Paul Scholes: Give Ole Until The End Of The Season

Realistically looked at, what would happen, if Ole gets sacked? Either there is another interim, maybe one of Carrick, McKenna, you know the names I guess. That isn't a great outlook I'd say. If we sack Ole and want to go for an actual manager we have made a difficult decision even more difficult because we limit ourselves to the managers, who are available right now. (The better ones will value their integrety and switch clubs three month into the season.) The available ones would be Conte and Zidane. What if those two aren't suited for us? What if their vision doesn't align with the one of Fletcher and Murtough? What if we haven't scouted them properly, not done background checks.

I totally understand the feeling of needing a change, but is that really the smartest decision now? If there is a contingency plan, now is the time to execute it. If there isn't such a plan, people should work massive overtimes to create that plan. But going forward without an actual plan is what got us here in the first place. Got us Mourinho after LVG. Got Ole the permanent job prematurely. At some point we have to stop making decisions based on feelings, be that euphoric ones or very bad ones. We have to act smart - City waited something like a year for their man and prepared everything, then he came in and the journey started. Not saying we have to wait only for sake of waiting but a short-term decision may cost us even more time. Going without a plan has the potential to damage the current squad. Now it is Murtoughs time to shine, he needs to do the dirty work to find the suitable candidates and make a decision.
 
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You can't really give any credence to what his ex-teammates say in terms of giving him time. At the end of the season they'd probably still say give him more time if we finished 10th. The season can actually be resurrected if you take action now, you only need to look at Chelsea last year for that, it can't be resurrected after the season is finished.

The thing is the same ex-teammates can often see all the problems, like Gary Neville will normally point out all the tactical mistakes, talk about surprise at the same 11 being picked as mid-week, but then still say give them more time. There's no actual reason to believe the latter point though outside of blind loyalty, it doesn't tie in with what they otherwise say tearing our performances to shreds.
 
Rood said:
A bit of both

I believe that when you have invested in a manager's vision and he built a top squad over 3 years that he should get every chance to fix any problems

I said previously in this thread that he gets to International Break (so another 3 matches) to prove he can fix the issues



Absolutely things have to change and for me Ole gets a couple more weeks to change it before I call it a dead cause
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I am so confused as to what you are realistically expecting to happen in 3 matches. He's been here for almost 3 years. This is it. There are no big changes that will suddenly happen. I mean even if I believed in him (which I don't at this point), I think you're asking a lot of him if you expect any meaningful change in approach over 3 matches. For example, today we tried to press and did it badly; can we realistically become a good pressing side over the next 3 matches? It is far too little time. When we play City, I guess he can go back to the sit-deep-and-counter approach, but even if he does and we do win that game, it is one game and doesn't change much in the grand scheme of things.

Genuinely trying to understand what the best case scenario is for the next 3 matches that would make it seem that we are on the right track again, and if that is at all realistic.
 
Siezard said:
Clubs usually struggle when they made major changes to their first 11. Here, we have 3 major disruptions.

But things will get better especially with CR7 around.
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Be a valid point if it were not 10 players who started when fit last season plus Ronaldo.
 
Rood said:
A bit of both

I believe that when you have invested in a manager's vision and he built a top squad over 3 years that he should get every chance to fix any problems

I said previously in this thread that he gets to International Break (so another 3 matches) to prove he can fix the issues



Absolutely things have to change and for me Ole gets a couple more weeks to change it before I call it a dead cause
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He isn't going to prove anything. It'll be the usual over the next couple of months, a few good results that get fists pumping and a few crop ones that expose us. We're never going to be a top class side under this manager and hanging on to a few wins /runs of form will do nothing but delay the inevitable.
 
hobbers said:
Wining the next 3 matches would prove jack shit.

Ole is not good enough to manage a club of this level and we won't be finishing in the top four if he stays in charge this season. Even if we beat Spurs and City.
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Agree with the first part of the post: even if we win the next 6, it still proves nothing. He has shown he is not the right man.

But the second part- to hell with top 4. With the squad we have, top 4 should be a given. I’m tired of hearing about it. I’m tired of talking about it. We are becoming liverpool. With the talent we have, we need to start talking titles again.

The performances this year are straight out garbage so far. Bring a new coach in and lets try to actually win something this year and change the mood around the club.
 
No matter what players you've got if the set up is not right it's not right, slow slow slow, then to quick with the ball, it's a shambles .
It's not a coincidence that the errors in games are coming from a lack of awareness intensity not reacting to different things on the pitch.
Imo that comes down to to many prima Donna's on the pitch, who all want the attention.

Now I'd dropp at least 5 of those 11 from Sundays game. Maguire being 1 Shaw the other his fecking head has gone back to what it was, under Jose, complacency he's in the England fold now happy days. Bruno out , Jesse lingard in , Sancho in Greenwood out, and Cavani in Ronny out , Fred out DVB in.

The predictable 11 ole picks when all fit he goes with the 2 CM . This hasn't worked properly most of the time, and has gone to pot since Ronny came in. Paul Scholes called thus outcome on Wednesday night , because like most UTD followers can see its a Shambles.

Oles getting until next International break . Then he's out, unless fortunes change .?
 
NZT-One said:
Realistically looked at, what would happen, if Ole gets sacked? Either there is another interim, maybe one of Carrick, McKenna, you know the names I guess. That isn't a great outlook I'd say. If we sack Ole and want to go for an actual manager we have made a difficult decision even more difficult because we limit ourselves to the managers, who are available right now. (The better ones will value their integrety and switch clubs three month into the season.) The available ones would be Conte and Zidane. What if those two aren't suited for us? What if their vision doesn't align with the one of Fletcher and Murtough? What if we haven't scouted them properly, not done background checks.

I totally understand the feeling of needing a change, but is that really the smartest decision now? If there is a contingency plan, now is the time to execute it. If there isn't such a plan, people should work massive overtimes to create that plan. But going forward without an actual plan is what got us here in the first place. Got us Mourinho after LVG. Got Ole the permanent job prematurely. At some point we have to stop making decisions based on feelings, be that euphoric ones or very bad ones. We have to act smart - City waited something like a year for their man and prepared everything, then he came in and the journey started. Not saying we have to wait only for sake of waiting but a short-term decision may cost us even more time. Going without a plan has the potential to damage the current squad. Now it is Murtoughs time to shine, he needs to do the dirty work to find the suitable candidates and make a decision.
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You can’t keep a crap manager if there is no obvious replacement.

You sack a manger if they are crap at their job.

I have my own business and if the manager was ruining my business, I wouldn’t keep them on and ruin it even more.

What’s obvious to everyone seems is not obvious to Ole. I know exactly what happened at OT yesterday. Ole basically bottled it. He firstly bottled dropping Ronaldo again after the stick he got after the Everton game. Secondly he bottled sticking to his way of playing (counter attacking ) and tried to change into a pressing team without actually working on it.

There was so much more wrong with the performance against Liverpool that I can’t write it all down. To summarise, Ole has taken Utd as far as he can. He has put Utd into the best position to hand over to the next manager, than any other manager at this club (Including Fergie). If Utd are not careful and don’t do anything now, all that hard work this club has put in the last 3 years will all be a waste and we will be back where we were when Mourhino was sacked.
 
Ali Dia said:
He isn’t going to get sacked unless we fall right down the table.
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Spurs and City up next alongside a what could be defining CL trip to Italy. Watch this space. Going into the Europa after the Groups would be the icing on it to be fair.
 
noodlehair said:
Are you sure?

That was quite possibly and legitimately both the worst result and performance in our modern history...and not only that but it was entirely predictable, entirely because our manager's ineptness has become entirely predictable.

If you have a squad that allows you to leave Sancho, Cavani and Pogba on the bench, then really any defeat prior to achieving success should be bringing questions about your managerial ability. We're not talking about that. We're talking about a situation where we lose 5-0 at home and it's barely even a surprise. The fact this situation exists in the first place is as damming a verdict as there will ever be for any united manager.

At no point under Moyes, Lvg or Jose would I have expected something as bad as that. Today I did because it wasn't really any worse than anything else we've served up recently
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You know things are bad when noodles is in full hyperbolic rant mode and you don’t disagree with a word he says.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
The longer this season goes on, the more this season just becomes pointless.

With the squad at have we could actually maybe do something in the Champions League ala Chelsea (provided we get a midfielder in Jan)... But it requires someone competent in charge
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Yeah that's what's so frustrating for me. Every day with Ole in charge is another day wasted with this squad. It won't be too long before we have to address the striker problem, I'd rather not have us waste what's left of Ronaldo and Cavani on this shite.
 
The stick Scholes got pointing out the obvious on Wednesday was annoying. Head in the sand stuff because Atalanta bottled it.
 
noodlehair said:
Are you sure?

That was quite possibly and legitimately both the worst result and performance in our modern history...and not only that but it was entirely predictable, entirely because our manager's ineptness has become entirely predictable.

If you have a squad that allows you to leave Sancho, Cavani and Pogba on the bench, then really any defeat prior to achieving success should be bringing questions about your managerial ability. We're not talking about that. We're talking about a situation where we lose 5-0 at home and it's barely even a surprise. The fact this situation exists in the first place is as damming a verdict as there will ever be for any united manager.

At no point under Moyes, Lvg or Jose would I have expected something as bad as that. Today I did because it wasn't really any worse than anything else we've served up recently
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Can't disagree with any of that
 
The only thing I hate in all this is the “give him to the end of the season” nonsense. We’re 9 games in, a change now, as Tuchel proved, could turn this from a nothing wasted season for the likes of Ronaldo and Cavani, to a successful one.

I can never agree with throwing away a season just to show loyalty to an extremely well paid manager who’s been given a chance he never earned.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
The only thing I hate in all this is the “give him to the end of the season” nonsense. We’re 9 games in, a change now, as Tuchel proved, could turn this from a nothing wasted season for the likes of Ronaldo and Cavani, to a successful one.

I can never agree with throwing away a season just to show loyalty to an extremely well paid manager who’s been given a chance he never earned.
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But what if it isn't to show loyalty but because you doubt the current options and want to make sure, the next steps are taken well prepared?

I mean, I am the last one not to be happy about Tuchel last year. He helped in arguments big time because here you had a manager showing that it is possible to implement something without needing 6 new players and months and years. But that, and that is the deciding factor in my eyes, isn't the question anymore: back then, people argued, that we shouldn't expect this and that because the manager didn't have enough time and backing. The proved answer was, some managers can make it work without time and backing.

The question now is different, it should be how likely is it, that a new manager comes in and gets us on track in a short time. It is possible. But is it likely? Is it so likely, that the potential gains (trophies, titles) would outweigh going for a manager now who might not be the first one on the list?
 
NZT-One said:
But what if it isn't to show loyalty but because you doubt the current options and want to make sure, the next steps are taken well prepared?
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Simple, fire Ole, bring new manager, with short term contract (6 months) or interim basis, and a mandate to turn things around, if said manager fails, then wait till contract expires and look at other candidates.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
The only thing I hate in all this is the “give him to the end of the season” nonsense. We’re 9 games in, a change now, as Tuchel proved, could turn this from a nothing wasted season for the likes of Ronaldo and Cavani, to a successful one.

I can never agree with throwing away a season just to show loyalty to an extremely well paid manager who’s been given a chance he never earned.
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Couldn’t agree more. I keep hearing on the foundations Ole is going to leave for the next manager once he leaves next summer totally ignoring the reality that Ronaldo/Cavani are not getting younger and are likely to depart at the end of the season. Then you have Lingard/Donny/Pogba/Martial who are all nailed on to feck off in the summer without getting a taste under a new manger. Just let someone competent in through that door right now and this can still be turned into a decent season giving manager time to assess these players for the upcoming summer.
 
OmarUnited4ever said:
Simple, fire Ole, bring new manager, with short term contract (6 months) or interim basis, and a mandate to turn things around, if said manager fails, then wait till contract expires and look at other candidates.
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Simple, look where the last manager with a 6 month contract got us :)

I understand the motivation, I'd still consider it too big of a risk. Not the sacking part, but the replacement part. Quality wise, I don't doubt Conte or Zidane, but are they a progressive choice? I don't know... Plus I'd be not just a little worried about Conte bringing his winger-less system with him. Could have serious effects on our brightest young players.
 
NZT-One said:
Simple, look where the last manager with a 6 month contract got us :)

I understand the motivation, I'd still consider it too big of a risk. Not the sacking part, but the replacement part. Quality wise, I don't doubt Conte or Zidane, but are they a progressive choice? I don't know... Plus I'd be not just a little worried about Conte bringing his winger-less system with him. Could have serious effects on our brightest young players.
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It's too risky to keep Ole, you are not wrong in being worried about the replacement, but at this moment, Ole remaining in place is very risky in itself and there might be mutiny from some players downing tools.
 
OmarUnited4ever said:
Simple, fire Ole, bring new manager, with short term contract (6 months) or interim basis, and a mandate to turn things around, if said manager fails, then wait till contract expires and look at other candidates.
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Yea just last time we had a interim manager, he got a perma job after 2-3 months and this place went full in ":drool::drool::drool:" "Ole at the wheel weeeee" "Quick someone post a picture of happy Fergie after PSG win, United DNA baby, Ole is the man" , best part this type of shit was spouted when performances already dropped off.
 
R'hllor said:
Yea just last time we had a interim manager, he got a perma job after 2-3 months and this place went full in ":drool::drool::drool:" "Ole at the wheel weeeee" "Quick someone post a picture of happy Fergie after PSG win, United DNA baby, Ole is the man" , best part this type of shit was spouted when performances already dropped off.
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so, should Ole stay now or not? we talking about what should be done next, why do you care about how Ole got the job?
 
Because the last time we had an interim we were pretty quick and happy to extend with him as soon as everybody felt happy. What does prevent a scenario like that to happen again? Thats the issue with such short-term-thinking driven by emotion. They can turn out problematic.
 
NZT-One said:
Because the last time we had an interim we were pretty quick and happy to extend with him as soon as everybody felt happy. What does prevent a scenario like that to happen again? Thats the issue with such short-term-thinking driven by emotion. They can turn out problematic.
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The interim idea wasn't bad, per se. What was bad is giving Ole a contract before the season even ended rather than evaluating the performance after. Basically screwed us royally. We wouldn't be in this mess if the board didn't have a happy trigger finger when it comes to extending and giving contracts at whim.
 
Sviken said:
The interim idea wasn't bad, per se. What was bad is giving Ole a contract before the season even ended rather than evaluating the performance after. Basically screwed us royally. We wouldn't be in this mess if the board didn't have a happy trigger finger when it comes to extending and giving contracts at whim.
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I agree with you. But does that change anything? We have the same people sitting there still, don't we? I have trouble trusting their decisions at all, yet so many on here even want them to decide as fast as possible. Which makes a difficult thing even more difficult. And for what? For not having to see a certain guy in dugout anymore. I don't get it. If Conte the is best possible candidate for the job, after a thorough background check and deep talks, fine, do it. If he isn't lets not get talked into a reality where only he and Zidane are existing. Which interim do people have in mind? I think, the most likely one to take over is somebody from the current coaching team, if that happens what have we gained?
 
I'm sure he has changed his opinion. There isn't a single argument for keeping Ole beyond the international break
 
NZT-One said:
Because the last time we had an interim we were pretty quick and happy to extend with him as soon as everybody felt happy. What does prevent a scenario like that to happen again? Thats the issue with such short-term-thinking driven by emotion. They can turn out problematic.
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A rational managerial appointment. My expectations are so low given how poor Ole's football has been, all I want is a manager who has built a single attacking team in a big 5-6 European league. That's literally it.

You hire someone, you give them the year (unless it's a disaster) and you can very easily see if they have been able to coach their style into the team. If not, goodbye and go again, if they have done well you back them with a select couple of good players and repeat. Within 2-3 years you'll know if they'll be able to challenge. It really is that simple.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
A rational managerial appointment. My expectations are so low given how poor Ole's football has been, all I want is a manager who has built a single attacking team in a big 5-6 European league. That's literally it.

You hire someone, you give them the year (unless it's a disaster) and you can very easily see if they have been able to coach their style into the team. If not, goodbye and go again, if they have done well you back them with a select couple of good players and repeat. Within 2-3 years you'll know if they'll be able to challenge. It really is that simple.
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A rational appointment is a prerequisite, isn't it? Surely, nobody won't want that.

I have some trouble seeing the simplicity there to be honest. I mean, of course sounds good if it works out with the first candidate, if not, things start to get more difficult. Different candidates might play different player types, different formations. You simply cannot afford a) the manager to take these decisions AND b) exchange managers on a constant basis. As long as some sort of continuity is provided by the structure (something we hope but do not know regarding Fletcher and Murtough) it looks different. A bit at least because a certain idea how you want to play reduces the number of potential candidates.

I get the frustration. I really do but we are not allowed to take a shortcut this time. We have to go the hard way for once because we never did after Moyes, it was always the obvious and easy choice.
If the top 1 or 2 of our shortlist* is available, alright strike as fast as it gets. But if none of those two is available, there is no point in sidestepping just for the (realistically only small) chance of completely changing the course of the season.

*Shortlist done by excessively thorough background checks and alignments in terms of visions and goals
 
NZT-One said:
A rational appointment is a prerequisite, isn't it? Surely, nobody won't want that.

I have some trouble seeing the simplicity there to be honest. I mean, of course sounds good if it works out with the first candidate, if not, things start to get more difficult. Different candidates might play different player types, different formations. You simply cannot afford a) the manager to take these decisions AND b) exchange managers on a constant basis. As long as some sort of continuity is provided by the structure (something we hope but do not know regarding Fletcher and Murtough) it looks different. A bit at least because a certain idea how you want to play reduces the number of potential candidates.

I get the frustration. I really do but we are not allowed to take a shortcut this time. We have to go the hard way for once because we never did after Moyes, it was always the obvious and easy choice.
If the top 1 or 2 of our shortlist* is available, alright strike as fast as it gets. But if none of those two is available, there is no point in sidestepping just for the (realistically only small) chance of completely changing the course of the season.

*Shortlist done by excessively thorough background checks and alignments in terms of visions and goals
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No, honestly it really is that simple as long as you don’t just throw darts blindfolded as we’ve done with the mish mash of coaching styles we’ve enjoyed.

Let’s say you want organised press and direct football. You stick to that and simply find the best available candidates and hope your 1st pick becomes available. You can’t wait around for coaches who might not even be good when they arrive.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
No, honestly it really is that simple as long as you don’t just throw darts blindfolded as we’ve done with the mish mash of coaching styles we’ve enjoyed.

Let’s say you want organised press and direct football. You stick to that and simply find the best available candidates and hope your 1st pick becomes available. You can’t wait around for coaches who might not even be good when they arrive.
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There are many ways to press and there are multiple ways to play direct football. Actually, if anything, Ole plays a pretty direct form of football with his insistence to play long into the strikers as soon as possible in the buildup.

Pressing wise you can have a high-press, mid-press, lower press, you have a multitude of formations teams get into while pressing (not necessarily the formation they are in when in possession). And each of those different formations and approaches have slight differences in terms of best suited player profiles.

So no, it isn't just pick somebody who plays attacking, let him have a go and when it turns bad, try the next guy. I agree, we should try to establish an infrastructure, that enables us to change manager without losing continuity, but right now, there aren't any indicators that we are there yet.

Again, it comes all down to who is the best possible candidate in terms of ability and alignment regarding squad vision and short-, mid- and longterm goals. If the best possible candidate is available, try to bring him in. If he isn't, check how big the differences between #1 and #2 are and if it might be more benefitial to wait for #1. It certainly isn't a good idea to bring in #4-6 only to "get rid".
 
NZT-One said:
There are many ways to press and there are multiple ways to play direct football. Actually, if anything, Ole plays a pretty direct form of football with his insistence to play long into the strikers as soon as possible in the buildup.

Pressing wise you can have a high-press, mid-press, lower press, you have a multitude of formations teams get into while pressing (not necessarily the formation they are in when in possession). And each of those different formations and approaches have slight differences in terms of best suited player profiles.

So no, it isn't just pick somebody who plays attacking, let him have a go and when it turns bad, try the next guy. I agree, we should try to establish an infrastructure, that enables us to change manager without losing continuity, but right now, there aren't any indicators that we are there yet.

Again, it comes all down to who is the best possible candidate in terms of ability and alignment regarding squad vision and short-, mid- and longterm goals. If the best possible candidate is available, try to bring him in. If he isn't, check how big the differences between #1 and #2 are and if it might be more benefitial to wait for #1. It certainly isn't a good idea to bring in #4-6 only to "get rid".
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What if you know that 4-6 is an upgrade that you currently emlpy though? Why not just take the upgrade now and improve the club and then make the move for 1 or 2 when they become better? Basically if you know you have the 10th best choice right now why wouldn't you go for the 6th best option?

That's where I'm at with ole. There's plenty of improvements on him even if they aren't the first or second choice. It's like city with Pelligrini, they knew they wanted Pep eventually but instead of sticking with a known commodity in Mancini who won stuff they saw someone who wasn't their first choice but still someone they saw as an upgrade.
 
I agree with Paul. Ole needs time to dig a proper hole for the next manager to crawl out of. It's just the way we do things at this club.
 
NZT-One said:
There are many ways to press and there are multiple ways to play direct football. Actually, if anything, Ole plays a pretty direct form of football with his insistence to play long into the strikers as soon as possible in the buildup.

Pressing wise you can have a high-press, mid-press, lower press, you have a multitude of formations teams get into while pressing (not necessarily the formation they are in when in possession). And each of those different formations and approaches have slight differences in terms of best suited player profiles.

So no, it isn't just pick somebody who plays attacking, let him have a go and when it turns bad, try the next guy. I agree, we should try to establish an infrastructure, that enables us to change manager without losing continuity, but right now, there aren't any indicators that we are there yet.

Again, it comes all down to who is the best possible candidate in terms of ability and alignment regarding squad vision and short-, mid- and longterm goals. If the best possible candidate is available, try to bring him in. If he isn't, check how big the differences between #1 and #2 are and if it might be more benefitial to wait for #1. It certainly isn't a good idea to bring in #4-6 only to "get rid".
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This is my point and why it is so easy. If there was only one way to press it would be harder to find the right coach but every coach is different, that is a good thing, however you can point to at least 5 managers in the PL alone who have built a solid pressing team. Therefore, if you said I want an attacking and direct coach AND someone who can coach a press you have a good sized group of candidates to choose from and don't put all your eggs in one basket. This is how all businesses operate, there'll always be a few preferred candidates but you don't just wait and hope, you are proactive and you never know if your top pick is better than your 4th or 5th pick.

Put it this way, if football was about what you say and not what you do, Ole would be doing really well because after 3 years we'd be pressing like an elite team and being direct (given those are complementary facets of the game).
 
Formations apart i think Ole needs to be more ruthless with the players who do not perform, drop them and play someone else keep picking Pogba is just insane ,Maguire is having a mare make at statement and manage them with the axe, get Jones back in or sell him, give DVB more games he's got plenty of options but does nowt.
 
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