Are you having a joke here?
Pep Guardiola agrees contract with Bayern
- Thread starter Cold_Boy
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Are you having a joke here?
Who then is going to service their €45bn debt?
I'll leave this thread with one simple question.....
Why would any of you want an independent cataluña, when it will be to the eventual detriment of cataluña itself?
Why would any of you want an independent cataluña, when it will be to the eventual detriment of cataluña itself?
I don't think they will, they're not stupid.
It's one thing to be proud of your heritage and bragging about the past, but when it comes to total separation that's another thing.
The amount of works to be done, the resources, not to mention that if cataluna acts as an independent nation they'll have to do everything themselves (goverment, social, etc) and I don't think they'll have enough resources / menpower to do that
They hold a massive amount of all Spanish debt for a start. This is not the same as Scotland and England, that's fair game, and the Scots will say no, however, Cataluña is the richest part of Spain, and it's an incredibly selfish act, that isn't legally binding anyway.
It's basically a big middle finger to the poor regions of Spain.
My kids speak catalan FFS!
Weaste you know Catalonia is the most heavily taxed area in Europe? It contributes 20% more than it receives, monetarily Im not an economies expert but on the face of it it will look like it'd be ok.
I'm quite sure that Germany pays in way more than it receives from the EU budget. Do you see Germany chucking a wobbler threatening to leave the EU? That's a British trick!
Do you want to know another Spanish trick. When it came to the expansion of the EU (which Britain was in favour of), the Spanish wanted to block it, because it would mean they would receive less money? Do you know how many seats Cataluña has in the central state congress and how they tried to vote?
Keltoi, it would be interesting to know where you are from and what you heritage is, because you seem to be quite passionate about this issue.
Under the Spanish constitution, it's almost impossible to unravel the whole of España. You'd need two general elections for the whole of Spain as far as I understand it.
Under the Spanish constitution, it's almost impossible to unravel the whole of España. You'd need two general elections for the whole of Spain as far as I understand it.
Im an Irishman and support the concept of self determination in modern democracy. As I've said Im aware under the constitution its not possible but if a referendum passed it would set the wheels moving quickly...
Ok, you support the idea of self determination! Where does that stop? What for example if the 10 Greater Manchester boroughs tomorrow announced that they were going to hold a referendum such that Greater Manchester could become a free and independent state?
It's a bit daft, in fact, ridiculous isn't it?
Probably, but are they prepared to have a whole set of civil servants, police, military, airports, president, minister, a whole set of social system?
It's gonna cost alot, you can get by by being a souverign in a nation, but to make a country out of it, the cost of doing all that is massive and probably unsustainable in the long run, not to mention I don't think they have the menpower available to fill the spots.
Cityscape will also be a problem, wasteage, power supply, water lines, commerce, and social structure, transportation, passports and residents, there should spanish working in barcelona and vice versa.
All and all, not to mention the politics and tensions and possibly another civil war should they decided to separate themselves.
Ideology probably they would wnat it, but it's just not feasible without razing both of them to bits.
Anyway, this is OTT, probably I should stop now.
i'm with weaste on this. even if catalonia votes for independence, and theoretically in the long run they would be able to financially sustain themselves (if current 'fta' was in place with the rest of spain and europe), the short to medium economic pain they would suffer would be much larger and IMO devastating.
It isn't as straight forward to say....region gdp is x, taxes sent to madrid is y, services/gov monies recieved is less than y, this can financially happen.
There are a lot of moving parts and I do not believe catalonians themselves at the end of the day will swallow a generation of financial pain (worse than what it is now) to account for the transition for independence.
It isn't as straight forward to say....region gdp is x, taxes sent to madrid is y, services/gov monies recieved is less than y, this can financially happen.
There are a lot of moving parts and I do not believe catalonians themselves at the end of the day will swallow a generation of financial pain (worse than what it is now) to account for the transition for independence.
Well I doubt the 10 greater manchester boroughs could be economically viable
Theres a difference with Catalonia, it has its own culture, its own language and a long history of an independence movement, a tad different I think! Its actually pretty impressive that the catalan language has survived after Franco tried to exterminate it and catalan culture as a whole.
Well, if Catalans decide to do it, no-one could stop them.
Different circumstances but the points stands.
I dont think it would be as bad economically as your are making out but Im no economist so I wont debate that!
But with Catalonia its not a simple case of wanting out because of Spains current economic situation. They have a long history of an independence movement and any vote would be more so based on ideological grounds than economic ones.
As was under Yugoslavia constitution that no entity could be separated, or under Serbia constitution that Kosovo is a part of it. Knowing that Spain is in every aspect better than ex Yugoslavia, the war seems impossible to happen but if Catalans decide to separate, than that piece of paper could not stop them.
a free catalonia doesn't automatically get to be in the eurozone and have the lack of trade barriers/regulation with the rest of spain.
Self sufficiency analysis based purely on output and viability is only a part of the equation.
I would reckon many of the multi-nationals and larger businesses (nationals that have significant exposure to the rest of spain) that are located in catalonia do not wish for independence precisely due to the short and medium turn macro shocks from political independence.
What you are saying here is that the west part of England could rise up and become Mercia again?
What?
Well I doubt the 10 greater manchester boroughs could be economically viable
Theres a difference with Catalonia, it has its own culture, its own language and a long history of an independence movement, a tad different I think! Its actually pretty impressive that the catalan language has survived after Franco tried to exterminate it and catalan culture as a whole.
on the other hand, can we have a referendum to wall-off merseyside and kick them out of the uk?
What you are saying is crazy!
Cataluña in itself has never been a nation, it has no national identity! Are you going to start throwing the kingdom of Valencia into this?
Can we move this interesting sub debate into general / CE pls?
Well I doubt the 10 greater manchester boroughs could be economically viable
Why not? The North West of England has a bigger population than cataluña!
Well if Ferdinand didn't marry Isabel, it could have been a nation.
A different language, and having passed in a discriminate fascist system gave them some rights to ask for independence.
They have by far the largest debt of any of the Spanish autonomies, and have gone cap in hand to Madrid asking for support.
There is no point even trying to discuss this with you, as you don't even have a handle of the basic facts.
WTF, a different language. They speak basically the same language in villages in the province of Alicante!
My missus' uncle was locked up for 15 years, and it had feck all to do with being Catalan! Don't try to map political ideals onto regions. OK?
I assumed wrongly that it was an area of manchester, as you can imagine Im not too well up on manchester geography and its population distribution. However I would imagine it would be unadvisable for an area totally surrounded by the UK to cut all ties with it, but its not a realistic prospect anyway!
Difference is Catalans have their own languague their own cultures and traditions it means something more to them that monetary benefits, it might be a factor sure but its not the reason behind the movement. Im sure FCBarca could fill you in more when he comes online.
Guardiola didn't speak the same language in one of his conferences.
Why not? Franco regime and the discrimination of Catalans had nothing to do with regions?
So economically seems to be in favor of Madrid to let them separate. Oh wait...
It is true that under franco being caught speaking catalan carried an automatic prison sentence. Likewise all books and public signs in catalan was banned also. Afterall it was the likes of the Catalans and the Basques who fought against Franco in the civil war.
Talk about the Galicians then!
The war was about a political ideal.... as I said, don't talk about things you know nothing about. It's even sore now, what do you think it was, Madrid vs rest of Spain? Well it wasn't.
It was not allowed to be used in public no. But what do you define as Cataluña? The whole old kingdom of Aragon or the modern autonomy?
Galicians speaks in uni their own language (feel free to correct me if I am wrong). Everything is a political ideal, even Milosevic had a political ideal. It's only that some parts suffer from that political ideal.