Paul Pogba

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Gee Male said:
Really? The league they're playing in is several steps down in terms of quality, without even going into all the scandals and resulting loss of integrity of both the league and that particular club.
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Several steps down? With posts like that as well as number of posts saying that PL is on another level to La Liga you'd think Premier League was the NBA of football leagues. Sure it's better than Serie A right now but Serie A is still a top league, one of the five best in the world. It's not like he moved to Austria or Poland. Teams might not be as good as they were but with Inter, Milan, Juventus, Roma, Lazio, Napoli and Udinese in the league you can't say it's a poor one.
 
Sarni said:
Several steps down? With posts like that as well as number of posts saying that PL is on another level to La Liga you'd think Premier League was the NBA of football leagues. Sure it's better than Serie A right now but Serie A is still a top league, one of the five best in the world. It's not like he moved to Austria or Poland. Teams might not be as good as they were but with Inter, Milan, Juventus, Roma, Lazio, Napoli and Udinese in the league you can't say it's a poor one.
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Fair enough, maybe several is an exaggeration. But it's no further from the truth than to say that Juventus are currently on a par with United.
 
Gee Male said:
Fair enough, maybe several is an exaggeration. But it's no further from the truth than to say that Juventus are currently on a par with United.
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They're a huge club, one of the two biggest clubs in Italy along with Milan. Squad wise there's not all that much between us at the minute, we're better than them but in a CL tie I wouldn't put all my money on us progressing if we ever met them. Their league isn't as strong but it's still a good one. I don't see a move from United to Juventus as much of a step down to be fair, I also find them in a top bracket of clubs along with Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan, Bayern and us.
 
Stats for PP last night

Touches 78
Goals 0
Assists 0
Key passes 0
Passes 59
Pass accuracy 85%
Long balls 10
Accurate long balls 8
Tackles 3
Interceptions 5
Clearances 5
Effective clearances 2
Fouls 1

Seems that he played a more defensive roll last night and didn't do too badly.
To contrast a little: Rafael averages our most amount of tackles per game at 4.7 and Rio has averaged the most amount of interceptions at 2.5. In the Premier league: Mark Noble average 6 tackles per game and Morgan Schneiderlin 4.4 interceptions per game.
 
mo0 said:
for those saying he didn't get any chances or opportunities. he featured in and amongst the first team a lot more often than anyone else at Reserve level last season. he had Rio's arm around him and was encouraged by SAF...nobody to blame except himself over his decision. greedy and impatient imho.
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True point. He was only turned 19 in March, to suggest that he was good enough to get a regular place in our team is retarded. How many 18 yr old youngsters play regularly in the midfield of a top team, except for Wilshere I'm struggling to find anyone.

He made 7 appearances for us overall, if he could've been more patient, he'd have surely started more this season. But yeah, let's blame it on the fact that Park-Rafael started ahead of him one match.

The fact that Raiola has close connections with Juventus and Nedved helped him in his decision.

More or less the same thing happened with Ouasim Bouy, who is 3 months younger than Juve but left Ajax for Juve. His agent is also Raiola.
 
Sarni said:
They're a huge club, one of the two biggest clubs in Italy along with Milan. Squad wise there's not all that much between us at the minute, we're better than them but in a CL tie I wouldn't put all my money on us progressing if we ever met them. Their league isn't as strong but it's still a good one. I don't see a move from United to Juventus as much of a step down to be fair, I also find them in a top bracket of clubs along with Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan, Bayern and us.
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They're a club that's just made their way back to the top in Italy after an enforced exile, and are perhaps, if I'm generous, the biggest of the pretenders to Europe's top table at the moment. They've done nothing in Europe for years, whereas United have been in three finals over the last five or six years.

They're easily a step down from United at the moment, if not more than one (i.e. several) steps down.

Obviously I wouldn't put all my money on United beating them if we came up against them, but I wouldn't be putting all my money on United beating Cluj in our next CL game either. It means nothing.
 
KM said:
Once he made Raiola his agent, we never had much chance tbf. He'd have been given some playing time this season.
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Still don't really understand why he wasn't just given more playing time last season. It'd have been worth risking pissing someone else off to try and keep him happy.

Park for example. He started a number of games in CM and I think we lost every single one? ...and then he left at the end of the season anyway. Struggling to see what we'd have lost out on by starting Pogba in those games instead. Especially considering he's already a much better central midfielder than Park. Gibson also played a few games, for no reason at all. All Pogba got was a few run outs at the end of games that had already been decided. Despite reserve football being so easy for him it was completely embarassing keeping him there.

I don't think his agent necessarily had a lot to do with it. If you can see you're miles better than people being picked ahead of you, and are stuck playing in reserve games...and then you've got Juventus saying "come and play for us instead", you're probably going to give it some serious thought. It's Juventus, not Crawley Town.

The only thing that would make me choose United in that scenario is if they offered me a LOT more money than Juventus, or if I was a life long fan and desperate to play for them.



mo0 said:
for those saying he didn't get any chances or opportunities. he featured in and amongst the first team a lot more often than anyone else at Reserve level last season. he had Rio's arm around him and was encouraged by SAF...nobody to blame except himself over his decision. greedy and impatient imho.
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I suspect he wont have to blame anyone as he'll more than likely have a very good career, and United will be left looking like they missed out.
 
mo0 said:
for those saying he didn't get any chances or opportunities. he featured in and amongst the first team a lot more often than anyone else at Reserve level last season. he had Rio's arm around him and was encouraged by SAF...nobody to blame except himself over his decision. greedy and impatient imho.
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It looked like we only started to give him opportunities when his head had already been turned. We dangled the carrot too late. Do you think that he would have been starting in the first team this year?
 
noodlehair said:
Still don't really understand why he wasn't just given more playing time last season. It'd have been worth risking pissing someone else off to try and keep him happy.

Park for example. He started a number of games in CM and I think we lost every single one? ...and then he left at the end of the season anyway. Struggling to see what we'd have lost out on by starting Pogba in those games instead. Especially considering he's already a much better central midfielder than Park. Gibson also played a few games, for no reason at all. All Pogba got was a few run outs at the end of games that had already been decided. Despite reserve football being so easy for him it was completely embarassing keeping him there.

I don't think his agent necessarily had a lot to do with it. If you can see you're miles better than people being picked ahead of you, and are stuck playing in reserve games...and then you've got Juventus saying "come and play for us instead", you're probably going to give it some serious thought. It's Juventus, not Crawley Town.

The only thing that would make me choose United in that scenario is if they offered me a LOT more money than Juventus, or if I was a life long fan and desperate to play for them.
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I'm willing to bet Nick Powell will make more appearances for Manchester United this season than Pogba does for Juventus. He's just turned 19, I don't expect him to wait for an eternity, but he made 7 appearances for us last season, it'd have been more this season.

I'm not saying that he won't be a good player as he had enough talent to suggest that, but how many other 18 years start for a PL team, let alone a top class club like Manchester United?

I don't think I'm biased in saying that even if I'm a Non-United fan, I'd rather play for Ferguson and United, then Juventus and Conte(who's currently suspended for match-fixing).

Just the one thing I'll blame the club for that they shouldn't have been in a position to let Pogba go into the last year of his contract, but then as Fergie said he changed his agent twice after he joined, so maybe they couldn't do any negotiations.
 
Who ever watched reserves last season, knows that Pogba wasn't even best player in the reserves last year, that he wasn't even first in pecking order from reserve players to get a chance in first team. For example, both Petrucci and Will Keane deserved to get a chance before him in first team, altough none of them were ready for the first team in that time.

It was a good option not playing him, even giving him some time against Stoke wasn't probably fair to other players.
 
noodlehair said:
Still don't really understand why he wasn't just given more playing time last season. It'd have been worth risking pissing someone else off to try and keep him happy.

Park for example. He started a number of games in CM and I think we lost every single one? ...and then he left at the end of the season anyway. Struggling to see what we'd have lost out on by starting Pogba in those games instead. Especially considering he's already a much better central midfielder than Park. Gibson also played a few games, for no reason at all. All Pogba got was a few run outs at the end of games that had already been decided. Despite reserve football being so easy for him it was completely embarassing keeping him there.

I don't think his agent necessarily had a lot to do with it. If you can see you're miles better than people being picked ahead of you, and are stuck playing in reserve games...and then you've got Juventus saying "come and play for us instead", you're probably going to give it some serious thought. It's Juventus, not Crawley Town.

The only thing that would make me choose United in that scenario is if they offered me a LOT more money than Juventus, or if I was a life long fan and desperate to play for them.





I suspect he wont have to blame anyone as he'll more than likely have a very good career, and United will be left looking like they missed out.
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Nail on the head.

And Amar I did watch the reserves and it was so clear that Pogba was a class above. Petrucci and Will Keane are good but talent wise Pogba is in a different league.

I'd put money on Pogba going on and being a regular player in a decent topflight team in one of the major european leagues. I cannot say the same about Petrucci and Will Keane. Can see Will Keane going to a championship club and doing very well and Petrucci will go back and play for a low level seria a team.
 
He is best talent out of those 3, no doubt about that, but both Will Keane and Petrucci were better players for reserves last season.
 
noodlehair said:
Still don't really understand why he wasn't just given more playing time last season. It'd have been worth risking pissing someone else off to try and keep him happy.

Park for example. He started a number of games in CM and I think we lost every single one? ...and then he left at the end of the season anyway. Struggling to see what we'd have lost out on by starting Pogba in those games instead. Especially considering he's already a much better central midfielder than Park. Gibson also played a few games, for no reason at all. All Pogba got was a few run outs at the end of games that had already been decided. Despite reserve football being so easy for him it was completely embarassing keeping him there.

I don't think his agent necessarily had a lot to do with it. If you can see you're miles better than people being picked ahead of you, and are stuck playing in reserve games...and then you've got Juventus saying "come and play for us instead", you're probably going to give it some serious thought. It's Juventus, not Crawley Town.

The only thing that would make me choose United in that scenario is if they offered me a LOT more money than Juventus, or if I was a life long fan and desperate to play for them.





I suspect he wont have to blame anyone as he'll more than likely have a very good career, and United will be left looking like they missed out.
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The Rafael-Park CM pairing left me shocked tbh and i can understand Pogba getting miffed about it. He's a better CM than both of them. If he couldnt get into the team with all our CMs out, its better to move.
 
Varun_Utd said:
The Rafael-Park CM pairing left me shocked tbh and i can understand Pogba getting miffed about it. He's a better CM than both of them. If he couldnt get into the team with all our CMs out, its better to move.
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I never understood this argument. IMO you don't throw unexperienced player in when all the midfielders are missing. You throw him in when we have our midfielders fit because he will benefit much more from playing with Carrick than one of Rafael or Park.
That being said I do think he could've had more chances and it looked like most of his playing time came after the club found out he was Juve bound. There is definately something on our part that we mismanaged, but then Pogba usually didn't really set the world alight when he got the chances even against lower league teams.
 
Doogie said:
I never understood this argument. IMO you don't throw unexperienced player in when all the midfielders are missing. You throw him in when we have our midfielders fit because he will benefit much more from playing with Carrick than one of Rafael or Park.
That being said I do think he could've had more chances and it looked like most of his playing time came after the club found out he was Juve bound. There is definately something on our part that we mismanaged, but then Pogba usually didn't really set the world alight when he got the chances even against lower league teams.
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Playing him alongside an experienced CM would have been ideal but we didnt have the luxury. If you're a young CM who the manager has talked about in the pre season, you'd expect to play when other CMs are out. He couldnt have done any worse than the Park-Rafael pairing.
 
Sadly he could well take it in the future if all goes well.

I really hope the cnut fecks up, though!
 
Moriarty said:
Having failed to dislodge Scholes, Carrick, Cleverley, and Anderson, he's set his sights on ousting Pirlo. Good luck with that lad.
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He didn't have a chance considering Fergie is hell bent on playing Giggs and Scholes until their legs fall off.
 
Well, the guy shows ambition. What did you lot really expect him to say? "I don't want to be the best, I know I'm better than the average guy, but nothing spectacular. So hopefully I'll be sitting in the bench, and try to get a couple of games every season while watching Pirlo from a good place.
 
paceme said:
He's abit thick really isn't he?
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Why? He's getting rave reviews already in Italy and the fans have warmed to him, whereas he was getting boo'ed by some (sp?) at Old Trafford. He started one game and come on as a sub in the last two games also. He's definitely making strides faster there than he would have done here. His choice to leave has been justified so far.

Moriarty said:
I thought Pogba was on the cusp of the 1st XI at United. Isn't that what Fergie said?
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Fergie saying and Fergie doing is two different things. Remember his quotes like 'What would happen if we didn't give chances to Pogba? He would leave'. He knew the consequences and still didn't act.
 
Richter said:
He didn't have a chance considering Fergie is hell bent on playing Giggs and Scholes until their legs fall off.
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From the reserve games I saw the last two years, while Pogba was very good at that level, I honestly don't think he had any chance of ousting Scholes or Carrick this year or next. Right now I would say Cleverley and Anderson are much better midfielders.
 
pocco said:
Why? He's getting rave reviews already in Italy and the fans have warmed to him, whereas he was getting boo'ed by some (sp?) at Old Trafford. He started one game and come on as a sub in the last two games also. He's definitely making strides faster there than he would have done here. His choice to leave has been justified so far.



Fergie saying and Fergie doing is two different things. Remember his quotes like 'What would happen if we didn't give chances to Pogba? He would leave'. He knew the consequences and still didn't act.
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Fergie knew the consequences? So it's all Fergie's fault he left is it? He should have grovelled to Pogba's agent and begged him to influence the boy to stay. Better still, he should have told Scholes to feck off then handed the number 18 shirt to Pogba. Please.
 
It's possible Pogba went to Juve as they were offering him a chance to play a more advanced role in the Pirlo playmaker role. It's possibel Fergie saw him more in the defensive midfielder role for us. Either way he is going to be a star and we simply have to make sure we get an even better player than him in central mid so that we can win some trophies and hopefully make him regret his decision.
 
Moriarty said:
Fergie knew the consequences? So it's all Fergie's fault he left is it? He should have grovelled to Pogba's agent and begged him to influence the boy to stay. Better still, he should have told Scholes to feck off then handed the number 18 shirt to Pogba. Please.
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Half of that has no relevance here. I've bolded it for you.

If Pogba had got chances then he'd still be here. Fergie knew it, we knew it. We all complained at the time that Pogba should have got a run out in certain games; there were plenty of chances to do so. All I'm saying is that Fergie knew the consequences of not giving him a chance and he still didn't give him a chance. Whether that is the ultimate reason he left, who knows? But I reckon it had a major part to play in it.
 
If the strategy is to buy youth, thereby saving £££s, and bring them through ourselves, while simultaneously staying at or near the top, and competing every season, SAF will have to give these kids enough action to keep them motivated and content.

This is not a point specifically about Pogba because there might be factors that I dont know about, related to his attitude or his suitability for the English game or whatever. If SAF felt on this occasion it was not worth throwing Pogba a bone then so be it.

But we cant have it both ways. If we want to rely on these kids, we need to be mindful of their needs. If we want to say to the kids, we are United, you will get your chance when you get your chance, that is fine too, but we need to accept some people will walk, which undermines the strategy.
 
SAF has shown a willingness to play young players in the last few years. Gibson played a lot of games, so have Chicharito and Welbeck, Smalling was thrown right in, as was Jones and De Gea, Rafael too, Cleverley is getting a serious shot and he was never rated as highly as Pogba. I can't believe that Pogba did all the things right that Cleverley did, was willing to go on loan and get better and we didn't give him the chance.

You could even add Nani and Anderson to that list. Somewhat unfortunately, only Cleverley and Gibson of that group were United academy products, but clearly SAF believes if you're good enough you're old enough.
 
gooDevil said:
It's much more likely Pogba didn't do enough to earn the chance, than SAF denied it to him unfairly or unwisely.
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I think with Pogba its been a new experience for Fergie altogether as he never had a youth player before that was nailed on to soon get games to suddenly quit us for another team. Every youth player Fergie had ever coached up until now were here because they loved the club and were only too happy to wait until their chance came. With way the game is going with agents and stuff though, you get talented teenagers that want to have their futures secure before they even kick a ball and are happy to walk away without thinking twice if they get a better offer elsewhere. I am certain that if Fergie had any idea that Pogba would quit if he wasn't given some games early last season then Fergie would have made sure Pogba got some minutes on the pitch. Unfortunately Pogba had already struck a deal with Juve many months before anyone at the club had any idea that he was even thinking of moving on.
 
I'd be inclined to suspect that SAF decided it wasn't worth the trouble to pamper Pogba. If you let one player shirk the standards, soon everyone will want to.
 
pocco said:
Half of that has no relevance here. I've bolded it for you.

If Pogba had got chances then he'd still be here. Fergie knew it, we knew it. We all complained at the time that Pogba should have got a run out in certain games; there were plenty of chances to do so. All I'm saying is that Fergie knew the consequences of not giving him a chance and he still didn't give him a chance. Whether that is the ultimate reason he left, who knows? But I reckon it had a major part to play in it.
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The agent's influence had no relevence? Come off it.
 
gooDevil said:
SAF has shown a willingness to play young players in the last few years. Gibson played a lot of games, so have Chicharito and Welbeck, Smalling was thrown right in, as was Jones and De Gea, Rafael too, Cleverley is getting a serious shot and he was never rated as highly as Pogba. I can't believe that Pogba did all the things right that Cleverley did, was willing to go on loan and get better and we didn't give him the chance.

You could even add Nani and Anderson to that list. Somewhat unfortunately, only Cleverley and Gibson of that group were United academy products, but clearly SAF believes if you're good enough you're old enough.
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Juventus gave him the chance here and now. Cleverley and Gibson got their chances after loan moves to lower division and such; they were both in their twenties when they actually got a crack.

Pogba wanted a chance earlier than that and Juventus were willing to grant him that. They were happy to let him deputize for Pirlo when he was rested; he's getting substitute appearances; he got himself a good move. He's also playing in a better team right now - yeah, feel free to flame me, Juventus have less squad depth but if the two teams met tonight on neutral ground, Juve would be the favourites.
 
Juve did go out and buy two more midfielders who are older and higher rated after getting Pogba, so it's not at all clear he'll be the next man up for rotation. He did get a start against a team that's lost 5 of 6 games so far, and he may well be better off with Juve, so I don't begrudge him that.

But of course SAF has to decide what's best for us, and he must not have felt that was playing Pogba. I wouldn't be surprised if he preferred Powell and he came in to replace Pogba.
 
I'm not really fussed about us losing Pogba, he's a 19-year-old who barely played in the first team, not some key player; it doesn't really matter anyway as Scholes will probably play for 4-5 more seasons (or as long as Fergie stays). I just don't understand the hate the lad's getting in this thread; he made a good career move, good for him, we should move on, and not discuss whether he's a money-grabbing cnut or a timid sheep led astray by his evil agent.

Those who say that Fergie should have given him more opportunities: well that ship has sailed. He was reluctant to do so for one reason or another. Meh. He's got this somewhat frightening tendency to prefer 38-year-olds to talented young players these days but not sure Pogba is a victim of that only.
 
gooDevil said:
I wouldn't be surprised if he preferred Powell and he came in to replace Pogba.
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I doubt that is true judging by how desperate Fergie was to play Pogba at the end of the season after he got word that he could be off to Juve. Lets just hope that Powell can come in and help us to forget Pogba very quickly. Powell has a much better shot than Pogba but Pogba's all round game is definitely significantly superior to Powells right now but Powell is a year younger and could be a real gem in the making.
 
Our problem with bringing through young central midfielders, even talented ones, is that affording them game time when we play 2 central midfielders is always going to be difficult. The ones coming through have to be exceptionally talented (Fabregas sort of talented) or very well suited/mature (Cleverley) to even get a sniff. Pogba is in that bracket below Fabregas in my opinion, and not suited enough to start games of importance in a 2 given that his positioning is terrible.

The Park/Rafael thing must've seemed crazy to him though, to be fair. I just hope by the time the next batch come through we're playing 3 in the centre more often. Scholes/Carrick/Pogba with Valencia, Rooney and Welbeck would've been alright last year, but it's our insistence on playing 2 wingers that complicates everything.
 
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