Can we just change Phil Jones' name to scapegoat? My god, the hate on this guy is unbelievable. Is he a perfect defender? Not at all. But last I checked there are 9 other out field players on the team who all played a part in allowing Tottenham to have so many chances today. By reading these posts you would think he was at fault for everything good Tottenham did today...
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 24
- Clean sheets
- 6
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 1
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Status
Seeing where this thread is going, he's gonna play a blinder next week. It's happened before.
He is at fault for literally losing his man Kane multiple times. He is flat footed and has zero concentration. There was a time he let Winks stroll straight past him into the box. He is better to have on the pitch than Smalling because he can pass but he is a complete liability and needs to leave as soon as possible.
You cant defend Phil Jones and also complain that we are not challenging for titles, not that he's the only fault for this team not challenging but you're accepting mediorce quality and that's what he is,
Kane had him in his pocket and if it wasn't for DDG being superman we would have lost the game, he was all kver the place and needs shifted asap, I actually cant wait for Smalling to get back and hopefully remain fit for the rest of the season and then actually invest in better quality in the summer
Kane had him in his pocket and if it wasn't for DDG being superman we would have lost the game, he was all kver the place and needs shifted asap, I actually cant wait for Smalling to get back and hopefully remain fit for the rest of the season and then actually invest in better quality in the summer
Like I said, he's not perfect. But he plays his heart out every single time he steps on the field. And if his biggest criticism is that he got out played by arguably the best out and out striker in the world, then that's not all that bad is it? Bottom line is he isn't meant to be our starting central defender, but as of right now, he is. So how about we support the guy intstead of nitpicking every step he makes...
I agree with you that he plays his heart out but that shouldn’t be determinative of whether he stays at United surely? You are right he cannot be scapegoated but he was by far the worse defender yesterday and despite us keeping a clean sheet, Jones was poor overall and Kane schooled him. I am afraid that many here are right in that Jones despite the odd good game, should not be starting for us. Your call to support him on the field is correct.
Ah the days when he man marked Ronaldo and pretty much shut him up.
Kane destroyed him. Kane is top class striker and of course he will give you trouble but not like this. That was brutal. And for me, losing Kane constantly in penalty box is unacceptable for defender who plays at highest level. Kane had two free headers, one or two times he had even time to control ball in the box and the worst situation which pissed me off, was last second chance when Kane missed cross only by inches.
When you compare him with Lindelof's performance yesterday, it is day and night.
Don't know if anyone blamed him for all their chances, he was at fault for quite a few of them. But regardless he played poorly and this is the Phil Jones performance thread. This is where people are supposed to post their opinions on players performances. So when Jones has a bad game you shouldn't be surprised that there are lots of posts saying he played badly.
His heart has rarely been questioned, but everything else about his game can be. It is that bad, Smalling isn't world class but he can contain Kane and other top strikers so Jones is no where near even that level never mind what we need to challenge for titles. Support him on the pitch not in a performance thread, if someone (not saying you ) comes in here and says they thought he played well after a performance like yesterday to show ''support'' then thats pointless. Its a thread on a football forum ffs, if you don't want to criticize them then fine don't but theres nothing wrong with others sharing their opinion on his performance.
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He got done every single time. But the weird thing was on Allis chance. Where was he going? WHo was he marking or trying to shut down? It put us in a position where he was chasing back. Kane is a top striker and can get the best of really top defenders, but Jones was just all over the place.
Jones got done nearly every single time - but it's funny how the same people give Lindelöf some world beater type credit.
He was nearly always out of position. Jones on the other hand was in the correct positions but kept losing his man.
He was nearly always out of position. Jones on the other hand was in the correct positions but kept losing his man.
How many times did he lose his man on the corners? What is the matter with him? We need Smalling back I think. He can't pass but he can dominate strikers so in the meantime will have to play. Ideally when the new CB arrives Jones can go and Smalling takes Jones place in the squad .
A shame Jones never vindicated the "Duncan Edwards" hype surrounding him in his early days. There was something to his game at an early age that showed promise. But I suspect what's happening now is that because he's lost so much time in his career to injuries that he's desperate to make up for that lost time and thus he presses too hard and makes himself look foolish. If there were a way for him to mentally calm he might become a decent CB, but right now he's lucky to be a squad man for us.
OGS makes an impression of an intelligent person. It’s hard to believe he doesn’t see Jones’ shortcomings. Yet he plays him again, and again, and again... It wouldnt be worse to play Darmian instead who is much better positionally
Jones had his moments in the game. Yes he was poor in the set pieces but in other occasions he was very good. He saved a certain goal with a diving header too. The more I watch the game the less critical I become of Jones. But it is not good that he is our regular CB. We need someone who does not make those mistakes in set pieces too.
I only watched the game's highlights, sure Jones was the weaker of the CBs but I don't understand where the gigantic gap between Lindelöf's and Jones' performances is supposed to come from that the ratings and comments suggest. Maybe it's just missing a few scenes.
I know the exact moment you’re speaking of here. I mean it was great defending but just wild
I was actually thinking to myself he has the opposite of Bailly who goes with his feet when he should use his head and Jones often uses his head instead of his feet when feet seems the easiest and best option.Few occasions for me where he was drawn out of his position too far but yeah I actually didn’t hate what I was seeing from him. Felt the whole defence did well and that it was quite a tactical battle and our risk of allowing their fullbacks just to go especially Trippier and Son, Alli,Lamela or Erickson dropping in to Shaw’s space so he had to watch 2 or 3 reaped benefits for them and us. Just in the 2nd half they seemed to be able to execute their tactics more willingly which is expected when we dropped back but when a block, tackle or just a nudge to put someone off was needed Jones and Lindelof did it.
Harry Kane has scored 21 goals so far this season and Jones and Lindelof and of course DeGea stopped him from scoring. Jones had made many a crucial mistakes in the past and we have suffered but yesterday was not that day. Yes if they had scored he would have been crucified here but even now he is being slated here. At least he gives everything and I have said before he would give his life. As Andersonsdiet said I knew it was Jones the moment someone came and with a flying header stopped the cross. I think he has even headed a ball on the ground. So did Vidic to be honest. 
Whoscored ratings since Ole arrival:
Spurs - 7.1/6.9
Newcastle - 7.5/7.8
Huddersfield - 7.5/6.8
Cardiff - 7.8/7.0
So Jones 7.5 and Lindelof 7.1
Redcafe average ratings:
Spurs - 6.2/7.7
Newcastle - 5.8/7.7
Huddersfield - 6.7/6.9
Cardiff - 6.9/7.6
So Jones 6.4 and Lindelof 7.5
Personally, I’d say they’ve performed fairly similarly, with Jones having the slight edge overall. I think a lot of people on here have already made their minds up about Jones and he probably gets downgraded by about a point per match as a result.
Spurs - 7.1/6.9
Newcastle - 7.5/7.8
Huddersfield - 7.5/6.8
Cardiff - 7.8/7.0
So Jones 7.5 and Lindelof 7.1
Redcafe average ratings:
Spurs - 6.2/7.7
Newcastle - 5.8/7.7
Huddersfield - 6.7/6.9
Cardiff - 6.9/7.6
So Jones 6.4 and Lindelof 7.5
Personally, I’d say they’ve performed fairly similarly, with Jones having the slight edge overall. I think a lot of people on here have already made their minds up about Jones and he probably gets downgraded by about a point per match as a result.
His positioning is very poor and it happens so often in every game. Not even Ole can work his magic on him
This is pretty much the proof of how stats from whoscored can not replace watching the matches.
Jones stepped up against Spurs and battled as hard as the rest of them. He had a good game. Post-match Ole called him Jonah which suggests his frailties are known and accepted within the squad. The one brain failure he had was making a tackle deep in the opponents half and falling over, which left him way out of position during a Spurs counter. After that he seemed to settle down to some pretty testing defending. If he stays fit he might just turn out to be one of our key defenders for the rest of the season.
And that is why whoscored is a load of shite and not a lot of stock should be put into it.
Lindelof has been superior.
The way Whoscored score players during a game and the way a collection of football fans score players for the same game will obviously be very different which will explain the discrepancy between the scores.
From my experience they always seem to score every player on the higher side. In those games i don't think either Jones or Lindelof had a performance worthy of anything near an 8, yet the site is throwing around 7.5-7.8 scores. For me thats Motm territory.
Thats been a prominent feature of Phils game for years, Bailly does it a bit too.
Lindelof has been close to 8 in most of them - specifically Newcastle
The Lukaku of defenders.
Not the way i score players during games, and there in lies the problem of comparing the player ratings from football stat sites to player ratings from a large group of fans.
I dont put any stock in whoscored or any other scoring system which is all stat based.
The eye test shows you Lindelof has easily been our better CB.
Agree on both counts mate. According to Whoscored practically no player ever has a bad game.
The score is entirely based on stats. If the referee by mistake gives the wrong player a yellow card, that will lower his score. It doesn’t say how smart a player plays, it doesn’t tell how well a defender marks a forward etc. It’s just a summary of stats where they have decided how much a won header and missing a tackle are worth.
Exactly. Jones is rated better in Spurs game than Lindelof?! Bloody hell
Yeah i put no stock in their player ratings at all. Their ratings were being used a season or two ago as proof Lingard was playing really well. When at the time everyone could see he was actually going through a run where he was playing mediocre.
whoscored.com has tons of good statistical info on their site but their player ratings are useless. Jones lost his man on multiple occasions against Tottenham gifting them good scoring opportunities but he won't lose any rating because of that because it's not a metric they record.
Obviously using the absolute number as a comparison is difficult. I tend to rate every player a point or so higher on average than the average on here, so comparing my player ratings against stevoc (who seems to use a lower scale where 7-8 is a motm level display) wouldn’t be helpful.
My intent was to compare the difference between Jones/Lindelof ratings on a stat based neutral rating system (which has Jones slightly ahead) and the “eye test - possibly biased” ratings on this site, where Lindelof has apparently been more than a full point better on average, not to compare the absolute ratings between the two sites.
My intent was to compare the difference between Jones/Lindelof ratings on a stat based neutral rating system (which has Jones slightly ahead) and the “eye test - possibly biased” ratings on this site, where Lindelof has apparently been more than a full point better on average, not to compare the absolute ratings between the two sites.
Phil Jones gets one or two less points just for being Phil Jones. I mean Jones was comprehensively, visually and statistically better than Lindelof against Cardiff yet his average rating here was the second lowest of all our players, and was far lower than that of the latter. That game encapsulated the relationship between Jones, Redcafe and Man Utd fans.
I think in the case of Lindelof, it is just people getting too excited and going overboard about a defender that isn't named Phil Jones or Smalling not playing badly. I bet the sentiments will be different, and the performances will probably be analysed in a different way if Jones was giving the exact performances Lindelof has been giving us so far. The only game I'd say Lindelof really outperformed Jones under Ole was against Newcastle.
In Fergie's day Phil Jones would have ended up as his utillty man. Fergie always had room in his squad for a Blackmore, Phil Neville and John O'Shea type who can cover any defensive position. Unfortunatly the game has moved on a bit and there's no real need for those type of utility men given the size of squads where the top teams have the luxury of cover in every position. Jones probably suffered a bit from not having a settled position early on (like Fosu-Mensah currently is) and together with his, body on the line/full stretch/last minute, style of defending which seems to make him prone to injuries probably means his long term future is not here, which is a shame as hes a warrior.
Could it be so that there is a reasoning underneath? I mean, most of the people here watch football for 10, 20, 30 or even more years. On average, they (people) understand something. Over the years, there were some (rare) periods when Jones has been playing at his absolute best, but even during those (rare) periods he was inconsistent (and injury prone ofc). Currently, Jones is very far from his absolute best and it is obvious that he doesn't progress over the years (much rather the opposite).
Lindelof, on the contrary, at least demonstrates visible progress. Where is his ceiling we do not yet know, but there is probability he will improve further and reach required standards. With Jones, there is no such probability - hence the ratings. People - for the most part, at least - do not want to see Jones in the squad (and, unlike, say, Fred who is a newcomer, we had a luxury to enjoy Jones for many years already).
But what has what happened in the past and what might potentially happen in the future got to do with present match ratings?
I think these just shows the perception and attitude towards Jones, and that many have already made up their minds that they don't like him. There's no longer any sense of objectivity, and many find it difficult to analyse his performances in a proper way. Everything he does is twisted in a negative way and massively exaggarated, and the ones that cannot be twisted are conveniently ignored instead. It is boring.
The "hate" for Philip Jones is strong on the Caf for some reason. I dont get it either. He has been quite decent since OGS took over as well.
I have repeatedly argued for that he should be given a new contract, an opinion that draws even more hate for some reason even if one tries to put forward some quite logical arguments.
I am not going to repeat myself other than by saying that I am pretty convinced that Jones will be awarded a new contract on about 100k a week.
If nothing else it would be financial stupidity not to do so. Regardless of one sees him as a part of the squad long term or not. By putting him on that kind of contract he would instantly be worth 30-40m on the transfer market again and we would actually "make" money on such a deal.
The actual wage cost on those terms would be much lower than that if we would decide to transfer him whenever in the next couple of years.
There are a lot of other arguments as well for giving him a new contract and to keep him around at least for next season, but again: I will not repeat myself too much in this thread.
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