Paul Pogba

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Drainy said:
actually, he didn't start right away. He was dropped from the playing squad within the first month due to his shoddy attitude and had to work his way into the team from the bench after he was disciplined.

If his attitude was so poor starting at a new club, you can only imagine what a half arsed showing he gave for us in training that final year- and it was showing in his performances for the reserves, nice touches notwithstanding
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:nono: He wasn't dropped because of his shoddy attitude but because he was late for a single training. And he was dropped for a single match. Please stop this bullshit bad attitude. His attitude is the same as the likes of Ronaldo, he clearly believes in himself but also delivers.

Of course he didn't start right away, because they had Pirlo, Vidal and Marchisio. In the first year he was more a rotation option but considering that there are 4 people for three positions, he had plenty of games.
 
Drainy said:
actually, he didn't start right away. He was dropped from the playing squad within the first month due to his shoddy attitude and had to work his way into the team from the bench after he was disciplined.

If his attitude was so poor starting at a new club, you can only imagine what a half arsed showing he gave for us in training that final year- and it was showing in his performances for the reserves, nice touches notwithstanding
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By start right away I don't mean literally start the first game of the season, by this time last season he was already in the rotation and impressing and he has gone from strength to strength. He said he wanted to leave to play more football, he believed he was good enough and he has been justified. I think he was dropped for one game for missing training.

I don't watch reserve football so I can't comment on that but your not the only one to say it, obviously he thought he was to good for that level and so instead of working hard he half-arsed it, that is not commendable no matter how good he is. We all know these teams get in contact with these payers before January so who knows how long he had it in his mind to leave. Getting an Italian agent suggests to me he was alwaysheading to the continent. He left because he believed he was good enough to be playing and he has been proven right.

Personally I would rather this thread just became about commenting about him as a player rather than going over why he left. Pogba whatever happened here is immense he will be one of the best midfielders in the world soon and he is only 20, quality player, he has it all.
 
The problem was Pogba, not Sir Alex like people seem to be suggesting. Sir Alex played the hand he was dealt, unfortunately we were on to a loser with this guy.
 
Revan said:
You can't deliver when you don't get a chance to do so.
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He got more opportunities than it took Januzaj to step up. You seem to think he's like Ronaldo and it justifies his attitude, he was like a flat fart in the breeze compared to the impact Ronaldo made in his debut.

He was mediocre and half arsed for the reserves, and timid for the first team at 18. It's unfortunate, but it just wasn't meant to be for us and him.
 
People keep saying Pogba didn't deliver have miss one important thing - almost none of our midfielders really delivered that season as well.
 
Drainy said:
He got more opportunities than it took Januzaj to step up. You seem to think he's like Ronaldo and it justifies his attitude, he was like a flat fart in the breeze compared to the impact Ronaldo made in his debut.

He was mediocre and half arsed for the reserves, and timid for the first team at 18. It's unfortunate, but it just wasn't meant to be for us and him.
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Surely you can recognise the difference between a player like Ronaldo making his debut, and one like Pogba? Anyway, any semblance of 'skill' would only have allowed the bitter among us to denigrate his perceived arrogance and bad attitude further.

Timid my arse. He looked very good for an 18 year old central midfielder in the first team. What did you expect? Rabona's with a touch of the scorpion kick?
 
Drainy said:
He got more opportunities than it took Januzaj to step up. You seem to think he's like Ronaldo and it justifies his attitude, he was like a flat fart in the breeze compared to the impact Ronaldo made in his debut.

He was mediocre and half arsed for the reserves, and timid for the first team at 18. It's unfortunate, but it just wasn't meant to be for us and him.
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Januzaj got more chances in the first two monthes than Pogba did during the course of the entire season.

The game he played badly, was the game when he was forced to play as a center-back, of course an 18 year old midfielder in one of his first games, won't shine in a position he has never played before. Somehow though, some people here blaimed him for our defeat in CC despite he wasn't near the worst player in the pitch. He played excellently against Stoke but then was sent to the bench again.

He may have felt that he was above the reserves level (and rightly so, he definitely was) and probably didn't bother that much. On the other side, getting a game or two, then then next two weeks spending in bench and then returning to the team isn't that easy.

In the end, he didn't leave us for a shitty team cause he couldn't compete here. He thought that he wasn't treated well and left for a team that is as good as us and in fact has a much better midfield.
 
Drainy said:
He got more opportunities than it took Januzaj to step up. You seem to think he's like Ronaldo and it justifies his attitude, he was like a flat fart in the breeze compared to the impact Ronaldo made in his debut.

He was mediocre and half arsed for the reserves, and timid for the first team at 18. It's unfortunate, but it just wasn't meant to be for us and him.
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Wreck of a post.
 
A young winger has much more room for error than a young central midfielder. It's a position of expression. Central midfielder is one of getting stuck in and passing to your team mate. Both Januzaj and Pogba showed promise in different ways in their performances. With the likes of Adnan and Ronaldo, it's slightly more obvious.
 
Drainy said:
actually, he didn't start right away. He was dropped from the playing squad within the first month due to his shoddy attitude and had to work his way into the team from the bench after he was disciplined.

If his attitude was so poor starting at a new club, you can only imagine what a half arsed showing he gave for us in training that final year- and it was showing in his performances for the reserves, nice touches notwithstanding
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Don't make things up, he was on the bench because they were waiting for the perfect opportunity to get him some playing time not because of his attitude.

The only time he was disciplined was in Novemeber when he was disciplined for coming late twice and started the very next match after the suspension.
 
I love the idea of giving players first team shots based entirely around their talent level and contractual situations. It sounds like such a great way to run a football club that prides itself on youth development. Real way to instil discipline, work ethic and a team oriented mentality in your youth prospects.

Januzaj gets more chances because he's doing more with the chances he's getting, for what it's worth. Pogba might have been a talent on the ball, but he was lazy tracking back and drifted though games- most people who actually watched him play consistently at the time would be able to identify that. Getting Scholes back was a stroke of genius that almost paid off for us, playing Pogba in his place would have made us uncompetitive with City, shown our young players that hard work doesn't matter as long as you hold the club over a barrel and he probably still would have buggered off.
 
Drainy said:
didn't deliver for us though did he.. average performances for both the reserves and first team when he was given his chances..
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You thought he was average in his cameo vs Stoke? He played all of 200mins for the club when he was here spread over 7 games. Didn't start a single match at any level. What did you expect?

In the reserves he played well, and had some quiet games mixed in. Let's also not forget that he was also played out of position in some reserve team games. He also was with the first team a lot at the time and missed some games due to that iirc. Petrucci played better than him there and he didn't get game time either which should tell you how much it should be used as a barometer to see whether a young un is ready.
 
RooneyLegend said:
Don't make things up, he was on the bench because they were waiting for the perfect opportunity to get him some playing time not because of his attitude.

The only time he was disciplined was in Novemeber when he was disciplined for coming late twice and started the very next match after the suspension.
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Doesn't change the point of what I was saying. He didn't start for them as soon as he moved he was used mostly from the bench which is where he would have been if he'd actually bothered working while at United, and turning up late- showing ill-discipline that soon into his career there- doesn't speak well of him as an adult, you can only imagine what he tried to get away with when we had no leverage over him.
 
RooneyLegend said:
In the reserves he played well, and had some quiet games mixed in. Let's also not forget that he was also played out of position in some reserve team games. He also was with the first team a lot at the time and missed some games due to that iirc. Petrucci played better than him there and he didn't get game time either which should tell you how much it should be used as a barometer to see whether a young un is ready.
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Consistency is key for young players wanting to get promoted to United's first team. Showing flashes of brilliance might be exciting for us spectators but it doesn't count for much if their next 2 games are average, and he was often average.
 
Drainy said:
I love the idea of giving players first team shots based entirely around their talent level and contractual situations. It sounds like such a great way to run a football club that prides itself on youth development. Real way to instil discipline, work ethic and a team oriented mentality in your youth prospects.

Januzaj gets more chances because he's doing more with the chances he's getting, for what it's worth. Pogba might have been a talent on the ball, but he was lazy tracking back and drifted though games- most people who actually watched him play consistently at the time would be able to identify that. Getting Scholes back was a stroke of genius that almost paid off for us, playing Pogba in his place would have made us uncompetitive with City, shown our young players that hard work doesn't matter as long as you hold the club over a barrel and he probably still would have buggered off.
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That's total bollocks. You can't account for any of that.

And as for your first paragraph, what exactly is the alternative in a greed-riddled, 2013 state of affairs? If a club is prepared to snatch the best young talent from around Europe, then it must be prepared for the demands that same young talent will make as they progress. Yes, a player's talent level and contractual situation matters a great deal. And had Januzaj still been sat on the bench, while Giggs was starting games out wide for us, then rest assured, he may well have left next Summer, too. It turns out that he's been given chances, he's taken those chances because he himself is talented, and he's reportedly been offered a rather handsome wage to match. There are no prizes for morality here.
 
Comsmit said:
Wreck of a post.
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Constructive. Well done.

His attitude was not what you'd expect of a first teamer at United, his performances were not consistently at the level of a first teamer at United and he expected to be given game time for our first team because he was talented and had us by the balls with his contract situation. Sir Alex played his hand right.
 
Kag said:
That's total bollocks. You can't account for any of that.
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Football is a game of opinions and 'bollocks' like that, if you can't apply what you saw from a player and extrapolate to theoretical situations half of the debate is dead.

I watched the player in pretty much every televised game from he was 15/16 until he left the club, he was a guarantee to make it if he applied himself but it never clicked with him and he chose to move on. It happens.
 
Drainy said:
Constructive. Well done.

His attitude was not what you'd expect of a first teamer at United, his performances were not consistently at the level of a first teamer at United and he expected to be given game time for our first team because he was talented and had us by the balls with his contract situation. Sir Alex played his hand right.
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His attitude is perfect. An arrogant player but everybody loves arrogant players when they play great on the pitch.
 
In his first 18 games, he started 5 times, was subbed on 5 times, sat on the bench 6 times, missed one game through suspension and one where he wasn't included at all. From games 19 to 35 he started every one, before being suspended for the final 3 games of the season. It took him half a season to impress Conte and nail down a starting position.

That's hardly thrown in at the deep end is it?
 
Christ alive, will this debate ever end?

Why can't he be discussed for the player he is now without it resulting in dozens of posts arguing the toss about him leaving us and whose fault it was?

The time to move on has long since passed.
 
Joemo said:
In his first 18 games, he started 5 times, was subbed on 5 times, sat on the bench 6 times, missed one game through suspension and one where he wasn't included at all. From games 19 to 35 he started every one, before being suspended for the final 3 games of the season. It took him half a season to impress Conte and nail down a starting position.

That's hardly thrown in at the deep end is it?
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No it isn't, he most likely felt he would not have got that chance here. By this time last season he was already impressing in his cameos ALSO Juve have Pirlo, Vidal and Marchisio a difficult midfield to get into. Another thing those players could protect him on the pitch better than those in our midfield. I think Juve was just the right place for him.
 
Of all the biggest regrets SAF must have about his career...selling Stam, not signing Van Der Sar earlier, failing to lure Gascoigne, rejecting the opportunity to sign Zidane, losing those two CL finals against Barca...I'm sure his biggest regret of all is not picking Pogba against Blackburn. He must toss and turn at night, thinking to himself "If only....it would all have been so different"
 
Rowem said:
Of all the biggest regrets SAF must have about his career...selling Stam, not signing Van Der Sar earlier, failing to lure Gascoigne, rejecting the opportunity to sign Zidane, losing those two CL finals against Barca...I'm sure his biggest regret of all is not picking Pogba against Blackburn. He must toss and turn at night, thinking to himself "If only....it would all have been so different"
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:lol:

Like Mr Mujac pointed out, it's Anderson who should have been more annoyed by being left out. Probably just comfort ate instead.
 
Drainy said:
Football is a game of opinions and 'bollocks' like that, if you can't apply what you saw from a player and extrapolate to theoretical situations half of the debate is dead.

I watched the player in pretty much every televised game from he was 15/16 until he left the club, he was a guarantee to make it if he applied himself but it never clicked with him and he chose to move on. It happens.
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Don't get arty-farty. You have original opinions, you're exaggerating these opinions as if they're stone cold fact, and attempting to completely undermine an attitude of a person you know absolutely naff all about. It's hard to take you seriously.

The idea that a player that plays week in, week out for Juventus and now the French international team hasn't, doesn't or didn't - "apply himself," was "often average," didn't have "an attitude expected of a first teamer at United," didn't "actually bother working at United," - throughout his early professional career is one of hyperbole.

He wasn't "timid" in his first team appearances at United. Nor was he treated like the first team member of the squad Sir Alex suggested he was in the previous Summer. The reality from his point of view is that he didn't get the games he wanted. This was because Sir Alex wanted to play Park and Rafael in central midfield ahead of him, and bring back Paul Scholes from his retirement. It happened. He wanted to leave for more game time. He left. His decision is justified. It isn't a big deal, and it doesn't allow for complete no-marks to steam onto an anonymous internet forum, performing psycho-analysis on somebody they know next to nothing about.

"It happens." I know that. I don't care at all. I just find it strange that a contingent of supporters who claim not to give a feck are persistent in tearing into a player because his form may have dipped in the reserves and he decided to leave the club.
 
Drainy said:
Doesn't change the point of what I was saying. He didn't start for them as soon as he moved he was used mostly from the bench which is where he would have been if he'd actually bothered working while at United, and turning up late- showing ill-discipline that soon into his career there- doesn't speak well of him as an adult, you can only imagine what he tried to get away with when we had no leverage over him.
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Nah, that's where he thought he should've been at United instead he was playing in the reserves playing very little first team minutes. No one has ever complained about his attitude in training and I have no idea where you got that from. If he was such a lazy arse then he wouldn't have even touched the pitch for us in that season. Conte is a task master and he's never complained about his attitude in training.

At juve from the moment he got there he got integrated into the first team. Went on the pre season tour(didn't happen here). Started his first game for them in the league at the first opportunity( 3rd or 4th juve game) and as the season went on the amount of game time he received increased substantially to the point that by the second part of the season he was basically a first team player.

The truth is SAF thought he wasn't ready, when he actually was. This lead to him being impatient and leaving. He wanted first team ball, we weren't giving it to him. Its really that simple. All the other stuff is a waste of time. SAF said he'd leave if he wasn't played and he left cause of that.

Sir alex actually thought he'd go down the Welbeck route with his development. Put him into first team training for the season, a few mins here and there, and then ship him out on loan. That's a route he clearly wasn't interested in and judging by his progress since leaving its easy to see why.
Kag said:
Don't get arty-farty. You have original opinions, you're exaggerating these opinions as if they're stone cold fact, and attempting to completely undermine an attitude of a person you know absolutely naff all about. It's hard to take you seriously.

The idea that a player that plays week in, week out for Juventus and now the French international team hasn't, doesn't or didn't - "apply himself," was "often average," didn't have "an attitude expected of a first teamer at United," didn't "actually bother working at United," - throughout his early professional career is one of hyperbole.

He wasn't "timid" in his first team appearances at United. Nor was he treated like the first team member of the squad Sir Alex suggested he was in the previous Summer. The reality from his point of view is that he didn't get the games he wanted. This was because Sir Alex wanted to play Park and Rafael in central midfield ahead of him, and bring back Paul Scholes from his retirement. It happened. He wanted to leave for more game time. He left. His decision is justified. It isn't a big deal, and it doesn't allow for complete no-marks to steam onto an anonymous internet forum, performing psycho-analysis on somebody they know next to nothing about.

"It happens." I know that. I don't care at all. I just find it strange that a contingent of supporters who claim not to give a feck are persistent in tearing into a player because his form may have dipped in the reserves and he decided to leave the club.
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Kag said:
This was because Sir Alex wanted to play Park and Rafael in central midfield ahead of him
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Pogba played in central midfield for United far more than Park or Rafael.

The obsession with the Blackburn game is hilarious.

Well, rather, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so fecking pathetic.
 
Rowem said:
Pogba played in central midfield for United far more than Park or Rafael.

The obsession with the Blackburn game is hilarious.

Well, rather, it would be hilarious if it wasn't so fecking pathetic.
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I referred to this game because he himself referred to it as the game that was a major factor in his leaving of the club. Hence I very obviously preceeded that quotation by saying "the reality from his point of view."
 
Rowem said:
Of all the biggest regrets SAF must have about his career...selling Stam, not signing Van Der Sar earlier, failing to lure Gascoigne, rejecting the opportunity to sign Zidane, losing those two CL finals against Barca...I'm sure his biggest regret of all is not picking Pogba against Blackburn. He must toss and turn at night, thinking to himself "If only....it would all have been so different"
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His list of regrets seem to be endless it seems, but yeah, I agree with your post, because at the end of the day, Sir Alex has lost out on bigger fish than Pogba, and what did it really change? For me, it changed nothing. As for this argument about Januzaj, he must have done something to actually merit a place in the first team. I can remember, not having seen him play whatsoever, and to be honest, coming on against Sunderland in a crunch match that we clearly had to win, and I was thinking, ooops, Luke Chadwick all over again. In the end, his presence on the pitch that very evening changed the outcome of the match, and not because of the goals either. His will to win, his energy and his motivation help spur on the team, he was the kick up the arse that the other more experienced players needed and he provided it. People go on about how Pogba only had 20 minutes here, 20 minutes there, or other matches where he may have played 30 minutes or so, well, so what, it is what you do with the time that you have that counts the most. Again, with Januzaj coming on against Palace, he had only 32 minutes to try and impress the manager and he did just that, clearly doing more in 10 minutes than Young managed in 68 minutes. This was rewarded with a first debut against Sunderland and again, he provided something that I thought we'd never see for a long time and it inspired the others too.

So, all in all, whatever time Pogba had in the matches he played, destiny was in his hands, he had the chance to try and bring the best of himself and try and get a first-team place, but he chose not to it seems. However, if you have the ability and the motivation, chances are that a report will go back to Sir Alex and they will talk about the future, and the fact that Sir Alex let him go speaks volumes.
 
Jesus. Can we not have a decent conversation about Pogba without mentioning Blackburn, Rafael or Park? Stop bringing that up every time he has a half decent game
 
Proud_Lyon said:
So, all in all, whatever time Pogba had in the matches he played, destiny was in his hands, he had the chance to try and bring the best of himself and try and get a first-team place, but he chose not to it seems. However, if you have the ability and the motivation, chances are that a report will go back to Sir Alex and they will talk about the future, and the fact that Sir Alex let him go speaks volumes.
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Fact? We didn't let him go, he left us.

“We wanted to sell Morrison, let's be clear about that, for obvious reasons," Ferguson told reporters.

"But we want Pogba to stay because we think he's going to be a fantastic Manchester United player and hopefully that's the case."
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Kag said:
I referred to this game because he himself referred to it as the game that was a major factor in his leaving of the club. Hence I very obviously preceeded that quotation by saying "the reality from his point of view."
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I saw that Pogba quote and I'm very dubious about it. Looked like a PR exercise. He's not going to come out and say that Juve's offer of 25k a week was too good to turn down.

And even if it's true, it says more about Pogba than it does about SAF's decision to play him or not. I don't doubt that his agent might have used the game to steer Pogba towards a more lucrative move. But when it comes down to it the majority of people blow it out of all proportion.
 
akash02 said:
Jesus. Can we not have a decent conversation about Pogba without mentioning Blackburn, Rafael or Park? Stop bringing that up every time he has a half decent game
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No, you don't understand.

If SAF had picked Pogba against Blackburn, then Pogba would still be here now. He'd be wearing the number 7 shirt. We wouldn't have signed Fellaini. We probably would have won the Champions League last season. And it's ALL down to the Blackburn game. All of it.
 
Rowem said:
No, you don't understand.

If SAF had picked Pogba against Blackburn, then Pogba would still be here now. He'd be wearing the number 7 shirt. We wouldn't have signed Fellaini. We probably would have won the Champions League last season. And it's ALL down to the Blackburn game. All of it.
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:lol:

Sums up the reactions in this thread. We've won a league title since he left ffs. If people want to have a moan go to the Ronaldo thread. Now there's a player SAF did let leave
 
Rowem said:
I saw that Pogba quote and I'm very dubious about it. Looked like a PR exercise. He's not going to come out and say that Juve's offer of 25k a week was too good to turn down.

And even if it's true, it says more about Pogba than it does about SAF's decision to play him or not. I don't doubt that his agent might have used the game to steer Pogba towards a more lucrative move. But when it comes down to it the majority of people blow it out of all proportion.
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See, this what I don't get. All of the cynicism and character-questioning tends to come from those that look to castigate Pogba as a person. Even yourself, you're already looking to spin his own quote into a "Pogba left for the cash" narrative, even though all on-field evidence goes to show that the player has made a move that has been beneficial in all kinds of ways. And yes, I include money in that, too. It is, of course, an important part in a footballer's decision.

It's not outrageous to believe that the lack of chances during a period of heavy injuries and the return of Paul Scholes was the reason he left the club. I don't blame him for it. I'm not going to have a go at Sir Alex over it. I'm not really bothered by it. What baffles me is the whole "he didn't apply himself/bad attitude/was often average" narrative that gets spun every time he has a good game.
 
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