Paul Scholes: Give Ole Until The End Of The Season

[Ludens the Red]

Well, not really. For Scholes, because United went 0-2 down at home to Atalanta, and weren’t winning until after the 80th minute, nothing positive could be gleaned from the performance. Rewatching the first half, it was almost the opposite of what we usually see from United: balance was better, United were getting majority of chances, but the moments (for once) all broke the other way.

I saw it as we won 3-2 but he didn’t focus at all on the score line or the fact we won the game but I get what you’re trying to say now. Hugely disagree that we had balance in that first half though. We were wide open a lot and there were huge gapes between Mcfred and the front players. There were noticeable changes in the second hand. We played a far more squeezed game.

And in regards to chances, We made chances but that’s the minimum expectancy really. I dunno I feel like on here we sometimes give way too much credit for United purely making chances. We should be making a dozen minimum every game and it should be a given.

 

[Dec9003]

I always find BT anti United regardless, the tone was set after the match by the presenter. I don’t see how anyone can look at that performance compared to how we played against the likes of Wolves and Leicester and say we weren’t better. We won the second ball more, played up the pitch quicker, the players combined with more fluidity. We were able to sustain attacks and pressure as well, something we’ve not really done in any match this season imo, not sure I agree with Scholes about the first half performance.

 

[Tyrion]

Is Paul Scholes dead to me?

I think people expect ex-United players to be biased in favour of the club. I'd rather they were just honest. I actually think Carragher is more accurate when discussing OGS than all the ex-United players because he's not clouded by the bias of being a former teammate.

 

[VidaRed]

 

[MattofManchester]

Probably the first time we've seen ex-United players at odds with each other on live TV.

I imagine, like us, some are growing concerned as to which direction we're headed.

 

[Kaos]

I'm glad Scholes went with the reality check approach and emphasised how we simply papered over the cracks here, a bit refreshing to hear some sobering truths from an ex United player. I have to admit I found Rio a little insufferable here with his head in the sand soundbites of "we gotta stay positive!". I don't think that particularly helps the club in the long run.

 

[L1nk]

Have to go with Scholes on this, we came back from 2-0 against the mighty injury ridden Atalanta and the euphoria is like we just won against prime Barcelona, nothing but the same crap for a lot of that match as we’ve seen before, call me impressed as Scholes said, if we do it against Liverpool or City, as far as im concerned as long as Ole is the manager we’ll only ever be papering over the cracks and go on bad losing runs only to beat a good team now and then and have everyone act like its a revival and Ole is driving it, basically the same thing we’ve seen for 3 seasons yet nobody has learned their lesson

 

[arthurka]

I'm glad Scholes went with the reality check approach and emphasised how we simply papered over the cracks here, a bit refreshing to hear some sobering truths from an ex United player. I have to admit I found Rio a little insufferable here with his head in the sand soundbites of "we gotta stay positive!". I don't think that particularly helps the club in the long run.

I like Rio but Scholes is absolutely spot on, never a controlled approach to any game but again reactive to an absolute horror show in the first half. Second half changed also because Atalanta had to make changes to their defence due to an injury. Ole seems to set his team up to have these kind of games.

 

[Womp]

I agree with Scholes - I feel the problem with the assessment though and also Neville constantly alludes to this too - is putting the blame down on effort. City, Liverpool and Chelsea are able to play with more intensity as the players know what to do, where to go. When our players press, it's unorganised and if anything to our detriment, as it leaves space in behind that the opposition can easily play into.

I don't think it's a matter of these players not trying, with how shite our football is, if they didn't care, Ole would have been gone a long time ago. Think it's just a matter of Ole and his staff not being able to implement a style of football which allows our team to play that way.

 

[RedSky]

Pundits are always going to play good cop / bad cop on these shows. The entire point is they make controversial opinions to try and get people talking and reacting.

Don't rate Scholes as a pundit mind, he always comes across as pissed to be there and generally brings nothing new to the table. Just recycles the same tired cliches that anyone down the pub would say. I mean, yeah, no fecking shit we'd get beaten by a better team playing that way. News flash Paul, we'd set up differently when playing the best teams. We aren't going to use the same tactics as today against Liverpool are we? it's Michael Owen standard punditry, which is no coincidence since it's BT Sport.

 

[Alek M]

Peter Crouch is an idiot. Best player for united is Bruno. He is the hardest working player no doubt.

Also Scholsey, we created plenty of chances. Attacking wise we played like we are playing a 6th placed table team. Players need to finish.

defending on the other hand. Was crap. When is inspector gadget Varane come back?

 

[Eriku]

Funny, I thought Scholes was on the Mates/Nepotism FC roster? Or so many posters on Monday would have me believe.

Now he’s suddenly some brave whistle blower

 

[Stacks]

He’s not wrong and we will probably get ripped apart at the weekend, but you have to enjoy moments like that winning goal, otherwise what’s the point. Tonight isn’t the time to be negative, enjoy the moment.

he has always been the miserable one

He was gutted we won, no doubt in my mind. He was livid we won.

I think he will be a tad embarrassed watching that back.

Why would he be livid? he has more affinity with Utd than any of us so why would he not want us to win? that's just weird. Scholes has always been blunt, realistic and a bit moody. that's all.

Imagine an Arsenal pundit or Liverpool pundit sat there fuming when their team has won, even back when both those teams were in worse situations than we are now. Wouldn’t have happened.

His point about “if we play like that against Liverpool” is a stupid one, as football doesn’t work like that. Also, even if we were the best team in the world we could be on a bad run and go 2-0 down and turn it around, it happens. Obviously his point is that we’re making the same mistakes again and the win is papering over the cracks, but in that case why is he surprised? Accept the difficulty we’re in and least celebrate a victory. Otherwise you’re not going to be happy until we’re the best team around which is stupid.

Sitting there raging that we won 3-2 and didn’t feck them up 4-0 like we would have in the good old days is the RedCafe mentality that creates the toxicity amongst e-reds.

Happens all the time especially scraping wins against average sides with few players fit. Imagine Liverpool play Wigan who have 6 players missing and they scrape a 3-2 comeback. Do you think Sourness would be dancing and beating his chest?

 

[flameinthesun]

I agree with Scholes - I feel the problem with the assessment though and also Neville constantly alludes to this too - is putting the blame down on effort. City, Liverpool and Chelsea are able to play with more intensity as the players know what to do, where to go. When our players press, it's unorganised and if anything to our detriment, as it leaves space in behind that the opposition can easily play into.

I don't think it's a matter of these players not trying, with how shite our football is, if they didn't care, Ole would have been gone a long time ago. Think it's just a matter of Ole and his staff not being able to implement a style of football which allows our team to play that way.

Totally agree, whilst you can have a first 11 of players with the workrate of Bruno, if they are all running around without direction from the coaching a lot of these issues will remain.

Also the gaps that our players have to cover to press are larger than those of pool and city, by nature of their team structure. These players are professional footballers, if LVG can teach a team with smalling and fellaini to play possession football, a good coach can get this team pressing in an effective and effecient manner.

 

[Betson]

Can't fault Scholes analysis last night , he explained how our midfielders were left hung out to dry by the formation 1st half , the 4 players posited so high ahead of the ball leaves our two midfielders exposed when teams come at us , as Scholes said even if we had the best two best central midfielders in the world they would have been in trouble last night with how we set ourselves up and how little a lot of our players work at getting back when they don't have the ball.

We can't compete with City and Liverpool etc when they have just as good and better players but they work much harder than ours when they don't have the ball etc

 

[RUCK4444]

he has always been the miserable one

Why would he be livid? he has more affinity with Utd than any of us so why would he not want us to win? that's just weird. Scholes has always been blunt, realistic and a bit moody. that's all.

Happens all the time especially scraping wins against average sides with few players fit. Imagine Liverpool play Wigan who have 6 players missing and they scrape a 3-2 comeback. Do you think Sourness would be dancing and beating his chest?

I don’t need to be told he cares about United, I worship Scholes the player…

However anybody watching his response at half time compared to that response at full time can clearly see he wanted us to lose that game.

He turned from semi-optimistic about our ability to turn it around and not overly enthusiastic either way to then turning into a ratty child at full time when we’d totally reversed the performance and gotten a dramatic win. Absolutely bizarre.

Even the presenter joked as they were closing the show that it will be nice to have Rio back to bring a smile back to the studio, or something to that effect. He didn’t even make much of a coherent argument.

 

[Offside]

Happens all the time especially scraping wins against average sides with few players fit. Imagine Liverpool play Wigan who have 6 players missing and they scrape a 3-2 comeback. Do you think Sourness would be dancing and beating his chest?

He absolutely fecking would. “The character of this squad” etc. You’re talking utter shite. How is Wigan comparable?

 

[tomaldinho1]

He's honestly just fed up now. I don't see what's wrong with some of his points:

1. Winning the EL wouldn't have been a sign of something good coming because we should never have been in the competition to begin with.
2. Pep/Klopp would have the front players working a lot harder than ours do & drop anyone not putting in effort.
3. We set up wrong to begin with, the issue isn't personnel, the midfield setup is still an issue.
4. United are more reliant on big names than any other top team, balance isn't right.

 

[Stacks]

He absolutely fecking would. “The character of this squad” etc. You’re talking utter shite. How is Wigan comparable?

I dunno. Sourness can be quite negative even during victory.

Graeme Souness has slammed Liverpool’s display in their victory over Chelsea in the Super Cup, claiming that it was their worst defensive performance of Jurgen Klopp’s reign.

"Tonight, and in the two games they played already this season, the game against [Manchester] City at Wembley and against Norwich, in terms of holding a line, when you should hold it and when you should drop off, they’ve been hopeless in these three games.

‘And tonight, this is the worst I’ve seen this Liverpool team defend since Jurgen Klopp has been there. They were all over the place."

‘They were not Liverpool, I’m not seeing a Liverpool that resembles the Liverpool we saw last season.’

Graeme Souness has criticised Liverpool’s Mo Salah for winning a penalty by falling to the ground in a “unnatural way” in their 2-1 victory over West Ham

That is a harsh penalty. You might say in the modern game that’s a penalty, but it’s not a penalty.

“I’ve seen Salah do this time and time again. I think it’s careless from the defender and he has given Salah a chance to throw himself to the ground.

“If you are 10 yards away from that, you can see that Salah has fallen down in an unnatural way, you don’t give it. But the guys in the black jerseys making these decisions keep getting it wrong.”

Graeme Souness believes Liverpool’s players will be kicking themselves for having won only two major trophies after two years of brilliance under Jurgen Klopp.

“They won the Champions League last year and are going to win the Premier League now but I still think Jurgen will look back at this period and feel they should have won more.

“In five years, if they have dominated the Premier League, if they have dominated the Champions League, then they can be considered as good as any team Liverpool has ever had. But to become a legendary team, you’ve got to become serial winners.”

fecking hell Graeme

 

[Bilbo]

Ultimately pundits are just people with opinions and a platform to convey it. They have agendas sometimes just like everybody else, but the difference is they move in circles amongst these people that they are talking about, and there's no way that doesn't have some influence on what they allow themselves to say.

I won't fault Scholes or Neville or whoever for saying whatever they want. The problem is that so many people take those views above what they themselves think or feel. It's fine to agree or disagree with them. Scholes didn't say anything controversial last night. The only issue I had was that he was coming across as a miserable bugger instead of enjoying the moments after what was an absorbing and entertaining sporting occasion.

 

[izec]

He loves his mate, but deep down he knows Ole is not good enough, but cant call him out. He cant enjoy the win, when he knows we wont win a trophy and end up in a top 4 fight with miles behind the other 3.

3 years and it is simply not good enough. Even Scholesy realised it the last couple of weeks. You can quite obviously see it that he is in an uncomfortable situation.

 

[NoLogo]

"United fans will slack me off and say I'm miserable." Well now we know for sure he reads the caf.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

You can see why he had no future in management or coaching: he’s completely incapable of analysing anything but the scoreboard.

Considering we won and he still called out the performance and put everything into perspective, he clearly sees past the score. He’s not the most flamboyant guy but he knows what a winning team looks like and we’re way off the pace.

 

[Bobcat]

Pundits are always going to play good cop / bad cop on these shows. The entire point is they make controversial opinions to try and get people talking and reacting.

Don't rate Scholes as a pundit mind, he always comes across as pissed to be there and generally brings nothing new to the table. Just recycles the same tired cliches that anyone down the pub would say. I mean, yeah, no fecking shit we'd get beaten by a better team playing that way. News flash Paul, we'd set up differently when playing the best teams. We aren't going to use the same tactics as today against Liverpool are we? it's Michael Owen standard punditry, which is no coincidence since it's BT Sport.

Ultimately pundits are just people with opinions and a platform to convey it. They have agendas sometimes just like everybody else, but the difference is they move in circles amongst these people that they are talking about, and there's no way that doesn't have some influence on what they allow themselves to say.

I won't fault Scholes or Neville or whoever for saying whatever they want. The problem is that so many people take those views above what they themselves think or feel. It's fine to agree or disagree with them. Scholes didn't say anything controversial last night. The only issue I had was that he was coming across as a miserable bugger instead of enjoying the moments after what was an absorbing and entertaining sporting occasion.

I dont have BT so i only see Scholes from online clips, but to me it seems like his whole schtick as a pundit is being a contrarian. After the terrible run in the league, he leaps to defend Ole, but after a dramatic comback win and a genuinely good second half performance hes all doom and gloom

Fantastic player, terrible pundit

 

[Poborsky's hair]

Gaving Ferguson lead us for 27 years winning all these fantastic trophies and developing so many great players is a huge part of our history and very important one but it's kind of a curse too, because of all the patience built and former players trying to snatch a job for which they wouldn't be qualified and others commenting on it. Everything in this club seems to drag for ages because simply we are too nice.

BTW when was the last time PS said something only to say a complete opposite the next week? It's clear they are all craving for Untied to win and be the best team out there but saving their face by not calling out the real culprits is what will cost us for many more seasons.

It's been 10 years of absolutely dire football, including Fergie's last three years, albeit we manage to snatch the title in his last. 10 fecking years, and we certainly deserve better. After all this time we got a very capable team short of a DM to challenge everything but again very weak manager who should be let go some time ago, yet we extend his contract and wait for another mini run of fluke results to kill another season and postpone our comeback to be the best in the world again.

Are we really sure we want to waste all these fantastic players best years? Some of them have obviously time on their side but some of them will age, lose motivation, pick injuries and we are here for another rebuild. Let's get things done and not waste our best years with another useless "give the manager his time" bullshite, when it's clear it is what it is.

 

[Kaos]

I don’t need to be told he cares about United, I worship Scholes the player…

However anybody watching his response at half time compared to that response at full time can clearly see he wanted us to lose that game.

He turned from semi-optimistic about our ability to turn it around and not overly enthusiastic either way to then turning into a ratty child at full time when we’d totally reversed the performance and gotten a dramatic win. Absolutely bizarre.

Even the presenter joked as they were closing the show that it will be nice to have Rio back to bring a smile back to the studio, or something to that effect. He didn’t even make much of a coherent argument.

What's bizarre is your take there, not what Scholes said. He's been the only ex-United player who's played with Ole to call it as it is. We're clearly not being setup or coached properly, and last nights comeback was papering over the cracks. He was right point out we'd be in trouble if we setup similarly against Liverpool.

Rio if anything was insufferable, simply burying his head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge we have a serious issue at the coaching level that will ultimately lead us to having another fruitless season if we persist with the current setup.

 

[GlasgowCeltic]

He usually contradicts himself every other sentence, in that sense I was impressed he held a view for the entire 90 minutes

 

[Doracle]

Rio made quite a lot of sense last night. He said that the first half wasn’t good enough, analysed the changes made at halftime which turned the game around and said there were positives to be taken from the 2nd half but the first half couldn’t be forgotten.

Scholes on the other hand I thought went a bit too far on the negative. He seemed to completely ignore the second half and just focus entirely on the first half, as if we’d carried on playing the same way all match.

 

[Tom Cato]

What's bizarre is your take there, not what Scholes said. He's been the only ex-United player who's played with Ole to call it as it is. We're clearly not being setup or coached properly, and last nights comeback was papering over the cracks. He was right point out we'd be in trouble if we setup similarly against Liverpool.

Rio if anything was insufferable, simply burying his head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge we have a serious issue at the coaching level that will ultimately lead us to having another fruitless season if we persist with the current setup.

Rio made a good point though.

People saying that Individual brilliance is about the player, but individual feckup is about the manager.

That seems a bit hypocritical.

 

[King7Eric]

Rio made a good point though.

People saying that Individual brilliance is about the player, but individual feckup is about the manager.

That seems a bit hypocritical.

I think this is one fallacy I really struggle to understand about our online fanbase as well. When we lose due to individual mistakes, it gets blamed on Ole for being tactically clueless. When we win though, it becomes about individuals carrying us through. It has to be one or the other, if Ole is to blame for our losses, then he's to praise for our wins. And if the players are to praise for our wins, then they have to be blamed for our losses.

 

[Smores]

I don’t need to be told he cares about United, I worship Scholes the player…

However anybody watching his response at half time compared to that response at full time can clearly see he wanted us to lose that game.

He turned from semi-optimistic about our ability to turn it around and not overly enthusiastic either way to then turning into a ratty child at full time when we’d totally reversed the performance and gotten a dramatic win. Absolutely bizarre.

Even the presenter joked as they were closing the show that it will be nice to have Rio back to bring a smile back to the studio, or something to that effect. He didn’t even make much of a coherent argument.

It's because he has standards, Sir Alex would bollock the lot of them despite the win. It was a poor performance masked by Atlanta shitting the bed and a lot of effort from us second half.

I enjoyed the comeback it was great to watch but tactically we were a shambles the first half.

 

[Stacks]

I think this is one fallacy I really struggle to understand about our online fanbase as well. When we lose due to individual mistakes, it gets blamed on Ole for being tactically clueless. When we win though, it becomes about individuals carrying us through. It has to be one or the other, if Ole is to blame for our losses, then he's to praise for our wins. And if the players are to praise for our wins, then they have to be blamed for our losses.

its always been buck starts with manager. Most goals have a degree of individual error but the best sides/defences seem to do it less

 

[JoaquinJoaquin]

Has Scholes finally gone Ole out?

 

[RUCK4444]

What's bizarre is your take there, not what Scholes said. He's been the only ex-United player who's played with Ole to call it as it is. We're clearly not being setup or coached properly, and last nights comeback was papering over the cracks. He was right point out we'd be in trouble if we setup similarly against Liverpool.

Rio if anything was insufferable, simply burying his head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge we have a serious issue at the coaching level that will ultimately lead us to having another fruitless season if we persist with the current setup.

No it’s not, watch it back, I watched it live and others said exactly the same. It was bizarre how he became angrier after the full time result compared to half time.

He was much more relaxed half time, then went into a quite cringe inducing rant about the first half again after the second half finished once we’d improved everything he was concerned about at half time,
It was weird because he was nowhere near as damning at half time.

That much is obvious. I could understand if he was fuming at half time and that carried through but the was not the case, which to me screams that he was happier with a loss (I assume to hasten Ole’s departure.)*

*But who knows, it was just that weird.

The rest of what your saying is just you being happy he agrees with your opinion, when I’m reality these shite pundits on tv should have no influence over whether a manager of United stays or leaves.

 

[Smores]

I think this is one fallacy I really struggle to understand about our online fanbase as well. When we lose due to individual mistakes, it gets blamed on Ole for being tactically clueless. When we win though, it becomes about individuals carrying us through. It has to be one or the other, if Ole is to blame for our losses, then he's to praise for our wins. And if the players are to praise for our wins, then they have to be blamed for our losses.

Why? Why would anyone be unable to make a balanced assessment of the coaching and individual player performances? Your suggesting a very narrow view.

Some individual mistakes are just pure feck ups but if you set up poorly and invite chances you'll see more errors too so it's down to opinion which is which. Likewise if a player has a weakness they repeatedly show and our tactics expose it then is the player at fault or the coach?

The reverse is true a player may score a wonderful goal with no assistance from our setup or it may result as per a system. It's not impossible to assess each.

 

[Offside]

I dunno. Sourness can be quite negative even during victory.

Graeme Souness has slammed Liverpool’s display in their victory over Chelsea in the Super Cup, claiming that it was their worst defensive performance of Jurgen Klopp’s reign.

"Tonight, and in the two games they played already this season, the game against [Manchester] City at Wembley and against Norwich, in terms of holding a line, when you should hold it and when you should drop off, they’ve been hopeless in these three games.

‘And tonight, this is the worst I’ve seen this Liverpool team defend since Jurgen Klopp has been there. They were all over the place."

‘They were not Liverpool, I’m not seeing a Liverpool that resembles the Liverpool we saw last season.’

Graeme Souness has criticised Liverpool’s Mo Salah for winning a penalty by falling to the ground in a “unnatural way” in their 2-1 victory over West Ham

That is a harsh penalty. You might say in the modern game that’s a penalty, but it’s not a penalty.

“I’ve seen Salah do this time and time again. I think it’s careless from the defender and he has given Salah a chance to throw himself to the ground.

“If you are 10 yards away from that, you can see that Salah has fallen down in an unnatural way, you don’t give it. But the guys in the black jerseys making these decisions keep getting it wrong.”

Graeme Souness believes Liverpool’s players will be kicking themselves for having won only two major trophies after two years of brilliance under Jurgen Klopp.

“They won the Champions League last year and are going to win the Premier League now but I still think Jurgen will look back at this period and feel they should have won more.

“In five years, if they have dominated the Premier League, if they have dominated the Champions League, then they can be considered as good as any team Liverpool has ever had. But to become a legendary team, you’ve got to become serial winners.”

fecking hell Graeme

Don’t think it compares to Scholes last night. Nice evidence gathering though. You’ve convinced me to some extent.

 

[Kaos]

Rio made a good point though.

People saying that Individual brilliance is about the player, but individual feckup is about the manager.

That seems a bit hypocritical.

Persistent individual feck ups are definitely on the manager. These are supposed to be elite players who play at the highest level and who more often than not play very well for their respective countries. I'd expect the odd feck up from even the most reliable of players, but to expect a series of them pretty much every game is a damning indication on how they've been coached IMO.

 

[Flexdegea]

Persistent individual feck ups are definitely on the manager. These are supposed to be elite players who play at the highest level and who more often than not play very well for their respective countries. I'd expect the odd feck up from even the most reliable of players, but to expect a series of them pretty much every game is a damning indication on how they've been coached IMO.

Same way persistent individual brilliance is on the manager too, strong indication of how they are being coached..........I'm I doing this right?

 

[matsdf]

Persistent individual feck ups are definitely on the manager. These are supposed to be elite players who play at the highest level and who more often than not play very well for their respective countries. I'd expect the odd feck up from even the most reliable of players, but to expect a series of them pretty much every game is a damning indication on how they've been coached IMO.

Then persistent individual brilliance should be on the manager as well...

 

[Kaos]

Same way persistent individual brilliance is on the manager too, strong indication of how they are being coached..........I'm I doing this right?

Then persistent individual brilliance should be on the manager as well...

Not really. The fact we have to constantly rely on moments of individual brilliance to bail us out is also a poor indication on the manager. The best coaches tend not to tailor their gameplans on hoping their best players score absolute worldies, while we spend the remainder of the gaming looking bereft of ideas.

Persistent defensive feck ups are definitely an indication we're being organised poorly by the coaching staff.