Paul Scholes: Give Ole Until The End Of The Season

[NewGlory]

This is not true - Chelsea were 11 points off top spot (which just happened to be Ole's Manchester United) and 5 points off 4th

We are currently 5 points off top spot and 1 point from 4th place, which is why talk of the sack is premature

We will be there in a month or so. And we will be out of UCL. Chelsea, in contrast was very much still in UCL and was able to win it once good manager was brought in.

It's pretty much guaranteed where we will be in 3-4 games. If you don't want to see and really have to wait for inevitable, you are willingly letting our club be thrown into a ditch. We are going to lose to both City and Liverpool. Everywhere and their grandmother knows this.

If your car is headed for a fatal crash, you see a train and collision path, you don't just keep the course and say "well, maybe it won't happen"

 

[Bastian]

Yeah he did, we had no business finishing 2nd under Mourinho. It took the single greatest season by a keeper to get us there. What was Mourinho's plan? Try nick an early goal and proceed to have our goal peppered by the opposition?

I didn't say it was an admirable plan. But under Ole there is no coherence. That was my point. As well as pointing out the double standards when it came to Mourinho and Ole, when in reality neither proved good enough.

 

[11101]

I love Scholes the player but all he's done in punditry and coaching so far suggests he's not exactly mastermind. He's also joint owner of a club that changes managers more frequently than he changes his underwear.

It wouldn't surprise me if Ole ends up involved with Salford somehow after he leaves here.

 

[Revan]

What do we have to lose if we do so? Just another year and the peak of some players.

Nostalgia FC

 

[0le]

I must say, I like the OP's use of the indent tags.

 

[el3mel]

This is not true - Chelsea were 11 points off top spot (which just happened to be Ole's Manchester United) and 5 points off 4th

We are currently 5 points off top spot and 1 point from 4th place, which is why talk of the sack is premature

Spurs who have had an absolute shit of a start to their season are already ahead of us in the table. Just stop.

 

[el3mel]

Yeah he did, we had no business finishing 2nd under Mourinho. It took the single greatest season by a keeper to get us there. What was Mourinho's plan? Try nick an early goal and proceed to have our goal peppered by the opposition?

Nothing much has changed since then I guess. Our current plan is "let Bruno and Greenwood work their magic and pray to God we don't concede".

 

[Van Piorsing]

Perhaps he says that because he knows something about decisions from the board ?

 

[Barthez]

Agree 100% - Im sick of constantly changing or posters always wanting the next shiny new toy. Let’s see how he does. If he comes up short after a full season of football then let’s look at it again in the summer.

 

[tjb]

Nothing much has changed since then I guess. Our current plan is "let Bruno and Greenwood work their magic and pray to God we don't concede".

See this is where Ole is failing massively. There is no way our midfield should be this much of a hindrance. We also have Ronaldo, Sancho and cavani, but regardless of who plays, we struggle so much at giving any of these attackers the ball in good positions. Bruno literally creates chances for himself and others out of form and Greenwood can score from seemingly bad situations.

My take on it is this. For a team that struggles to build out of the back, we do it way too much. Ole simply copies the trends that a lot of managers use, but since it's not original, he doesn't know how to use it and how much to use it. We really should be getting the ball down the pitch and working our midfielders, since they don't have the ability to create a Tempo fast enough to catch the opposition out or keep possession well enough to control games. Instead we play a slow, monotonous brand that leaves all our attackers marked. Hoping for 2 or 3 possessions a game where we get it right; then scrapping or tumescent moving the ball around ( with 0 pressure) for the rest of the time. Bruno may provide about 2 additional moments of pure magic, but that's it.

 

[soapythecat]

Sad thing is, I’d bet my last £ that he knows exactly what’s going on within the club. Ole is safe until we are beyond out of reach top 4.
The biggest problem with this club right now is the shackles it has to the SAF era. This players seem to think they are untouchable but the truth is many who played under SAF have failed miserable in management, yet they all hold way too much weight in what goes on at OT.

 

[tjb]

Agree 100% - Im sick of constantly changing or posters always wanting the next shiny new toy. Let’s see how he does. If he comes up short after a full season of football then let’s look at it again in the summer.

A few years ago I would have agreed. But this season, that's not the case. It's not that Ole is just performing poorly, but we finally have a squad good enough to win ot challenge for the league. We can't afford to keep wasting seasons. It's just not the losses, but it's the clear lack of planning and direction that are apparent in these games. We have Ronaldo varane pogba broluno sancho Greenwood rashford. We pay alot of money for that and can't just waste their primes/last years on experimenting.

For me it goes even further. Ole showed his inexperience last season with the lack of preparation we had to start the season. That was amateur from him and the type of thing that loses you trophies. I'm saying this to say that most managers would not have been that unprepared, and his competitors, klopp tuchel and pep certainly aren't. We can't afford to wait and teach a manager when we have superstars wanting to and expecting to win. Despite the influx of talent, we still can't break teams down, we still struggle in our build up, we still have poor starts, we still struggle in possession. There are teams with far worse players than Fred and mctominay that can dominate games. Why waste time being nice when it's becoming clear that Ole and his team don't know what to do. That's another thing. It's not just Ole, when your team is as inexperienced as Ole's team and seemingly showing no cleat strategy...it makes no sense to wait that long.

 

[redrobed]

Scholes told The Overlap : "I think he deserves a chance. If you think about the last three or four years about where United had been, it has been shocking, hasn't it? It had not been great to watch before he came.​

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"It has took him two or three years to build a squad where we think the pieces are there to the puzzle, it's just getting them in that right organisation.​

​

"There was a lot of excitement at the start of the season after four or five games; they beat Newcastle (4-1) and beat Leeds (5-1) and the last two games have been disappointing.​

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"But I think he deserves a chance. He has built a squad where he should be given a year, at least this season, to show that he can manage that and win trophies."​

​

https://www.manchestereveningnews.c...kjaer-manchester-united-paul-scholes-21861743​

You are an absolute legend and one of the main reasons I started supporting this club but I have to disagree here.

We’re probably on course to not even get Champions League football at the moment. If that’s the case and we stick with him only to sack him at the end of the season then we’ve missed out on giving ourselves a chance at top 4 and getting the ‘bedding in’ period for the new manager out the way ready for a serious title challenge next season.

 

[Ixion]

The biggest problem with this club right now is the shackles it has to the SAF era. This players seem to think they are untouchable but the truth is many who played under SAF have failed miserable in management, yet they all hold way too much weight in what goes on at OT.

But they learned from the greatest, it only makes sense that anyone that played under him will be just as good. Ole just needs 4 years to come good exactly like Fergie then it's party time.

 

[United Hobbit]

No, he shouldn't be given until the end of the season, he should be gone already and should never have been renewed

People need to be able to differentiate between Ole the player and Ole the manager.

If they'd just not renewed him, he'd have left with a warm reception, and thanks for the green shoots he'd started to lay

We are now already going backwards, and could be back to square one at this rate.

Of course his mates will defend him, though I'm sure I saw somewhere Gary Neville were quite scathing.

He's protected by what he did as a player, hence why the fans won't turn either. If this was a manager who had no links to the clubs history, he'd be getting absolutely hammered. I seem to recall Scholes being quite scathing towards previous managers, I used to enjoy listening to him. I think he'd be the same with Ole if there was no history there.

Even if we get absolutely annihilated by Liverpool Sunday, the fans won't turn. It'll be an absolute cauldron of hostility, but they will turn their anger on the Liverpool fans. If he uses cowardly tactics against them and we still get battered, I think he will have lost the likes of Ronaldo/Bruno et Al in the dressing room, if he hasn't started to already

We need to be ruthless like Chelsea were with Lampard. Look what their season ended with. Yes it would have been a dream scenario for him to come back restore the culture and lead us to trophies. Unfortunately he's shown for a while now he's not capable of doing so, and it's time to thank him for the foundations he's laid and move on before it turns into a nightmare.

With this squad, bar the DM option, he should have nowhere to hide. SAF won multiple trophies with "worse" sides.

Would Ole have won a trophy, let alone the treble, with the 99 team?

 

[OleBoiii]

Based Scholes.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

He'll get to the end of the year because the odds of the Glazers sacking him a couple of months into a 3 yr contract is pretty damn low

I wouldn't read too much into the contract. They sacked Moyes nine months into a six year deal and they sacked Mourinho months after giving him an extension.

 

[Sarni]

We’ve already wasted 8 years (!) post Fergie not being competitive at all. I don’t get why we should ‘wait’ to get even more.

 

[big rons sovereign]

A few years ago I would have agreed. But this season, that's not the case. It's not that Ole is just performing poorly, but we finally have a squad good enough to win ot challenge for the league. We can't afford to keep wasting seasons. It's just not the losses, but it's the clear lack of planning and direction that are apparent in these games. We have Ronaldo varane pogba broluno sancho Greenwood rashford. We pay alot of money for that and can't just waste their primes/last years on experimenting.

For me it goes even further. Ole showed his inexperience last season with the lack of preparation we had to start the season. That was amateur from him and the type of thing that loses you trophies. I'm saying this to say that most managers would not have been that unprepared, and his competitors, klopp tuchel and pep certainly aren't. We can't afford to wait and teach a manager when we have superstars wanting to and expecting to win. Despite the influx of talent, we still can't break teams down, we still struggle in our build up, we still have poor starts, we still struggle in possession. There are teams with far worse players than Fred and mctominay that can dominate games. Why waste time being nice when it's becoming clear that Ole and his team don't know what to do. That's another thing. It's not just Ole, when your team is as inexperienced as Ole's team and seemingly showing no cleat strategy...it makes no sense to wait that long.

The lack of preparation last season was down to having no preseason. How you can pin that on Ole I have no idea. United and city had 2 weeks. Whilst the rest of the league had pretty much a full preseason.
Ole has his faults but he has no control over a covid ridden calendar.

 

[Bubz27]

Yeah, let him have the season, turn this form around into some mediocre form and good results when the pressure is off and nothing to play for and repeat again ad nauseum.

 

[dannyrhinos89]

I appreciate what they achieved as players but it’s also getting very tedious seeing ex players rambling on constantly about the club.

There‘s no other club where ex players are talking and sticking their nose in so much about issues that don‘t really involve them.

 

[NextSeason]

Fair enough, let's hear it then. Though I would really love to eat humble pie on this one I cannot see a world in which Ole is a successful United manager, challenging for and winning leagues and CLs. Scholes' contention is:

"But I think he deserves a chance. He has built a squad where he should be given a year, at least this season, to show that he can manage that and win trophies."

So Ole remaining at the club beyond this season is contingent on what happening this year? Top four and Round of 16? If he achieves that but the performances are as shaky as they've been this year, Leeds aside, does he get backed to bring in a midfielder or two in the summer, and then does he deserve the chance to manage that new team in 2022/23?

The fear many of us have is that Ole getting a chance to cement the good he most certainly has done in the job with one more season has (so far) meant dropped points and poor football against multiple teams we should be beating comfortably, some admittedly good results against big teams but in matches where we have ceded the initiative (nothing wrong with this occasionally if you get the results to be fair) or we've stayed solid and bored everyone to tears (more wrong with this in my opinion) and absolutely no trophies despite quite a few decent shots at some minor pots.

The squad has improved year on year, and credit is due for that, but has Ole proved he is the man to bring the kind of consistency required to challenge for the league and CL? Not for me, we could and should be doing better on that key aspect of consistency; playing good football most weeks, putting lower teams away most times while staying broadly competitive in games against rivals. This year we've had what I would call a very poor start in terms of performances and a patchy/poor start in terms of results given who we've played in our first dozen or so, so this month is make or break for our season and in my opinion Ole's United tenure. If results and performances continue on a downward trajectory work simply must be ongoing behind the scenes to replace Ole, it just must be.

On the other hand what do you need to see from us this month to satisfy you that we're on the right track with Ole? What do you need to see come May?

First of all, we need some results this week. Then we need to see significant improvements in performances to pick up results over the next 4-6 weeks otherwise Ole will find himself in an actual untenable position (he's not in one now). In terms of the season, I want to see us win a trophy, reach the CL QFs at least and for us to finish no more than 12 points away from the eventual league winners.

I'm certainly no loyal backer as I wanted Poch in, Ole out a year ago but now I don't see an alternative that I think is worth the risk of changing mid-season. Also, Ole showed us last year that he could turn around a poor league start so, together with the fact he has been part of improving the quality of the squad, I think he deserves the chance to see what he can achieve this season.

 

[NextSeason]

It’s really not though. You going to tag the posters in question or just throw useless barbs around?

It would be a full-time job having to tag every poster on here who comes across like that to me and we would have a new manager every 6 months if it was left down to people on here. Look no further than the people that are mentioning Chelsea as a club that we should try and act more like just because their most recent sacking/hiring has paid off, while ignoring all their failed appointments. I don't think those people get what United are about at all and yes, I do want success as much as they do.

 

[Flexdegea]

I agree with scholes.

If it completely snowballs then take action, but I'm not fan of short term appointments early in season, to go back into another cycle, and more years set backs.


Literally only couple of managers that excite me at moment, and has to be a long term appointment, and lot of the name people are crying for are short term........Conte for one. Wouldn't want him anywhere near us

 

[Plant0x84]

I think GNev makes a couple of good points on this, namely looks and feels worse than it is and that Oles progress has to be looked at in the context of LVG and Mourinho bring the club to its knees.
Im not an Ole diehard who want him at the club to build a Sir Alex style dynasty, but he deserves his shot. He’s had 2 full years to steady and build - this year is make or break. He has to win something, but that can’t be achieved in 10 or so games whoever we have played. He gets the season with his squad to challenge and if we are still trophy-less in May we move on.
I think that is a reasonable way forward.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

First of all, we need some results this week. Then we need to see significant improvements in performances to pick up results over the next 4-6 weeks otherwise Ole will find himself in an actual untenable position (he's not in one now). In terms of the season, I want to see us win a trophy, reach the CL QFs at least and for us to finish no more than 12 points away from the eventual league winners.

I'm certainly no loyal backer as I wanted Poch in, Ole out a year ago but now I don't see an alternative that I think is worth the risk of changing mid-season. Also, Ole showed us last year that he could turn around a poor league start so, together with the fact he has been part of improving the quality of the squad, I think he deserves the chance to see what he can achieve this season.

October and November are a must; if results and performances flatline he'll need to go, without question. If we do get some results and steady the ship in our CL group I'd agree with you that I wouldn't expect nor want the axe to fall on Ole this side of Christmas.

That said the phrase you finish with is a worrying one for me; whether it's posters on Redcafe, pundits such as Scholes or indeed my own inner voice saying it. Barring hideous runs of form that make Ole's position untenable there is always going to be a reason why Ole arguably deserves another season just to see whether he can make it click. We're through lockdown, we've just signed player x to sort out problem position y once and for all, at last we have a DoF or a new set piece coach etc. but honestly when do we get to the point where we have to conclude that Ole, good work in certain areas notwithstanding, is not the man to take us back to the top? When do we acknowledge there are obviously better managers in the world than Ole and start to see the benefit of sounding out a new man to try to take us a step or two further?

To be fair to you and to Scholes you're talking about a chance at this season, and as I say if he can guide us out of this tough upcoming period looking ok I'll be with you in not wanting a rash decision made during the season. My overarching fear though is if we keep finding reasons to give Ole a chance we'll be left asking the same questions we're asking now while the likes of City, Chelsea, Liverpool and Newcastle(!) are free to hoover up the trophies between them.

 

[Vidyoyo]

We’ve already wasted 8 years (!) post Fergie not being competitive at all. I don’t get why we should ‘wait’ to get even more.

On the flip side, we've already spent 8 years not being competitive, what's another 6 months? If you live until 80 then Ole being manager is only 0.625% of your life. Barely anything.

 

[Zen86]

Some people would rather pay attention to Danny Blind in his role as head of the Donny appreciation society.

 

[Paxi]

It would be a full-time job having to tag every poster on here who comes across like that to me and we would have a new manager every 6 months if it was left down to people on here. Look no further than the people that are mentioning Chelsea as a club that we should try and act more like just because their most recent sacking/hiring has paid off, while ignoring all their failed appointments. I don't think those people get what United are about at all and yes, I do want success as much as they do.

I don’t see many people calling for managers head every six months. People use Chelsea as a barometer in order to raise a point that we don’t need to give managers time to implement an idea considering they’ve been one of the most successful teams in the country since their takeover.

What is it that United are about exactly?

 

[Lee565]

This was on the same show where Scholes said Steve Bruce deserved more time at Newcastle and his reasoning was because he was bias due to playing with bruce so it is pointless taking him serious when it comes to managers that are ex united players he has played with.

 

[NextSeason]

I don’t see many people calling for managers head every six months. People use Chelsea as a barometer in order to raise a point that we don’t need to give managers time to implement an idea considering they’ve been one of the most successful teams in the country since their takeover.

What is it that United are about exactly?

More than words can explain, you should know that.

 

[Flytan]

I'm largely with you here. If we had brought in coaching experts rather than rookie coaches/former players, we would probably not be having this discussion.

I think we all liked OGS' talk about Manchester United DNA and his attacking mindset, but the reality is that it hasn't worked.

Whatever formation, whatever players we put on the pitch, we look like a bunch of lads who just met in a pub

Here's a question. Of all this collection of coaching staff, who is responsible for the defence?

I honestly don't have a clue what any of the coaches do except for the new set piece coach (he was hired to work on offensive set pieces I believe). I also want to know why Carrick always has ear buds in during games. Weird as hell. But yeah, it's a collection of former players up and down the club hierarchy who seem to never be replaced despite not performing good enough. People say "Ole should bring in assistants that know what they're doing", but does he know any? He was the manager of a Norwegian team and Cardiff. When your manager isn't qualified to be the manager why would there be assistants willing to work under him?

 

[Rood]

@Rood, I don't think you needed to quote Scholes in your OP - your points are strong enough on their own in my opinion. I'm with you on this and reading through some of the other replies, it really is like reading the thoughts of inpatient hyperactive children sometimes. Perhaps we should limit this thread to talking constructively about how we move forward with Ole while there are dozens of other threads to slate Ole and everyone else associated to keeping him on.

Thats exactly why I started the thread - an avalanche of negativity and threads about the same bloody thing!
But ye probably didnt need to quote Scholes as you just end up with endless 'Mates FC' jibes

I know Old Trafford will be behind the manager this week as there tends to be more patience in the ground than online, but something does have to change immediately as even the loyal matchgoers will not accept more home losses

Now Ole deserves some criticism for the poor start to the season but my point is thats its far from a lost cause and we saw him turn it around from a worse position this time last year - its hardly beyond possibility that we beat the Scousers on the weekend and then we would be only 1 point behind them so talk of sacking the manager is extremely premature

 

[Tyrion]

Mates FC with the support I see

Neville was the same on the weekend. He dismissed all criticms as "well the club has learned that instability isn't the way to go" or something like that. I think he's forgotten about Chelsea sacking Lampard. And City sacking Pelligrini. And Liverpool sacking Rodgers.

 

[Rood]

Fair enough, let's hear it then. Though I would really love to eat humble pie on this one I cannot see a world in which Ole is a successful United manager, challenging for and winning leagues and CLs. Scholes' contention is:

"But I think he deserves a chance. He has built a squad where he should be given a year, at least this season, to show that he can manage that and win trophies."

So Ole remaining at the club beyond this season is contingent on what happening this year? Top four and Round of 16? If he achieves that but the performances are as shaky as they've been this year, Leeds aside, does he get backed to bring in a midfielder or two in the summer, and then does he deserve the chance to manage that new team in 2022/23?

The fear many of us have is that Ole getting a chance to cement the good he most certainly has done in the job with one more season has (so far) meant dropped points and poor football against multiple teams we should be beating comfortably, some admittedly good results against big teams but in matches where we have ceded the initiative (nothing wrong with this occasionally if you get the results to be fair) or we've stayed solid and bored everyone to tears (more wrong with this in my opinion) and absolutely no trophies despite quite a few decent shots at some minor pots.

The squad has improved year on year, and credit is due for that, but has Ole proved he is the man to bring the kind of consistency required to challenge for the league and CL? Not for me, we could and should be doing better on that key aspect of consistency; playing good football most weeks, putting lower teams away most times while staying broadly competitive in games against rivals. This year we've had what I would call a very poor start in terms of performances and a patchy/poor start in terms of results given who we've played in our first dozen or so, so this month is make or break for our season and in my opinion Ole's United tenure. If results and performances continue on a downward trajectory work simply must be ongoing behind the scenes to replace Ole, it just must be.

On the other hand what do you need to see from us this month to satisfy you that we're on the right track with Ole? What do you need to see come May?

4th place and last 16 would actually not be enough for me to support Ole going into another season - for me there has to be consistent progress and for the last 2 years there absolutely has been but that means this season we have to be in the mix for a title challenge, win the FA Cup or go deep in the CL

Ole is at the point now where things need to change immediately starting with the 2 home games this week - the matchgoing fans are patient and desperate to see Ole succeed but if we lose to the Scousers or City at home then the tide will start to turn

 

[MUFC OK]

We will be there in a month or so. And we will be out of UCL. Chelsea, in contrast was very much still in UCL and was able to win it once good manager was brought in.

It's pretty much guaranteed where we will be in 3-4 games. If you don't want to see and really have to wait for inevitable, you are willingly letting our club be thrown into a ditch. We are going to lose to both City and Liverpool. Everywhere and their grandmother knows this.

If your car is headed for a fatal crash, you see a train and collision path, you don't just keep the course and say "well, maybe it won't happen"

Completely agree. There is huge aura of inevitability about where we are heading with this run of games. I seriously think we'll be left with hoping for top 4 and may be the FA Cup/EL. We could realistically be out of both major comps after the City game as you say.

 

[MrSingh2002]

feck that. Zero excuses.

Look at the teams and squads that are above us in the league and around us.

 

[croadyman]

Thats exactly why I started the thread - an avalanche of negativity and threads about the same bloody thing!
But ye probably didnt need to quote Scholes as you just end up with endless 'Mates FC' jibes

I know Old Trafford will be behind the manager this week as there tends to be more patience in the ground than online, but something does have to change immediately as even the loyal matchgoers will not accept more home losses

Now Ole deserves some criticism for the poor start to the season but my point is thats its far from a lost cause and we saw him turn it around from a worse position this time last year - its hardly beyond possibility that we beat the Scousers on the weekend and then we would be only 1 point behind them so talk of sacking the manager is extremely premature

Nik please wake up it will end in tears like Moyes, LVG & Jose just not until we hit the abyss of course, enough with this loyal matchgoing fans crap who maybe even starting to turn if leaving early on Saturday is anything to go by. We only got 2nd last season because Chelsea had the wrong guy in charge until Jan and Liverpool had no defence at all.

 

[Castia]

Agree 100% - Im sick of constantly changing or posters always wanting the next shiny new toy. Let’s see how he does. If he comes up short after a full season of football then let’s look at it again in the summer.

He’s had almost 3 years it’s clear as day he’s never winning the league all we’re doing is wasting time.

I appreciate the job he’s done, the squad is in good shape but we need a top coach to take us over the line.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

4th place and last 16 would actually not be enough for me to support Ole going into another season - for me there has to be consistent progress and for the last 2 years there absolutely has been but that means this season we have to be in the mix for a title challenge, win the FA Cup or go deep in the CL

Ole is at the point now where things need to change immediately starting with the 2 home games this week - the matchgoing fans are patient and desperate to see Ole succeed but if we lose to the Scousers or City at home then the tide will start to turn

That's the word isn't it. By far the most disappointing thing about Ole's reign is the deep troughs we have fallen into after every good run of form and the manner of the defeats late in cup competitions. I see no signs that Ole will be able to get us competing consistently for major honours and crucially playing good progressive football more times than not. For that reason I'd like this season to be his last as United manager (barring a miraculous turnaround this year, which would be fantastic).

I saw in the podcast thread you don't want to argue the hypotheticals of last season: 'What if Liverpool didn't have injuries? What if Chelsea had started the season with Tuchel? etc. which is fair enough, but I think the fact remains Ole will find it harder to show progress this year than he did last year, given the lie of the land at rival clubs plus the fact Ole did progress us last year in terms of league finish. The Covid fixture pile-up aside this season looks to be a tougher ask for Ole, as it would be for anyone, and so far it's not looking like he's up for the challenge. As we've all said this run up to mid December is make or break.