Are there any successful managers that don't?
You're right, Pep should've stuck it out for the Everton job.
Pep Guardiola agrees contract with Bayern
- Thread starter Cold_Boy
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Are there any successful managers that don't?
You're right, Pep should've stuck it out for the Everton job.
Since when do you count?
Since 98
Hitzfeld 6 years
Magath 2.5 years
Hitzfeld 1.5 year
Klinsmann 9 months - Heynckes did the last 6 weeks
van Gaal 1 year and about 9 months - Co Jonker did the last 6 weeks
Heynckes 2 years
Guardiola
Hitzfeld stopped in 2004 because of a burn out.
2.5 years of Magath is really enough - I guess he never has been longer somewhere than at Bayern. He is successful - but just for short times. Hitzfeld then was just a short time solution - never meant to really last long and the change was already announced in January.
Klinsmann then was a stupidity - a big bubble... - a big mistake that did not have anything good. They stopped that experiment just in time and Heynckes saved his friend Hoeness, came back out of retirement for 6 weeks and
Heynckes came out of pension to help his friend Hoeness with the last 6 weeks and to at least get into the CL spots, helped to get the contact with van Gaal etc.
Actually it is 6 in 15 years - if you do not count the 2 periods of 6 weeks with Interim-coaches. One of them was the assistant coach. Even if you count it - as Hitzfeld and Heynckes have been here twice - it is 6 different coaches in 15 years.
Well, it's clear that the United job isn't on the table.
Perhaps in, say, three years time it might be?
Exactly. I mentioned that because some people use that stick to beat Mou. Anyway, I'm glad Pep didn't go to either City or Chelsea. It will kill me seeing one of them winning trophies while playing good football.
Indeed but for some people, Pep has to do that and more to even be considered great.
Or he has to take over a team in the Serie A and make them great. Then we can really talk.
It's a good post because everything he said was true and balanced. The Bayern job will clearly be more of a test than Barca.
The Messi point stands, he's used to having a goal/assist monster in his team. I just think it will be interesting to see how he copes without it.
Also, this whole 'Pep' love in is embarrassing, I don't see anybody calling SAF 'Alex'.
It's getting crazier every minute. Bayern's coach Jupp Heynckes is regularly called "Jupp" for example, and it's not because of love. I'm pretty sure lot's of people refer to Ferguson as Sir Alex, at least in german boards it's not uncommon. I switch between Pep and Guardiola without thinking about it. Uli Hoeneß is very often refered to as Uli, if the people in the conversation know who you're talking about, same goes for "Kalle" Rummenigge. Really depends on the person, I'm never calling Klopp "Jürgen". Not because I don't love his work, I actually think he's a way better coach than Heynckes and a more likeable person. It may not be as common in England, I really can't say, but it's not unusual and it doesn't mean anything at all.
Jesus it's come to this? People are always saying Fergie or Jose or whoever.
Well at least someone agrees with me. Surely people can see how 'easy' the Barcelona job is/was. Bayern is tougher but not the most challenging job in the world. Pep has done well but any coach would have done well at Barcelona. He may have done better than others but he did nothing ground breaking or astonishing. Now he's moved to club that has the ability to dominate world football and their league with a team full of talent, with a great youth system and vast resources. It will be interesting to see how Bayern perform but they would win trophies with or without Pep, the number and consistency will change however depending on how high a quality the coach is.
At the moment though it just seems to be me and MrMojo against the world.
No. But you do see people calling him "SAF"... It's easier to type "SAF" than it is to type "Ferguson" and it's easier to type "Pep" than it is "Guardiola". Simple as that.
Don't use logic
Guardiola has 9 letters, Pep has three.
Oh, sorry. Nine*.
Well, you ignore all aspects of the work of a football manager that don't fit your theory and just focus on "he had the best players in the world, of course his team won a lot". So it actually makes sense that most people disagree with your very simplistic point of view.
Bayern have the ability to dominate world football? Is that the excuses coming in nice and handy for when Bayern go one further than their recent attempts in the CL? You just have to look at the ages of Messi, Pique, Fabregas, Busquets, Thiago, Pedro, Alba and a few others to see that Barcelona are going to dominate for a while yet.
Your dismissal of the challenge in Germany stinks. "They would win trophies with or without Pep". Remind me who's won the Bundesliga for the past two seasons? Who destroyed Bayern in the cup final at the end of last season? In recent seasons Dortmund, Wolfsburg, Stuttgart and Bremen have all won the Bundesliga. Along with Bayern that's 5 title winners. Alex -as he shall be known from now on - wins a two horse race in which his horse is pretty much always the best and he deserves significantly more credit than someone like Guardiola who's future success is being dismissed before he's even officially taken over? Okay...
Exactly my point. Barcelona are still the best team in the world without Pep. So taking Bayern a team not on that level right now and dominating would be impressive. My other point however was that Barcelona do have the best players and had the best players when Pep was there. Barcelona were always going to win trophies.
Bayern are still the best and biggest team in Germany. You don't have to tell me that the Bundesliga has had a lot of winners in the past. That doesn't mean Bayern aren't the best though. They're going to win this season aren't they? Pep is inheriting a team good enough to win the Bundesliga quite comfortably.
United also weren't in the position Bayern are now when SAF took over. SAF revived United. He had also won in Scotland. SAF has done the incredible. Totally different to Pep's career to date.
Mmmm, maybe it is convenience, but I'm sensing a lot of love in the room.Look how many pages there are on him, a manager who has no link with United whatsoever. He's high profile of course so there will be some discussion, but this is unusual. Also, the reaction a poster gets if he even hints at anything less than glowingly praise, it's nuts. I'm going to start calling Moyes 'Dave' from now on. It's perfectly natural apparently.
My stance is an open opinon on him, I haven't yet made my mind up on how good he is. That seems odd given how much he's won, but his position at Barcelona was odd, he inherited unprecedented talent. I think it's good he's moved, I'm sure even he felt that to grow professionally he had to take himself out of the unique position he was currently in.
Barcelona still being good without Pep is irrelevant. The fact they were shite before Pep however, is relevant. Barcelona will continue to dominate for the foreseeable future so when Pep doesn't turn them into what Barcelona are now I hope no one will use that against him.
Bayern are the best in Germany, you're correct. That wasn't my argument though. You dismissed the challenge of winning in Germany despite recent seasons showing that German football is on the up and that it'll be tougher than people are saying.
Barcelona's position before Pep wasn't all that great either. The transformation speaks for itself. United beat Barcelona in the CL semi the season before Pep. The next season they meet in the CL final and get completely outclassed. I'm not talking about careers though. I'm talking about the attitude that winning the PL with Manchester United ranks as a greater accomplishment than winning La Liga with Barcelona. Both league's are pretty much two horse races the only difference being that it's a different horse racing Man United most seasons in England.
It must really piss you off when people say "RVP", eh?
This idea that inheriting a good team diminishes how good you are as a manager is utter tosh. If you can win something, then you've done well. Bayern aren't the only good team out there plus they haven't won anything for two years. We have also seen examples through history of good teams not fulfill expectations despite having a good manager and a good setup.
But now that Pep is coming, they're suddenly on top of the world again?
For the second time Swaters, you talk about Y & Z without acknowledging X yet you still think your point is sound.
And now you're comparing one of the best managers of all-time to a man who hasn't even completed 5 years in a managerial post?
But now that Pep is coming, they're suddenly on top of the world again?
For the second time Swaters, you talk about Y & Z without acknowledging X yet you still think your point is sound.
And now you're comparing one of the best managers of all-time to a man who hasn't even completed 5 years in a managerial post?
No not all, it's not really a serious point. I think the two examples are different anyway.
I bet nobody called Rijkard 'Frank' though.
It's not that it diminishes how good he is, it just makes it harder to draw the line as to how much of it was down to him and how much it was down to having an unusually large amount of world class players. This move is exactly what he needed as I reckon as a professional guy, he'd have asked the same question of himself.
Pep's a lot quicker to type than Guardiola, so is Rafa, SAF/Fergie, AVB etc.
I think the art of a manager is to form the best out of 11 individual players and find a way for them to be superior to the way the other team plays.
So having the best players might make it easier - but it does not guarantee anything.
The Bayern job for sure is a challenge for Guardiola. New country, new league, new language, new team, new playing philosophy.
Rummenigge phoned with Guardiola on Wednesday evening and he already spoke to him some sentences in German. He will work on the language the same way like he seems to do in other things - this will not be a problem.
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There is already some word games with Guardiola's name
Gaudiola e.g. - Gaudi in bavarian means fun...
So having the best players might make it easier - but it does not guarantee anything.
The Bayern job for sure is a challenge for Guardiola. New country, new league, new language, new team, new playing philosophy.
Rummenigge phoned with Guardiola on Wednesday evening and he already spoke to him some sentences in German. He will work on the language the same way like he seems to do in other things - this will not be a problem.
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There is already some word games with Guardiola's name
Gaudiola e.g. - Gaudi in bavarian means fun...
So Pep tactics should be shortened to: PG Tips?
Peptics wouldn't look bad either, or? Or - let him get a bavarian name - then it is Sepp and Septics...
So I like rüber-nüber more than tiki-taka...
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Hoeness told today that is was Guardiola who talked in 2011 with him and Rummenigge in the break of a Barcelona match at the Audi Cup and said out of himself at the Good-Byes that he could imagine working at Bayern. That is when the first ideas started.
And Pep already has seen and analyzed every match of Bayern since August and in his talks with Hoeness he knew a lot about every of the players. He learns German since November - since some weeks before his signature.
Josep Guardiola i Sala will do very well at Bayern.
I didn't start the SAF comparison someone else did. I was responding.
You don't seem to understand that I'm not saying Pep can't be a good coach. He could well be a great coach but he hasn't proven it yet. Barcelona also had more than a good setup and good team, they have the best setup with the best team.
Not to mention Pep is inheriting the team that lost to Dotrmund. He is inheriting the current Bayern, a team cruising to a league title. So he is inheriting the best team in Germany.
Yes there are plenty of good teams that don't fulfil expectations. Barcelona aren't just a good team. They have possibly the best player ever on a streak of four Ballon D'or's with several once in a generation players behind him. It was one of the best teams ever. With great unity, cohesion and understanding brought up from these players since they were children.
Bayern on the other hand are a team that can under-perform. So that'll be Pep's job. To get them to win trophies with consistency, can he do it? Well we don't know do we?
Because Frank could refer to a number of people. When someone says Pep, everyone knows who they are talking about. It's that simple.
The Financial Times ! has a great article about him
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/52dfab22-603e-11e2-b657-00144feab49a.html
It ends like this:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/52dfab22-603e-11e2-b657-00144feab49a.html
It ends like this:
if guardiola does not win a european cup with bayern, it'll be considered a failure. it's really that simple.
He should be able to do it. Squad wise they're second in Europe behind only Barcelona.
And Pep had a hand in that you eejit! He already is a great coach. You obviously don't rate him as one.
Pep deserves credit for Barca's success during his time. It's not his fault that Barca has great players. Using the same logic, you shouldn't give Messi credit for doing such amazing things in the best footballing side ever; after all, he isn't replicating his club success with Argentina - hence, Messi shouldn't be viewed as the greatest unless he can do the same at a lesser team without the help of Iniesta, Xavi and co.
Messi, just like Pep, has greatly benefited from the current Barcelona team, but that doesn't mean that he, just like Pep, shouldn't deserve all the praise that he gets. If you want Pep to get similar success at a "lesser" team before you want to give him much respect, then why don't you expect the same from Messi with a "lesser" team than the current Barca squad? You must be consistent and fair in your reasoning.
Messi, just like Pep, has greatly benefited from the current Barcelona team, but that doesn't mean that he, just like Pep, shouldn't deserve all the praise that he gets. If you want Pep to get similar success at a "lesser" team before you want to give him much respect, then why don't you expect the same from Messi with a "lesser" team than the current Barca squad? You must be consistent and fair in your reasoning.
Bayern are a well run club. Pep should do well there.
Sorry but everyone who missed how much Barcas playstyle changed under Pep has either not watched Barca enough or knows jackshit about football tactics.
If he has made the right transfers though is on another table, of course a lot of transfers under his reign were less than stellar signings but he integrated some quality youth players into the squad on the other hand.
So of course Pep makes mistakes like everyone and is sure as hell not yet the best manager to ever grace the game, but I don't think Bayern is making a mistake with him.
He has a very clear and IMO brilliant football philosophy and he is an intelligent guy who seems always willing to keep learning and improving himself.
If he has made the right transfers though is on another table, of course a lot of transfers under his reign were less than stellar signings but he integrated some quality youth players into the squad on the other hand.
So of course Pep makes mistakes like everyone and is sure as hell not yet the best manager to ever grace the game, but I don't think Bayern is making a mistake with him.
He has a very clear and IMO brilliant football philosophy and he is an intelligent guy who seems always willing to keep learning and improving himself.