did most of the defending in that game and more than matched him on the ball.

Thats why i was posing the question to you whether you had considered maybe it's you who are overrating his performances and not the majority of other fans on here who are underrating him.

Jones is strongly disliked by Man Utd fans, and many seem to have already given up on him. Just take a look at the reaction after any not-very-excellent performance. Few even try to reasonably analyse the good and bad. I wouldn't hesitate before leaning towards the latter - re your post.

It shows that most people on here thought Lindelof was better in that game, theres a strong possibility they are right. Add to that the fact it's unlikely there is some forum wide biased conspiracy to artificially lower Phil Jones match day ratings.

Obviously there will always be some who give him a rating of 1 or 2 because of personal dislike. But i doubt theres enough to significantly lower his average score. But no doubt they would be cancelled out by the fanboys who give him an 8-10 every game as likely happens with lots of players. Very rarely if ever have i seen a match day rating on here thats stood out to me and i've thought to myself ''wow thats ridiculously low, most on here must be biased against that player''. The majority of members who regularly submit their player ratings are fairly objective i believe.

It is suprising how the majority that watched that game unbiasedly thought Lindelof was better. I don't mean there is a nationwide conspiracy or anything of that sort, what I think those ratings show is that it is much more difficult for Jones to convince some - compared to Lindelof for example - because they have already made up their minds that he is not good or that they don't like him or that they are fade up of seeing him on the pitch and want him gone.
Who do you think performed better in that game, and why?

 

[Bwuk]

Haha yeah ok mate if you say so.



Genuinely interesting, can you post the source of these stats?

What does this site define as a long pass?

Is a pass under pressure lofted up the pitch to an attacker equal to a pass under no pressure along the ground across the back line to say a fullback?

Without context many stats alone are a fairly meaningless and not really a good way of judging a defenders performance.

I agree with you stats are meaningless, too much value is placed upon them.

Fulham do their transfer business based off of stats, and they’ve signed a bunch of absolute dross.

Stats only tell part of the story. Pogbas assist for Rashford v Spurs was a world class pass, but it’s just an assist the same as a 5 yard cut back would be going off of stats.

 

[Mcking]

The Cardiff match is a good example of how stats don’t tell the story. But first I would like to say that I thought Jones was really good and find it very disrespectful when poeple call him names etc, because the man always gives everything for his club.

Jones:
was good against Cardiff. But being good defensively against Cardiff doesn’t give you high ratings.

Lindelof: this was the match where he totally changed his game. He brought the ball forward several times, on two occasions all the way to the penalty box. He stepped forward and took the ball higher up. He created chances. These are qualities add something extra more than defending, they are spectacular and entertaining and people have been wanting this for a long time. All of it will not be seen in the stats maybe, but people who watched the game rated an all over the pitch dribble higher than a won header against Cardiff. That’s the reason for higher ratings.

Fair enough. It is tougher for Jones to please I'd say.

 

[11101]

Genuinely interesting, can you post the source of these stats?

What does this site define as a long pass?

It doesn't really matter. You cant tell much about defenders in particular from stats.

One player might put in a crunching tackle on a striker, or another might have prevented the ball ever reaching the striker with an interception, whilst the best player prevented the pass ever being attempted by getting their positioning right. That's the player that doesn't get a tick in their stat box.

Jones having to step in with tackles or interceptions 18 times in one game just tells me he wasn't in control.

 

[A-man]

Fair enough. It is tougher for Jones to please I'd say.

Definitely. Lindelof had the same problem last season. Even after a good game people highlighted his mistakes. What do you think about the partnership between Jones/Lindelof? I think has been pretty good. They seem to communicate well and understand each other.

 

[roonster09]

That's really weak. Never mind.

Actually, Lindelof did try more risky long passes - he succeeded with one out of the eight he tried. Jones was 5 for 5 in long passing.

Without watching the long passes you just can't be sure. Jones passing the ball to fullback is also considered as long pass, it doesn't have to be forward. Even passback to DeGea is a long pass.

 

[roonster09]

What does this site define as a long pass?

Long Ball
- An attempted/accurate pass of 25 yards or more

So CBs passing the ball to fullback is a long pass.

 

[roonster09]

That's really weak. Never mind.

Actually, Lindelof did try more risky long passes - he succeeded with one out of the eight he tried. Jones was 5 for 5 in long passing.

4 of the 5 long passes are in defensive third (target is defensive third), so good chance it's just a switch of play to fullback. Also all the 5 passes were played on the ground. So like I said, it's a good chance it's a simple pass to fullbacks in defensive third.

Lindelof played 8 long passes, 4 of them were chipped and 4 on the ground. All 8 long passes were forward passes. 6 of the passes were played to final third, 1 to mid third and 1 in defensive third.

All long passes are not same. Jones' are just playing sideways passes.

 

[Mcking]

Definitely. Lindelof had the same problem last season. Even after a good game people highlighted his mistakes. What do you think about the partnership between Jones/Lindelof? I think has been pretty good. They seem to communicate well and understand each other.

Although there is room for improvement, I'd say the partnership has been decent. I'm quite suprised that some are clamouring for Jones to be dropped. They are both decent on the ball, and compliment each other well. Jones is quite aggressive and aerially good, although Lindelof seem to be improving on that aspect.
Overall, I'd say it's been a solid partnership and I hope both can stay fit.

 

[stevoc]

I didn't say anything about numbers nor how high or low he should have been rated after that game. What I'm saying though is that he shouldn't have gotten a much lower rating compared to Lindelof if both performances were reasonably judged imo. I mean he did most of the defending in that game and more than matched him on the ball.

Jones is strongly disliked by Man Utd fans, and many seem to have already given up on him. Just take a look at the reaction after any not-very-excellent performance. Few even try to reasonably analyse the good and bad. I wouldn't hesitate before leaning towards the latter - re your post.

Some dislike him but not all mate, but i agree loads have given up on him myself included. He's been here long enough for people to be more than justified to have given up on him.

It is suprising how the majority that watched that game unbiasedly thought Lindelof was better. I don't mean there is a nationwide conspiracy or anything of that sort, what I think those ratings show is that it is much more difficult for Jones to convince some - compared to Lindelof for example - because they have already made up their minds that he is not good or that they don't like him or that they are fade up of seeing him on the pitch and want him gone.
Who do you think performed better in that game, and why?

I thought they were about even vs Cardiff both played very well, but i was watching that match in a bar having a few drinks so i wouldn't put too much stock into my own opinion of the game. Vs Huddersfield i thought Jones was better, against Newcastle and Spurs especially i thought Lindelof was better.

Though i don't do players ratings on here anymore.

 

[FootyGirl88]

"Already given up on him" - stop this nonsense please, he's been here 8 years.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Fair enough. It is tougher for Jones to please I'd say.

Maybe it's because Lindelof has been here for a year and a half and the last few months is the first time he's had a consistent run in the side. I have my doubts about him being good enough to be honest but it's still relatively early days.

Where as Phil Jones has been here for almost 8 years and is still the same injury prone rash defender who is always at risk of a huge mistake that he was when he first arrived.

That's why it's tougher for Jones to please, he's had more than enough chances. How can you say "already given up"?

He's been here 8 years!!

 

[stevoc]

I agree with you stats are meaningless, too much value is placed upon them.

Fulham do their transfer business based off of stats, and they’ve signed a bunch of absolute dross.

Stats only tell part of the story. Pogbas assist for Rashford v Spurs was a world class pass, but it’s just an assist the same as a 5 yard cut back would be going off of stats.

It doesn't really matter. You cant tell much about defenders in particular from stats.

One player might put in a crunching tackle on a striker, or another might have prevented the ball ever reaching the striker with an interception, whilst the best player prevented the pass ever being attempted by getting their positioning right. That's the player that doesn't get a tick in their stat box.

Jones having to step in with tackles or interceptions 18 times in one game just tells me he wasn't in control.

Yep agree lads without context most stats are meaningless. And these stat sites would always reflect kindly on a player like Jones who likes to dive into tackles, and often loses a man and then has to make a last ditch tackle to save the situation. The Newcastle match is a good example i'm sure the stats don't take into account his feckup to give Rondon the ball but will mark him down positively for the last ditch tackle to get it back.

Fulham signing players based on it says it all really.

 

[stevoc]

So CBs passing the ball to fullback is a long pass.

Cheers i thought it was something like that, meaningless bullshit most of it.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I agree with you stats are meaningless, too much value is placed upon them.

Fulham do their transfer business based off of stats, and they’ve signed a bunch of absolute dross.

Stats only tell part of the story. Pogbas assist for Rashford v Spurs was a world class pass, but it’s just an assist the same as a 5 yard cut back would be going off of stats.

I'm hugely sceptical that this is true. All clubs use stats in their transfer business to some degree or another but they pay for much more detailed analysis than is available to the public. If they use no other analysis I'd be surprised.

Even if it is true, they still got promoted last season off the back of it.

 

[roonster09]

Cheers i thought it was something like that, meaningless bullshit most of it.

Yeah. I have give the breakdown of those passes in the other post. There is clear difference in Lindelof's and Jones' long passing.

4 of the 5 long passes are in defensive third (target is defensive third), so good chance it's just a switch of play to fullback. Also all the 5 passes were played on the ground. So like I said, it's a good chance it's a simple pass to fullbacks in defensive third.

Lindelof played 8 long passes, 4 of them were chipped and 4 on the ground. All 8 long passes were forward passes. 6 of the passes were played to final third, 1 to mid third and 1 in defensive third.

All long passes are not same. Jones' are just playing sideways passes.

 

[Black Adder]

He looks calmer and more confident than before, but injuries robbed him of that something that would eleveate him to another level.

He'll still do the job, but for a club of United stature he's not good enough and never will be.

 

[Doracle]

Jones definitely played one excellent left footed lofted long pass into one of the forwards against Cardiff. I remember thinking it just wasn’t something he’d have attempted under Jose. His passing was much more impressive than Lindelof’s in that game.

 

[stevoc]

Yeah. I have give the breakdown of those passes in the other post. There is clear difference in Lindelof's and Jones' long passing.

Thanks mate i seen it, pretty much as i imagined ground passes along the back line are rated equal to long lofted passes up the pitch trying to pick out attackers. Its pointless using stats like that as evidence one player played better than the other.

 

[Doracle]

It doesn't really matter. You cant tell much about defenders in particular from stats.

One player might put in a crunching tackle on a striker, or another might have prevented the ball ever reaching the striker with an interception, whilst the best player prevented the pass ever being attempted by getting their positioning right. That's the player that doesn't get a tick in their stat box.

Jones having to step in with tackles or interceptions 18 times in one game just tells me he wasn't in control.

The last paragraph here just emphasises the ridiculous extent some people are now going to in order to criticise Jones. This may be the first time I’ve ever seen someone attempt to portray a defender making 18 tackles/interceptions as a bad thing!

 

[sunama]

The last paragraph here just emphasises the ridiculous extent some people are now going to in order to criticise Jones. This may be the first time I’ve ever seen someone attempt to portray a defender making 18 tackles/interceptions as a bad thing!

My friend, Jones has had so many bad games, it's got to a point that no matter how many good games he has, it won't change peoples' minds.
I am included in this and I want him gone. I am sick and tired of the own goals. The power decision making, which means that he needs to make a last ditch tackle, to cover up for his mistake.
He has a mistake in him, every single match, though of course, he may have a good game, once in a while.
And playing well against a Cardiff team, who could barely get out of their own half, is not the kind of game a MUFC centre back should be judged off of.

The guy is not good enough and we need to get shot of him, somehow (which won't be easy).

 

[11101]

The last paragraph here just emphasises the ridiculous extent some people are now going to in order to criticise Jones. This may be the first time I’ve ever seen someone attempt to portray a defender making 18 tackles/interceptions as a bad thing!

That, combined with actually watching it, confirms he was constantly chasing the game and getting caught out. Especially when his partner made just 5.

I actually think Jones is a decent defender most of the time, but he's never far away from an own goal/red card/injury. He's not one we should be hoping improves under Ole. We know what hes capable of by now and its not good enough.

 

[Hoboman]

Like his attitude and commitment.
Unfortunately, he is the same player he was 6-7 years ago, but without standout pace and very good ball playing abilities.
As rash and reckless, with constant concentration lapses and injury problems.

Without injuries, he is going to be great defender for mid level club with good defensive organisation.

 

[Catt]

The guy is not good enough and we need to get shot of him, somehow (which won't be easy).

Isn't he out of contract in the summer?

 

[RedSky]

Jones isn't good enough to be a starter, most of us acknowledged that a while back. But to be a squad player you need to be relied on when the chips are down due to injuries/suspensions/fatigue. With Jones' abysmal injury record he fails on that too. Get rid.

 

[Mcking]

Maybe it's because Lindelof has been here for a year and a half and the last few months is the first time he's had a consistent run in the side. I have my doubts about him being good enough to be honest but it's still relatively early days.

Where as Phil Jones has been here for almost 8 years and is still the same injury prone rash defender who is always at risk of a huge mistake that he was when he first arrived.

That's why it's tougher for Jones to please, he's had more than enough chances. How can you say "already given up"?

He's been here 8 years!!

Yes. He has been here for 8 years and some have given up on him, are tired of seeing him on the pitch, and just want him gone at all costs. He is just not an exciting proposition anymore, and at this moment, it barely has anything to do with performances. He could start playing consistently like Vidic, but everyone will still be seeing the old error and injury prone Phil Jones, waiting for the next injury or own goal that never comes. His time with us has also conincided with our worst period in years.
I think Lindelof is currently in his honeymoon period just like Smalling, Jones, Bailly before him. We need to start winning again and get back to the top or he will soon be damaged goods.

 

[roonster09]

Jones isn't good enough to be a starter, most of us acknowledged that a while back. But to be a squad player you need to be relied on when the chips are down due to injuries/suspensions/fatigue. With Jones' abysmal injury record he fails on that too. Get rid.

Yeah, this is the point. He plays well for few games, we all get hopes up that he is the answer and he gets injured, it happened so many times it's not even funny anymore. We need players who are reliable and available for most of the season.

 

[Mcking]

"Already given up on him" - stop this nonsense please, he's been here 8 years.

But it is not that outrageous to say that some have already given up and made up their minds about him. What is wrong with that?

 

[Johan07]

The point is you can't move him on on £100k a week and certainly couldn't bank on it with his injury record. Someone buying Jones for £40m would have to factor in £65m over a 5 year contract.

Only looking at Jones contract as £5m annually is like looking at a brand new iPhone contract as only £50 a month. That might be fine month one when it's a shiney brand new phone... But do you really want to be paying £50 in 20 months time when the phone is out of date, scratched, scraped and patently awful value for money compared with someone else's brand new phone costing the same. The phone is £1200 over the 2 year contract... There's no escaping that.

100k a week is nothing in todays market.
You dont have to use phones as examples when you can just look at the numbers for Jones himself to make my point:
Say that we give Jones a 100k a week contract and keep him for 2 years and then move him on. Anything over 10m in transfer fee will then be pure profit and we will have paid nothing for a completely OK squad player during two years and actually turned a profit on the deal
I estimated his transfer value to 30-40m and I still think thats more reasonable than 10m when you look at comparable English players in his age group. No way that Maguire, who is just one year younger is worth 70m and Jones not even half of that. IMO.
Even 20m in two years would be a fecking awesome deal since it would mean making a 10m profit including two years of service.
Buying a new player to replace him and putting him on the same wage would be minus from the first day.
It should be easy to understand the financial incitament to keep Jones in the squad and spend that money that he would actually save us elsewhere.

 

[AndyJ1985]

But it is not that outrageous to say that some have already given up and made up their minds about him. What is wrong with that?

If we can't make our minds up on a player after 8 years when the feck can we?

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

But it is not that outrageous to say that some have already given up and made up their minds about him. What is wrong with that?

You can't make out some have "already given up on him" as if it's people showing a lack of patience.

He's been here for 8 years. That's more than enough time to work out he's not good enough, which he so clearly isn't.

 

[Johan07]

You can't make out some have "already given up on him" as if it's people showing a lack of patience.

He's been here for 8 years. That's more than enough time to work out he's not good enough, which he so clearly isn't.

To be fair how long he has been at the club is pretty irrelevant. He is still just 26 and if he can stay injury free; 26 is very young for a CB and he still has plenty of time to develop into what most people thought he would be. He is one year older than Maguire for fecks sake.

 

[FootyGirl88]

To be fair how long he has been at the club is pretty irrelevant. He is still just 26 and if he can stay injury free; 26 is very young for a CB and he still has plenty of time to develop into what most people thought he would be. He is one year older than Maguire for fecks sake.

He's 27 next month he should be in his prime right now.