Unplayable and possibly one of the 3 best midfielders in the league?
Or possibly benched to give Fellaini minutes.
Paul Pogba
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Or possibly benched to give Fellaini minutes.
that game cost us the title
and was one of the worst games of football i watched.
and was one of the worst games of football i watched.
The whole Pogba thing was the biggest cock up Fergie's made in recent years. If not ever. Its just mental when you actually think about it.
As for that Blackburn match, Park and Rafael? Fffs
He was 18. He didn't have a Premier League appearance to his name, he'd played a few minutes in the Carling Cup but that was it.
We'd have been asking him to come in and play alongside Ji Sung Park in central midfield in a tough away fixture in the EPL with the "experienced" centre back partnership of Carrick and Jones behind him and no Rooney to drop and help out either.
Fergie had been bringing though young players for years and he knows that the most important thing is to protect them. Throwing a player into a mix like that no matter how head strong they are is just unnecessary. I think people really need to gain a bit of perspective over that decision. At that point Park and Rafael had over 300 games worth of experience for United.
The Pogba thing is getting so old. We've heard from quite a few sources that he wasn't applying himself at Reserve level and if that's true he didn't deserve a call-up. People (and especially Fergie) are always talking about United players having the right attitude. Compare Pogba's performances and attitude for the Reserves that year to Januzaj who's had a taste of the first team this season but still put in 100% when playing for the Under-21s midweek after the West Brom game.
I am guessing source for that is some shit site, that quote sounds like typical United fan on this thread.
Ah right fair, it's probably one of those things I've heard so much that it's accepted as fact. Although I did watch him at Reserve level and it did seem that wasn't applying himself, despite pulling off the odd bit of incredible skill.
Why would it have been anymore than that? We poached him and played him in the academy. So what?
Why is he still crying like an estranged ex girlfriend? Got his transfer and the $$$, now move on ffs.
Because people still blame the agent and money when its clear he should have been given more chances.
We had a shit midfield and a shit hot young talent
We had a shit midfield and a shit hot young talent
Load of bollocks. We didn't lose the title in January.
Makes sense, we all make mistakes and we obviously did with Pogba, he's the type of player we're in search for and will have to spend over 30m to get.
I don't think I'm ever gonna be convinced that not playing Pogba in that Blackburn made sense. This is among the very very few mistakes (in comparison to his successes) SAF has made at the club.
In Park's case, quite a few considering he played in a 3 man midfield on a lot of big European nights. But it's beside the point. The point is that he chose two footballers who will run all day, tackle all day and cover an already shocking defence while already being up to the pace and physicality of the League. He chose to go with that over dropping in an 18 year old who hasn't even played a minute of Premier League football and was already known to be a bit lazy in his defensive work and positional play when we don't have the ball at reserve level. Was he really going to put him in because he's "more of a midfielder" than the other two? Do you think if he did play, he would have been able to play some sort of possession game alongside Park?
He made the correct footballing decision that day for the correct tactical reasons, it just didn't pay off.
I'd wager the Everton game was the one that win's that one
Or the loss to Wigan/City.
It would have been justified if we'd got a result, we lost to the worst side in the league as an outcome as well as probably lost one of the most talented players we had in the academy though so whichever way you put it it was a wrong decision. I cannot see how you can say it was a correct decision when we gave the worst performance in the whole season and lost to fecking Blackburn, correct decision my Lord.
Lost the title in December!
Not to mention we went 8 points ahead in April.
I'm talking in principle and in theory. I'm sure if presented with the same scenario again, Fergie would make the same choice.
Weigh it up for yourself:
1. You have an 18 year old and a midfielder at centre back.
2. You're missing your best player who usually puts a shift in to help the midfield.
3. Up front you have a young poacher with zero defensive contribution and a striker with a top speed of 6mph who wouldn't break a sweat if a starving Lion was chasing him.
4. You are being forced to play Park Ji Sung in a midfield, do you play him alongside:
A. A right back who is energetic, quick, good in the tackle, defensively aware and has nearly 100 appearances for the club including games against all of the top 4 as well as some of the best teams in Europe.
or B. An 18 year old midfielder who has yet to start a game for United let alone in the Premier League and has been getting criticized for not putting in enough work defensively, a player with a languid style who isn't particularly quick or at the time, positionally savvy.
With Park as the choice's partner we were never going to be winning that game for possession no matter who the partner was. It made sense to have someone with defensive sensibilities otherwise they'd have been cutting right through us and that's the last thing you'd want with Carrick and Jones at the back rather than Vidic and Ferdinand.
Rafael due to experience
Going by that logic you should never ever play your young players because you might have a more experienced option. Was it equally wrong to play Januzaj last weekend because we had experienced season pros like Young and Valencia on the sidelines?
Pogba was a midfielder, we needed a midfielder, play a fecking midfielder not a right back with poor positional sense. End of story. Thing about Ferguson of the past was that he'd never been afraid to play a youngster just because he might put in a defender or a winger in midfield, he'd play a young player and give him a chance. That day he opted not to and it has cost us twice.
Pogba was a midfielder, we needed a midfielder, play a fecking midfielder not a right back with poor positional sense. End of story. Thing about Ferguson of the past was that he'd never been afraid to play a youngster just because he might put in a defender or a winger in midfield, he'd play a young player and give him a chance. That day he opted not to and it has cost us twice.
Indeed. I was livid to see Januzaj instead of Young against Sunderland, I mean how can you possibly neglect the sort of experience Ashley Young has?
Pogba had six months left on his contract. When you have got a special talent on your hands, then you have to make some exceptions for that special talent, because if you don't then someone else will, and we have learned this the hard way. Not selecting him was a mistake, further backed by the result and us losing him.
No, it was a correct decision. fecker has learned his lesson alright and we are the great Manchester United, we don't surrender to our players demands. We didn't feck up our wage structure either and other youth players aren't asking for a raise. It was a stupendous decision to let him go.
I agree. Sure, he didn't look as impressive and ready prior to that as Januzaj has in his first few sub appearances, and in preseason, but I think it was still a poor decision to play the players we did in his place. The time has long gone where these super talents are just going to watch everyone and anyone start ahead of them. They want some faith from the management in their talent otherwise they'll be off quickly. It's just a fact we have to get used to and work around.
As ever these things are easy to call in hindsight, SAF made a thousand decisions like that over the years and as often as not they paid off, I remember Arsenal in the cup for example, when the Da Silvas were played out of position, we played really well and won, vindicating the decision. On another day we might have beaten Blackburn with that team and this conversation wouldnt be happening. Or we couldve played with Pogba and lost anyway.
Having said all that, I agree with Sarni. We were in the position of needing to gamble on way or the other, I would have preferred to gamble on someone playing in his own position - especially someone as highly regarded as Pogba was.
Having said all that, I agree with Sarni. We were in the position of needing to gamble on way or the other, I would have preferred to gamble on someone playing in his own position - especially someone as highly regarded as Pogba was.
Yup, I certainly understand why SAF made that decision, I think most of us do. But even with the benefit of hindsight many refuse to acknowledge that it was not a good decision.
I'd say that a team that has a solid back four, central midfield and amazing attack is a good scenario to nurture an attacking talent who had a preseason with, appearing in many games as well as already playing twice in the league before his start. Totally different scenarios, Januzaj had the foundation there for him, that's how it should be.
We shouldn't pick players we don't think are ready just because they think they are and they might get moody and piss off to another club.
The thing is, it could have been avoided. Gibson, Evans and Rooney were left out of the squad for going for a meal after a game. Surely a fine and a telling off would have been sufficient considering our injury problems at the time, can't help but feel they wouldn't have been drppped had we been playing Pool or City.
We seriously underrated both Blackburn and Pogba that day imo.
He was playing on a pretty much regular basis for Juventus 7 months later. He's a major talent and we lost him because of that attitude you're talking about. You probably wish we hadn't play Ronaldo back in his teenage years because he was nowhere near ready and wouldn't have minded if he left for another club during these years?
He actually put in good cameos against Stoke and West Brom a couple months later, much better than Rafael and Park were at any point in the Blackburn game.
Let's put it into perspective. He came on to replace Scholes alongside Carrick when we were 2-0 up already against West Brom. Against Stoke we were 2-0 up again and he played in an AM role ahead of Scholes and Carrick.
Again, that is how you bring youngsters through. I can't believe people are actually question Fergusons decision making on how to bring young players into the first team. That Blackburn game just wasn't right for an 18 year old centre mid in any way, shape or form and hindsight is a beautiful thing.
He wasn't performing in the reserves to stake his claim for the first team, he had only had a few cameo's previous to the Blackburn game and our defence was in a dire shape and not really in any position to give an unproven 18 year old his full league debut. That's the long and short of it.
Funnily enough, I was just watching highlights of Giggs' debut vs Everton and Fergie said "It was inevitable. I knew by his performaces in the youth team and reserve team he was putting himself in the team."
Giggs made his debut in an injury hit United, being rewarded for good performances in the reserve games after being in the senior team squad the week before.
Giggs made his debut in an injury hit United, being rewarded for good performances in the reserve games after being in the senior team squad the week before.
There were some posters convinced playing Januzaj over Young and Valencia earlier in the season would have been a truly horrifying decision. Not enough experience, too young, not good enough defensively etc. Predictably Young and Valencia did feck all and we created nothing. Now it won't be long before Januzaj is our best winger.
And the same would have been the case with Pogba. Yes, his attitude with the reserves wasn't as good as it could have been, but if the alternative was losing him then he should have been started. I understand the reasons Ferguson had for not starting him, just think that we should have made an exception in case of a talent as exceptional as Pogba.
It doesn't set a good precedent to make exceptions to players like that. If people don't understand that, they don't understand Ferguson.
Don't think not starting him had anything to do with attitude.We were scraping results and it was extremely tight at the end. I don't any manager of anyone of the world's top clubs who would have thrown Pogba into the mix given the table at the time
The guy who'd already played 25 games for Sporting and been named in the Portugal squad? Actually, I felt he looked rather more ready than the guy who wasn't playing particularly well for our reserves.
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