It's actually weird that some ManUtd fans love Foden so much, bluecafe strikes again.
Phil Foden - What Is His Potential?
- Thread starter Davs
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Bellingham hasn’t been good but still much much better than Foden. Same with Saka. He should be dropped as all he does float around doing irrelevant things just to get himself involved not offering anything unique or useful.
Foden does fine at City as the numbers and other footballers acknowledge, I don't watch City so I'm not even going to try and debate that. However, he is obviously a system player.
He's to City what Sancho was the Dortmund, and outside that system, he doesn't really have the attributes to really impact a game as far as I've seen.
Mind blowing that there were calls to bench Saka and Bellingham but no one mentioned him in that sense, the noise around him was to adapt the team to suit his strengths. I keep asking: What has he ever done in an England shirt to warrant that? After the Switzerland game, they'll try to build the narrative that he finally came into his own when he was played in his right position. Meanwhile, he was just as poor.
Funny thing is I'm fairly certain he's played on the left more than he's played as a number 10 for City.
He's to City what Sancho was the Dortmund, and outside that system, he doesn't really have the attributes to really impact a game as far as I've seen.
Mind blowing that there were calls to bench Saka and Bellingham but no one mentioned him in that sense, the noise around him was to adapt the team to suit his strengths. I keep asking: What has he ever done in an England shirt to warrant that? After the Switzerland game, they'll try to build the narrative that he finally came into his own when he was played in his right position. Meanwhile, he was just as poor.
Funny thing is I'm fairly certain he's played on the left more than he's played as a number 10 for City.
It’s the City PR machine again
I've never understood the hype around him. He's neat and tidy on the ball but ultimately he's too one footed and lacks the pace to stretch defences.
Looks decent in a Pep system where they keep the opponents boxed in the final third but that's about it.
Looks decent in a Pep system where they keep the opponents boxed in the final third but that's about it.
Premier league player of the season forced out of position under a clueless tactically inept manager but it's the players fault.
Foden isn't a plug and play winger who can shine from the dirt and it goes against him. Bellingham is playing his preferred position and has been absolutely horrendous.
Foden isn't a plug and play winger who can shine from the dirt and it goes against him. Bellingham is playing his preferred position and has been absolutely horrendous.
David Ginola won player of the year in 98/99. That doesn't mean he was better than the likes of Beckham and Keane during that season.
Except England might be out of the tournament if it wasn’t for him.
Bellingham is England’s best player. Period. Anything else is bias or team preference. Bellingham can carry a team. Foden never has and never will.
"Sinister" is an interesting word to use. Any chance you could elaborate a little? I think he's overrated but I've always thought that stemmed from Pep saying he was "the most talented player he's ever seen" and nobody wanting to seem dumb enough to fail to acknowledge such a supposedly special talent.
No questioning his talent although I hadn't realized he was so one footed. He's been the main man in that city team but now it's Bellingham and I reckon it's having a negative effect on him. They don't look to be able to play together. Palmer should be replacing him from start!
Bellingham has been poor throughout this tournament. The only thing that separates him from Foden are his two goals.
But that's a significant separation, extra time finish to keep the country in the tournament, not dropping his head giving up and the penalty demonstrating an ability to easily handle pressure even despite playing average for the large majority of games.
At a time where Harry Kane likely due to his age / physicality is coming off a long season in a new environment which has resulted in him being an absolute passenger the "who else" gesture from Bellingham has hardly been a falsified notion.
Separately to what's mentioned in previous pages, there's also no shame in being referred to as a system player, there's been successful footballers who have played under Pep without adapting to his requirements. Grealish is for instance not necessarily a better player than Phil for Guardiola but under a manager who doesn't have as much tactical nous you can almost guarantee that Grealish has the capacity to make more of an impact figuring it out on his own. So it goes both ways considering the context.
The measure of this England team is also categorized by who's in charge and Foden has been consistently poor for England.
It was weird at halftime in the Switzerland match. The BBC coverage was all about how amazing he’d been in the first half. In contrast, I thought he should have been subbed at halftime he was that ineffective (and got worse)! I’m a big fan of Foden, and I disagree that he can’t be effective outside of City - his touch is superb - but he’s been completely out of sorts this tournament.
I don’t think it’s anything more sinister than wanting the golden boy and POTY to succeed but it is very much at odds with my own view of his performances.
Bellingham has been bad - 2 goals
Kane has been bad - 2 goals
Saka has been bad - 1 goal and 1 assist
Foden has been bad - 2 offsides
Spot the difference
Kane has been bad - 2 goals
Saka has been bad - 1 goal and 1 assist
Foden has been bad - 2 offsides
Spot the difference
Think he's an excellent finisher and has great feet inside the box and in tight spaces. But as you said he's not some creative genius and he's not a true 1v1 winger so he doesn't really fit in a conventional setup. Pep is a master of finding player profiles and min/maxing (gamer term) them for his own teams, but it feels like many of these players especially in more recent years struggle when the game state isn't strictly dictated by instructions and clear rules like under Pep. Only ones that seem less effected are the true generational level players (KDB, Rodri etc.) who can basically fit in any team anyways.
For all of the “he’s keeping us in the tournament with his goals” talk, he’s also just as culpable as anyone for England nearly going out against these teams in the first place.
He’s been better than Foden, but let’s not pretend he’s carrying the team or standing out in this tournament.
Mmh, remind me how you beat the opposing team? What a strange thing to write.
To be fair, when everyone has been poor, it’s not a great argument as to which attacker has been less appalling (seems bizarre to say when they’ve still reached the SF!).
I’d currently rate the 4 main attackers as follows:
Bellingham (6.5/10) - strong in the first match, two excellent goals, great penalty under pressure but struggled to consistently impact games.
Saka (6/10) - looked dangerous in open play against Serbia and Switzerland. End product has generally been poor but found a sublime goal at just the right time v Switzerland and a calm penalty when he was under immense pressure.
Kane (3/10) - doesn’t look fit but has still got on the end of two goals. Missed one other good chance that I can recall and has had a fairly thankless job with little supply.
Foden (2/10) - think he was ok against Denmark but genuinely can’t recall anything noteworthy in any other match. Just can’t get involved, I don’t recall him beating a man or doing anything I’d expect from a top class 10 or winger. Looks genuinely lost and bereft of his usual dynamism.
I’d currently rate the 4 main attackers as follows:
Bellingham (6.5/10) - strong in the first match, two excellent goals, great penalty under pressure but struggled to consistently impact games.
Saka (6/10) - looked dangerous in open play against Serbia and Switzerland. End product has generally been poor but found a sublime goal at just the right time v Switzerland and a calm penalty when he was under immense pressure.
Kane (3/10) - doesn’t look fit but has still got on the end of two goals. Missed one other good chance that I can recall and has had a fairly thankless job with little supply.
Foden (2/10) - think he was ok against Denmark but genuinely can’t recall anything noteworthy in any other match. Just can’t get involved, I don’t recall him beating a man or doing anything I’d expect from a top class 10 or winger. Looks genuinely lost and bereft of his usual dynamism.
Not playing shite usually does the trick.
But you have to score. And Bellingham does that much more than Foden. He also gets more tackles and wins more ground duels than your boy
And he's a better dribbler and passer and better in the air, but apart from that what have the Romans ever done for us?
Feels a bit opportunistic to jump onto this bandwagon now but I don't really rate him.
He's a good player sure, but he isn't the player the hyperbole merchants like Neville have talked him up to be. What is his stand out attribute or attributes? Needing a better haircut? Being called Phil?
The thing is though I also think the criticism is quite ridiculous. I think if you stuck him in United's team for example, what would happen is that instead of the team looking better, he would just look worse, and then he'd get blamed for not being as good as people pretended he was, or for not working miracles, even though he'd not necessarily have done anything wrong, which I think is basically what is happening with England.
Bellingham is suffering from it too. If you look at it objectively, he isn't nearly the player say, Rooney was at his age. Yet people go on like he's 10x the player Rooney was, and then shoot him down for not living up to this ludicrous and completely baseless expectation. The guy scored a pele in the last minute of a knockout game to save his team and yet when England inevitably fall short he'll be getting tournament ratings like 4/10 because there were several games where he wasn't MOTM.
Foden gets compared to Gascoine. The only remotely comparable thing between the two is they both died their hair blonde and have been associated with fishing. BBC were going on about him being the best no10 in world football because he had a few neat touches in a half against Switzerland. Next game they'll be on his back for not performing like the best no10 in world football, while playing out of position on the left wing for an idiot manager in a team that can't string a decent 5 minutes together.
Point being however you swing it he isn't a BAD player, but if you expect him to be capable of what he isn't, he'll be spoken about like he is one. There is also literally no point in pitting him vs Bellingham as seems to be becoming the trend, since Southgate doesn't have a clue how to use either and picks both of them regardless anyway.
He's a good player sure, but he isn't the player the hyperbole merchants like Neville have talked him up to be. What is his stand out attribute or attributes? Needing a better haircut? Being called Phil?
The thing is though I also think the criticism is quite ridiculous. I think if you stuck him in United's team for example, what would happen is that instead of the team looking better, he would just look worse, and then he'd get blamed for not being as good as people pretended he was, or for not working miracles, even though he'd not necessarily have done anything wrong, which I think is basically what is happening with England.
Bellingham is suffering from it too. If you look at it objectively, he isn't nearly the player say, Rooney was at his age. Yet people go on like he's 10x the player Rooney was, and then shoot him down for not living up to this ludicrous and completely baseless expectation. The guy scored a pele in the last minute of a knockout game to save his team and yet when England inevitably fall short he'll be getting tournament ratings like 4/10 because there were several games where he wasn't MOTM.
Foden gets compared to Gascoine. The only remotely comparable thing between the two is they both died their hair blonde and have been associated with fishing. BBC were going on about him being the best no10 in world football because he had a few neat touches in a half against Switzerland. Next game they'll be on his back for not performing like the best no10 in world football, while playing out of position on the left wing for an idiot manager in a team that can't string a decent 5 minutes together.
Point being however you swing it he isn't a BAD player, but if you expect him to be capable of what he isn't, he'll be spoken about like he is one. There is also literally no point in pitting him vs Bellingham as seems to be becoming the trend, since Southgate doesn't have a clue how to use either and picks both of them regardless anyway.
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Why is he my boy?
He has the most freedom of any player in that squad and he charges around like a headless chicken. He’s at the back, he’s on the wing, he’s in the box. Of course he’s going to have better numbers as a result. But the fact is none of it amounts to much. His passing has been slack, he has no positional awareness, he charges with the ball here and there but it hasn’t amounted to anything. He’s looked sloppy and lacks creativity. He’s been shit. He’s scored 2 essential goals yes, but besides that he’s been shit.
Foden has been worse yes and I’d happily see him dropped for the next game, but for 95% of the Euros they’ve been playing at the same underwhelming level.
Made this point before but this guy developed at City under Guardiola. It was sink or swim from the off - either be what Guardiola needs you to be, or rot on the bench. Foden was given a path to make it at City and decided to take it. The "con" in that was he had to become the player City wanted him to be, his development was decided for him, instead of by him. Compare to Palmer, who left City and has been given a platform to just try stuff out and be the player he wants to/could be
Foden needs instructions because he never got to play without. He needs structure because he never got to play without. His ability to improvise, read and react, on and off the ball, never developed to a high level because at City he didn't need to
That's fundamentally why Bellingham and Saka are still finding ways to impact games and be productive while he doesn't
They’ve not. Bellingham has been a 6/10 where’s Foden a 3 or 4. He’s a grossly overrated footballer.Why is he my boy?
He has the most freedom of any player in that squad and he charges around like a headless chicken. He’s at the back, he’s on the wing, he’s in the box. Of course he’s going to have better numbers as a result. But the fact is none of it amounts to much. His passing has been slack, he has no positional awareness, he charges with the ball here and there but it hasn’t amounted to anything. He’s looked sloppy and lacks creativity. He’s been shit. He’s scored 2 essential goals yes, but besides that he’s been shit.
Foden has been worse yes and I’d happily see him dropped for the next game, but for 95% of the Euros they’ve been playing at the same underwhelming level.
Are you concerned if Foden is in the starting lineup against your team or feel relieved when he’s not playing? Hardly...
It's a different story for the likes of Bellingham, KDB, Saka, etc.
He is a very good player who fits perfectly in Guardiola's system, but I wouldn't call him influential as an individual.
It's a different story for the likes of Bellingham, KDB, Saka, etc.
He is a very good player who fits perfectly in Guardiola's system, but I wouldn't call him influential as an individual.
Absolutely none of them were. Rooney was one of the greatest 18 year olds in the history of the game, easily. That Euro 04 blows anything any of the rest of them did as teens out of the water, and its no slight on them. They could all go on (and in Kane's case, did) to have better England careers than him though. They'll all probably end up scoring more tournament goals than him.
He's a machine in City's system, but he looks shite for England.
Pep has turned him in to a robot, who excels at his position in that system? Outside of that and without any real coaching for England, he looks totally lost on the pitch.
I think quite a few players have this problem now, the top club sides all have similar attacking strategy that involves working the ball in to positions to do cutbacks. Statistically it's the most efficient way to play. The same tactics don't seem to be used in international football, maybe why Foden and others can't adapt properly.
Pep has turned him in to a robot, who excels at his position in that system? Outside of that and without any real coaching for England, he looks totally lost on the pitch.
I think quite a few players have this problem now, the top club sides all have similar attacking strategy that involves working the ball in to positions to do cutbacks. Statistically it's the most efficient way to play. The same tactics don't seem to be used in international football, maybe why Foden and others can't adapt properly.
Yep agree completely. I think it’s also why Madrid players historically (Vini aside for now) have always been titans for their national teams as well, as Madrid regardless of the manager often relies on their players to solves game states collectively throughout a match and adapt, instead of playing some super strict rules based system, and international football is all about players that can do that as well because the football will never be as well drilled and pattern based.
He better hope Pep signs a new deal. Any other coach will struggle to find a consistent first team role for him.
Foden has great skills but not enough desires to be the world's best player.
I don't think its desire, I think with England he can't handle the pressure like someone like Bellingham can. He turtles up or like against Denmark tries too hard. Bellingham lives for those moments. Bellingham has had a 5/10 tournament where he's been average but when the big moments come you can rely on Jude in an England shirt, he lives for that shit. Phil when the big moments come will rush or panic in and England shirt where he'd be cool for city.
A quick look at stats per 90 minutes show he's been probably more creative than Saka just lacking the end product (which of course is whats important.) But people here will sput the 2/10 nonsense and can't play outside of Pep's system nonsense regardless. Theres actually very little between the front 4 when you consider Foden played 3 games on the left and Kane plays up top. His and Sakas stats are almost identical in everything bar dribbling which you'd expect.
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I'd say Saka's dribbling is a pretty huge reason as to why he's been effective and looked dangerous, so its a notable difference.
I kind of agree with you, there isn't much between the 3 / 4 of them. But i think @giorno point about struggling to play outside guardiola's system is true too. The other 3 can force things and make things happen, dont think foden can, not to the same extent.
Bit of the Raheem Sterling about him.
It's not so much that he struggles outside City's system, so much as he struggles outside a clearly defined role. He needs to know what positions to take up, and what is asked of him on and off the ball
Also, there's an element of england players just not looking to him for solutions. I think within this team, and this setup, there's no point to having him on the pitch like this. Jude, Kane and Saka are enough for game winners, the focus should be on giving those 3 the best support, you don't really need a 4th game winner - especially one who never managed to be that for England. That's not to say Foden needs to be dropped. But if he plays, he should play on the left, like a left wing forward. Like he did in Qatar
Also, I think @padr81 has a point too re: pressure
Foden has been a 5 whereas Bellingham has been a 6. Foden is neat and tidy on the ball, the problem is he isn’t having much of an impact or imposing himself on games.
At least Sterling had the pace to beat a man.
Foden doesn't fit in this team...maybe a sub appearance, but I think Kane and Foden should be sitting on the bench. Southgate doesn't play Pep style football. He wouldn't even know how to. Need players who can be creative, because god knows the manager doesn't know how to encourage it.
Funny, I usually disagree vehemently with everything you say, but I couldn't agree more with this, and you summarised the issue very eloquently. Barf...
You need better opinions then