Exactly this is my post
"I don't think he is racist but he definitely struggles to understand or relate to pogba that is for sure."
Since that post I have made my point clearer.
Paul Pogba racially abused on social media
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
Exactly this is my post
"I don't think he is racist but he definitely struggles to understand or relate to pogba that is for sure."
Since that post I have made my point clearer.
He wouldn't last 15 minutes on a night out with Peter Reid though.
Firstly, I don't think he has made any good points, hence my back and forth.
Second, this whole thread is about racist language used towards Pogba, and some posters objecting to language used by Neville, accusing him of enabling racists and worse. Yes it's all about language. So forgive me but I'm also going to be quite specific in how people use language in such a debate.
Please stop deflecting and provide the evidence. Or admit you have made a false accusation and move on.
Hey its up to you to believe what you want. I can believe what I want as well. In my opinion neville is not the only culprit but generally there is unfair criticism towards black players from British press and media. Whether that's clear racism or subconscious bias I cannot say honestly.
Yes, Peter's exploits are notorious, according to Richard Keys and other forces of evil.I didn't. The point is clear. I know what Neville’s general background is and I said from what I know he isn't racist. But I wouldn't be surprised like many people in the UK if he built a subconscious bias.
You're not being specific on how people use language though. You're asking the same question over and over knowing you're not going to get an answer you find suitable. It's quite obvious he rushed his response and made a claim he can't categorically substantiate but the ironic thing is, a lot of people in here are doing the same thing when they speak on behalf of Gary Neville [to clarify for those hard of reading, I do not know if he is a racist or not].
If you don't agree with any of his points, move onto another one - surely the reason for having a forum is to hold open discussions that evolve yet you're stuck on one of 100s of sentences the guy has posted.
We're United fans holding a p***ing contest over a spelling bee.
So you're projecting and attempting to pass it off as fact. Thought so. I'll leave it there.
I wish neville only talked about pogba as a footballer.
That's entirely different point though and you are generalizing once again.
Neville has taken shots at Pogba, but it's not like there's only the race agenda. He has had questionable behavior in the past, he hasn't put 100% always on the pitch and can be lazy at times, completely unrelated to race.
I agree with you that there is always the lazy stereotype that is easier to be labelled on black players and Yaya is a perfect example of that, despite not really deserving it as a narrative.
However you can't limit Neville's freedom of speech and opinion/criticism of him pulling the racism angle, because it is wrong.
On a completely unrelated note I do believe Pogba is a world class player and should never get the abuse from the fans or cnuts on social media, he's having, or even being singled out for missing a penalty.
Of course there is - the Sterling case is a prime example - but your use of language ‘not the only culprit’ slyly casts aspersions on Neville, but with a kind of built in wiggle room that you will then use to deny having called him racist and/or someone who has incited racist behaviour.
Look let's be honest here. I have never said neville is racist. I said he doesn't understand pogba the same way people dont understand sterling. Neville did that whole speech about sterling but there's nothing that pogba is doing or has done that is different to sterling the only difference is pogba plays for United so Neville can't see the situation objectively.
When you can't see things objectively that is when your subconscious biases can potentially come into play because you are thinking more emotionally than logically.
So it is connected as far as I can see.
I never called him a racist and never said that he incited the racism. Jeez read the content of my sentences. Saying someone is complicit does not mean that they started or are the main creators of said problem.
I guess like most oppressed groups, the people who recognise it the most are those who have been on the receiving end of it. Many people can have a view on lots of things but the lived reality and experience is very very different. This issue has been running for a long time on here from racial stereotypes, references to Pogba's hair, dress and dancing in ways that white players would never be a point of reference to, to the size of Rom's penis. Kick it out campaign is toothless and just symbolism of being seen to do something when in reality nothing as changed since bananas were thrown at black players and John Barnes was booed at Wembley playing for England by English fans. Racism never gone away, just how's it's presented is different but every now and then people forget themselves and it's ugly face reveals itself.
Pogba has done a lot in terms of losing credibility with the fanbase (and Neville included).
You can choose to believe they are related, I'll leave it there - so we can agree to disagree.
Personally I can't see the racism angle and if Pogba was down to earth lad who had the same mentality on and off the pitch like say - Rashford I(personally) don't believe Neville will have the same attitude towards him.
Blame the media and certain pundits who crucify Pogba both on a personal and professional level. After stopping with Sterling, they moved onto Pogba.
Now obviously you can criticise a player for making a mistake, playing poorly etc. But with Pogba the criticism always has a personal undertone and it, unintentionally, incites morons to single him out for hatred. Then you add this to media/criticism of Pogba as a person when by all accounts he’s actually a very likeable and good person... and yeah it’s the media and pundits. Racist morons will always exist, but the media and pundits show them who to target their hate towards.
Rooney. Often held up as a great pro and great player, yet from 2012 onwards he was average to very poor for United. In addition to all his front page behaviour stuff. Have you ever heard him get slaughtered by any pundit or journalists on a personal level for being a drunk etc?
Now obviously you can criticise a player for making a mistake, playing poorly etc. But with Pogba the criticism always has a personal undertone and it, unintentionally, incites morons to single him out for hatred. Then you add this to media/criticism of Pogba as a person when by all accounts he’s actually a very likeable and good person... and yeah it’s the media and pundits. Racist morons will always exist, but the media and pundits show them who to target their hate towards.
Rooney. Often held up as a great pro and great player, yet from 2012 onwards he was average to very poor for United. In addition to all his front page behaviour stuff. Have you ever heard him get slaughtered by any pundit or journalists on a personal level for being a drunk etc?
Has anyone got any screenshots of what was said? Because I can't find any. Also blaming GNev and saying he was dogwhistling is moronic. You genuinely need your heads sorting out if you think a man being paid to crtiticise or praise footballers is somehow causing harassment. Neville is not responsible for the actions of others for dokng his job. By that logic you lot have been guilty of the same thing on here. Or is it different when you aren't a public figure?
People who experience racism on a daily basis understand far better the complexities of this situation than those who dont. Imagine trying to debate with a woman the complexities of sexism? Its better to try and understand. I see those asking for direct evidence that Neville said something incendiary. Racism/ bigotry doesnt work like that. It is sutle most of the time. Take the Sterling case for example. Why do you think racists were emboldened in attacking him? An atmosphere was created (not through direct racist language) by in part the media that it was okay to target this man. Some racists (who were always racist) saw this criticism as a green pass to get at him. These racists were emboldened and of course being the racists they were, they responded the only way they knew how. Im not calling Neville a racist because i dont know the personal man to make any determination. There is no doubt that Nevilles diatribe would have angered these racists even more. They of course responded according to type.
Manmanc, youve made some very good points.
Manmanc, youve made some very good points.
Translation: "I never said Neville is a racist but subcounsciesly is a racist but i never said it.
Because the punishment is laughable. Empty the stadium, dock points from the team - much more viable punishments that might work than fine a multi-billion club 60k for example..
But you have said that he is part of a widespread problem - the media treating black players unfairly. I don’t see how any of his criticism of Pogba has been particularly unfair, let alone abusive, as you said earlier. And thus, I fail to see how he can in any way be seen as complicit in the racist actions of some cretin who walks into a bar and starts spouting racist nonsense about Pogba, just because said cretin brings up Neville’s name.
So, the theory is. We shouldn't criticize anyone because racists or bigots could use those critics to act has racists and bigots and so, we should be blamed for racism because we criticized but didn't said anything racist.
So, the theory is. We shouldn't criticize anyone because racists or bigots could use those critics to act has racists and bigots and so, we should be blamed for racism because we criticized but didn't said anything racist.
That's literally not what he said nor implied but go on being obtuse and completely missing the point
Folks keep trying their damndest to twist peoples words and running with that in this thread
Yes as has been explained if you have a platform with millions of people to influence then yes you have to be more careful with your rhetoric.
People keep saying “no one is accusing Neville of being a racist” well if that’s the case if this threads going to can continue can we actually talk about the abuse Pogba has suffered?
Translation: "I never said Neville is a racist but subcounsciesly is a racist but i never said it.
Alright I'll stop here. Naunce is just completely lost on some. Anyway when I can I will make the point about systemic racism.
Am curious: are people who've experienced racism also allowed to think that Pogba is mostly crap, deserves all the criticism for his lack of commitment, inconsistency etc, and that's what Neville's criticism is also about? What does that then make them?
No, there's really nothing you can do. You can be NEUTRAL and people still do it. You can add every disclaimer, vet every word. People will still do it. Gary Neville is not to blame for trolls. You might as well ban punditry, because why risk it?
but the problem is that it essentially means Neville can’t criticize Pogba’s behaviour in any way, lest he, unwittingly or not, feed the racist troll machine. I hate simplistic, reductive conclusions like that, but it seems to be the only solution you and mancan92 are suggesting.
That's your opinion fair enough and you'll probably say that the media did nothing to enhance or are complicit to the abuse sterling received. After all they were doing is just showing pictures of his tattoo and showing where he went shopping that's their job after all.
...Agree and I guess the fine reflects the commitment to stopping it. I'm 100% convinced if Pogba was white, whilst he would be criticised, the nature of it and it's narrative would be different and I guess that's the racist element. We talk about black players with a different point of reference and inference than their white counterparts.
No he can criticize pogba like any other player. But if he continually criticizes pogba more aggressively, for a longer time and spends time talking about him personally rather than just his football. That's when there is a problem
The funny thing is that way of thinking that they are showing is really racist. Don't they think that not allowing someone to criticize someone of x race or creed or nationality is a discrimination base solely on one of their features has a human being?
Nope you just criticise all players the same and don't dramatise, rant and make personal statements about a certain player on a regular basis.
Nope I'm not having this. Just beyond stupidity. It's not racist to ask for someone to be criticised fairly like his peers. Without personal insults or drama.
Except that I explicitly said earlier that I believe Sterling was a victim of racist treatment from certain segments of the media.
why? Because of his skin colour?
For example, people cant criticize Pogba for his hair cuts but can criticize Ronaldo for the same. For what reason?
People cant criticze Pogba for dancing but can, for example, criticize Peter Crouch for dancing? For what reason?
People cant criticize Pogba for failing a penalty or stealing the ball from a player to get a penalty but can criticize Stoichkov from doing the same?
whats the reason that makes pogba personality not be criticized regarding football? How many times have you heard Ronaldo is arrogant and whatever that has nothing to do with football? Why should Pogba be protected?
And yet here you are saying that his criticis caused this and that he MUST be a racist because he's white and working class. Which, by the way is racist, judging him on things he has no control over. Three quarters of my family are white and working class and have no racist bones in their bodies and I used to live in minority areas and white areas, and recieved hardly any racism myself as a mixed race person. Funnily enough the worst I got was from a black man who thought i was white and kicked me. In chorlton no less. Racism is a human issue, and to see agenda posters like you take advantage of this and slnder a club legend is disgusting.