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2019-20 Performances


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When this guy is in CAM, he does poorly and the Pogba fans say he shouldn't be CAM.

With Lingard so out of form and with the lack of a CAM, it seems so obvious that we should revert back to the midfield / set up that got Ole off to such a good start as United boss.

I know the personnel isn't the same but the midfield should be

---------------------Fred-----------------------
--------McTominay---------Pogba------------

Allows Pogba to create higher up the pitch and McTominay to continue with his box to box role.
 
With Lingard so out of form and with the lack of a CAM, it seems so obvious that we should revert back to the midfield / set up that got Ole off to such a good start as United boss.

I know the personnel isn't the same but the midfield should be

---------------------Fred-----------------------
--------McTominay---------Pogba------------

Allows Pogba to create higher up the pitch and McTominay to continue with his box to box role.
I remember a lot of people complaining about us playing 3 people in midfield against weaker sides as it is apparently too defensive so what is the actual truth?

We repeat the same cliches in cycles, 4-3-3 is the answer, no, 4-2-3-1 is more attacking, no, no, revert to the classic 4-4-2. It seems some players will always get the excuses. McTominay has been playing good and even won the PotM award so what does that mean for Pogba's performances?
 
With Lingard so out of form and with the lack of a CAM, it seems so obvious that we should revert back to the midfield / set up that got Ole off to such a good start as United boss.

I know the personnel isn't the same but the midfield should be

---------------------Fred-----------------------
--------McTominay---------Pogba------------

Allows Pogba to create higher up the pitch and McTominay to continue with his box to box role.
I don't know if we can rely on Fred in that situation.
 
The first problem is a team problem and why I mentioned balance several times, you need to adapt to your own team, hide its flaws and expose its qualities, create your own balance. The second one is not necessarily a problem, not all players have to run the same amount because they don't have the same roles or the same attributes, for example Pogba had far better creativity stats than Liverpool midfielders and was close to Liverpool most creative players(if I remember correctly) and it was fine for them because their creativity came from their fullbacks and front three. As for the attackers it was an issue for us because they weren't compensating it with end product.

You're going off on many tangents but this is the crux of a point. You said Pogba was best in a midfield 3 on the left. I said he doesn't work in a 4-3-3 because in that system the 8s have to be hardworking as a pre-requisite. Look at any coaching resource if you disagree with this point. Its a basic concept because the formation is inherently attacking so space is left in behind for the opposition to exploit, therefore you need those hardworking 8s to win the ball back quickly, close the space quickly or tactical foul quickly to stop counters, therefore you need hard running and hard pressing players in those positions.

Liverpool prove how this system works in the absence of creative 8s but they have tried to bring in a creative and hardworking 8 to enhance the system like City do.

These are the reasons why I believe Pogba doesn't fit this system. I mentioned a 3-5-2 solution which has your 3 in midfield for him to play in his favoured position but has more support for him defensively.
 
The first problem is a team problem and why I mentioned balance several times, you need to adapt to your own team, hide its flaws and expose its qualities, create your own balance. The second one is not necessarily a problem, not all players have to run the same amount because they don't have the same roles or the same attributes, for example Pogba had far better creativity stats than Liverpool midfielders and was close to Liverpool most creative players(if I remember correctly) and it was fine for them because their creativity came from their fullbacks and front three. As for the attackers it was an issue for us because they weren't compensating it with end product.

Now I can make a step in your direction in saying that every player needs to provide something, for example our attackers can't be "lazy", they are not clinical or creative enough for that. Pogba needs to create a lot in order to justify his role, if he doesn't or if his creativity can be provided by our front three and our fullbacks then we will be in a positon to claim that he can be replaced by a hardworking midfielder. But this has nothing to do with modern football, it's a simple matter of balance, that's why I'm not against the idea of selling him if it allows us to finance a different approach. The only issue is that currently Pogba isn't the odd man, there isn't an approach that is one Pogba away from success, we are missing are numerous enough players that it allows us to create anything with the corerct purchases.

I will say it one last time and we should move on after that. We do not have to play like City or Liverpool, there are many ways to be successful in 2019, Pogba doesn't have to be like Wijnaldum or De Bruyne, De Gea doesn't have to be like Ederson and Allisson. Martial doesn't have to be like Aguero or Firminho. Like every teams we need to be creative and defend well, those things are done with 11 players.

You've made really good points in every post...both pros and cons and where the team is currently. The other poster seems to always need to be right, there's no movement nor acceptance from them. No middle ground.

But I've enjoyed reading your take on the situation, I agree. Currently Pogba isn't the problem...but we could sell him and go a different way. We just need a way to go and decide what will work and fit. Currently nothing is working or fitting. Pogba is one of the players that is working best however, and that in itself is a problem.
 
You're going off on many tangents but this is the crux of a point. You said Pogba was best in a midfield 3 on the left. I said he doesn't work in a 4-3-3 because in that system the 8s have to be hardworking as a pre-requisite. Look at any coaching resource if you disagree with this point. Its a basic concept because the formation is inherently attacking so space is left in behind for the opposition to exploit, therefore you need those hardworking 8s to win the ball back quickly, close the space quickly or tactical foul quickly to stop counters, therefore you need hard running and hard pressing players in those positions.

Liverpool prove how this system works in the absence of creative 8s but they have tried to bring in a creative and hardworking 8 to enhance the system like City do.

These are the reasons why I believe Pogba doesn't fit this system. I mentioned a 3-5-2 solution which has your 3 in midfield for him to play in his favoured position but has more support for him defensively.

I didn't. You asked me how I would use him, presumably in our team, and I gave my opinion on him and what the team needed to find balance.
 
So he is injured again after one game back, did Ole rush him back or has Paul had enough and wants out.

Do you think that he would fake an injury that prevents him from playing for France?
 
I didn't. You asked me how I would use him, presumably in our team, and I gave my opinion on him and what the team needed to find balance.

I didn't ask you how you would use him, I asked how would you would fit him in the kind of systems used by the top sides these days i.e. attacking systems that work at the highest level, the kind of system that United wants to play.

We want to play attacking football and I don't believe that hard running and pressing in midfield will ever go away in attacking systems. Football is essentially about finding space and along with modern sports science that have brought greater fitness levels there's a way to play attacking football and to deprive your opponents of space but it requires hard working midfielders. As I said earlier in the conversation, the pitch isn't getting any bigger so I don't see how this evolution is a trend as you would term it.
 
So he was rushed back then.

Based on what I have seen in french reports, the club specified that he was still suffering from the injury sustained against Southampton. So yeah, rushed back.
 
I didn't ask you how you would use him, I asked how would you would fit him in the kind of systems used by the top sides these days i.e. attacking systems that work at the highest level, the kind of system that United wants to play.

We want to play attacking football and I don't believe that hard running and pressing in midfield will ever go away in attacking systems. Football is essentially about finding space and along with modern sports science that have brought greater fitness levels there's a way to play attacking football and to deprive your opponents of space but it requires hard working midfielders. As I said earlier in the conversation, the pitch isn't getting any bigger so I don't see how this evolution is a trend as you would term it.

But as I said they don't use the same systems, they don't use the same type of players and they don't even use the same formations. My guess is that you are thinking about Liverpool and I already addressed that point.
 
But as I said they don't use the same systems, they don't use the same type of players and they don't even use the same formations. My guess is that you are thinking about Liverpool and I already addressed that point.

I'm not thinking of Liverpool specifically no. Look at the PL last season

1 City
2 Liverpool
3 Chelsea

The one commonality in all those 4-3-3 systems was that they had strong runners and pressers in the midfield 8 positions. They were all 11.5km per match avg plus except for Gundogan (although a rotation option) IIRC who was a little less at 11.2km per game or something.
 
I'm not thinking of Liverpool specifically no. Look at the PL last season

1 City
2 Liverpool
3 Chelsea

The one commonality in all those 4-3-3 systems was that they had strong runners and pressers in the midfield 8 positions. They were all 11.5km per match avg plus except for Gundogan (although a rotation option) IIRC who was a little less at 11.2km per game or something.

And they don't use the same players or the same system, they are all adapted to the players at their disposal. What you said about Pogba applies to all our players, McTominay wouldn't fit with City or Chelsea, Matic would fit with no one, same as Fred and Pogba. If you think that the meters run that separates Pogba from the rest is actually the source of the imbalance then there isn't much to talk about. I mean Matic was around 12km, he couldn't press to save his life and is useless at everything else.

And we don't have to play like these teams, who don't even play like each others.
 
And they don't use the same players or the same system, they are all adapted to the players at their disposal. What you said about Pogba applies to all our players, McTominay wouldn't fit with City or Chelsea, Matic would fit with no one, same as Fred and Pogba. If you think that the meters run that separates Pogba from the rest is actually the source of the imbalance then there isn't much to talk about. I mean Matic was around 12km, he couldn't press to save his life and is useless at everything else.

And we don't have to play like these teams, who don't even play like each others.

I haven't once said that Pogba is the only problem with our team. Although I do think that we would be better off selling him and rebuilding the midfield.

Sorry JP but all those managers played a 4-3-3 with a higher energy and pressing style.
 
I haven't once said that Pogba is the only problem with our team. Although I do think that we would be better off selling him and rebuilding the midfield.

Sorry JP but all those managers played a 4-3-3 with a higher energy and pressing style.

But you don't have to copy them, the same way teams didn't have to copy Mourinho in 2004, Guardiola in 2009, SAF during his entire career or Heyckes in 2012, all of these managers did what fitted them and their players. At the end of the day, Sarri hasn't won much and Klopp before last season wasn't winning much either while Guardiola has spent an absolute fortune for relative success. Chelsea in particular weren't head and shoulders better than us, in a pretty bad season for us.

If anything, our goal should be to find a recipe to nullify those high energy/industrious midfields instead of copying them.
 
Many many players have faked an injury to avoid internationals (this isn’t a pop at pogba)

The implication here is he's faking injury to avoid playing for us....doesn't make sense that he's missed the two international breaks but plYed for us before the first and in between the second...but yeah he's faking it because he doesn't want to play for united :rolleyes:
 
The implication here is he's faking injury to avoid playing for us....doesn't make sense that he's missed the two international breaks but plYed for us before the first and in between the second...but yeah he's faking it because he doesn't want to play for united :rolleyes:

No implication honest, was just replying to someone that made it sound like a player would never swerve international duty in general to get themselves a cheeky little break when we all know that’s not true.
 
No implication honest, was just replying to someone that made it sound like a player would never swerve international duty in general to get themselves a cheeky little break when we all know that’s not true.
They would do that for pointless friendlies but rarely for important qualifiers. Context is massively important here, the next 2 games coming for your idol are vital qualifiers (vs Island 3rd of the group and Turkey tied with 15 points)
 
The implication here is he's faking injury to avoid playing for us....doesn't make sense that he's missed the two international breaks but plYed for us before the first and in between the second...but yeah he's faking it because he doesn't want to play for united :rolleyes:

He might not be faking but he clearly doesn't want to play for United.
 
They would do that for pointless friendlies but rarely for important qualifiers. Context is massively important here, the next 2 games coming for your idol are vital qualifiers (vs Island 3rd of the group and Turkey tied with 15 points)

Haha my idol ;) I’m not even sure he’d get in the first 11 on current form. France aren’t as desperately sad as us.
 
I think he'll leave this summer and I don't blame him.

We've not matched his ambition, we not signed the quality of players who can take advantage of his talent.

Right now we're playing Lingard as CAM rather than this guy.
He won't cause he's dog shit and nobody else will pay the kind of money we'd ask for him.
 
He might not be faking but he clearly doesn't want to play for United.

Why type such stupidness?

Take another look at the situation and clearly he’s been playing for United through injury since August. Whilst missing not one but two international breaks.

Played out of necessity due to our club getting rid of two midfielders and not replacing them.

Clearly he wants to play for United.
 
Why type such stupidness?

Take another look at the situation and clearly he’s been playing for United through injury since August. Whilst missing not one but two international breaks.

Played out of necessity due to our club getting rid of two midfielders and not replacing them.

Clearly he wants to play for United.

Yeah he wanted to play for United as well when he was shite talking all summer trying to engineer a transfer.

Talented though he is ... he is poison. Sooner the better he leaves.
 
Yeah he wanted to play for United as well when he was shite talking all summer trying to engineer a transfer.

Talented though he is ... he is poison. Sooner the better he leaves.

One benefit of him not playing for France is him stirring things up with the foreign press, im sure his brother or agent will do the honours at some point though to which Pogba never refutes.
 
One benefit of him not playing for France is him stirring things up with the foreign press, im sure his brother or agent will do the honours at some point though to which Pogba never refutes.

If he was putting in world class performances for us then we could defend him but he's not. Move him on. Get players with the correct attitude.
 
The Pogba apologists are kidding themselves, there's absolutely no way he wants to be here. Given the option he would be long gone by now. He's playing like he couldn't give a feck, the term prima donna could not be better suited to any other player. The sooner we get rid the better.
 
;) indeed. In all honesty, he's among the automatic starters when fit even if we do have much more options there than United.

Who would have thought De Gea would lose his position as Spain’s automatic no1 after he collected his last player of the year award at united. All the arguments about whether he’s good enough, United are good enough (clearly not) playing in the wrong position etc aside he has not had a good year.
 
Who would have thought De Gea would lose his position as Spain’s automatic no1 after he collected his last player of the year award at united. All the arguments about whether he’s good enough, United are good enough (clearly not) playing in the wrong position etc aside he has not had a good year.
I'm just talking about the immediate future. Unless a huge injury happens, Pogba will start at the Euros if France qualifies. Beyond that, no one can sure.
Deschamps still starts Giroud who hasn't been an indisputed starter in recent years at his clubs.
 
Yeah he wanted to play for United as well when he was shite talking all summer trying to engineer a transfer.

Talented though he is ... he is poison. Sooner the better he leaves.
Of course he wanted to go (can anyone seriously blame him?), but he never 'talked shite all summer'. He made a couple of comments and his agent made a couple of comments, that's it. Once we made it obvious that we weren't going to sell, he knuckled down, came back for the preseason and from all accounts made no problems at all. He's then proceeded to play every game he can, including while obviously nursing injuries that Ole shouldn't have been risking him with which have then made him miss important international matches.

But yes, he's poison. Of course.
 
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