[TrustInOle]

With regards to Raiola, I would say it is ‘not helpful’. On the whole, I have said many times that I have less problem with him than most seem to. And tbh, I don’t think football used to be as sensitive as this in the past. Agents always talk shit, they use the media in part of their chess battle with clubs to get what they want, and it has been that way for ages. In Raiola’s case tbh, I genuinely think he is actually just opinionated and gives his views on footy, which doesn’t make good reading for us, but no football commentators views have made good reading for us for a while.

That said, fans didn’t used to care as much as they do in this case. I’ve grown up reading comments attributed to agents of various players from around the world about their players ‘open’ to this, ‘considering’ that, ‘flattered’ about them. I’ve never seen a whole ‘we need to get this agent away from the club’ campaign as a result. Again, I don’t think it is helpful, mainly because we are the subject of such criticism and scrutiny at the moment, and it just fuels the negativity. If we were stronger, I’d care even less. It’s part of the game. Part of negotiation strategies. And I’ve said before, I doubt the club are as worked up about Raiola as the fans and media seem to be. All in a day’s work for them I suspect. They probably have more agents than him trying other tactics every day to strong arm them. They probably have agents of players in the fecking academy talking shit for an extra 2.5k a week, and has been the way for years.

With regards to ‘pushing for a move’, I don’t agree with that assessment necessarily. The simple facts are that since Pogba made his comments last May or June, about 3 or 4 months of transfer window have passed. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I didn’t really see the player or the agent trying to force their way out in either window. Given that a player can only leave during a window, for a player who I’ve read has been trying to ‘force a move’, there was notably little force applied! In the summer we received an actual bid from Real for Pogba, which of course we rejected as it was a joke. I didn’t notice any fuss, any demand that we reject it, any comments in the media at the time that ‘I’ve made my feelings clear, I hope the deal can get done’. Yea, there have been comments since then, but just the sort of stuff that happens in football with big players. I heard the same from Hazard’s camp for years regarding Madrid, the same regarding Mbappé and Real and so on. Nothing I would fall ‘forcing a move’. The agent of a different Real player used to do the same with us to get more money there. Casillas, Ramos, Coentrao etc. It’s modern football. When a player is going to leave, he will leave.

Again very insightful, thank you. I also don't think it helps that Mino is probably the most known agent in football ATM, maybe barring Mendez. Add to this the fact stories are circulating from him about the most media publicized club in world football, with said player being our most prized asset. Media definitely don't help but like you said, sensitivity levels have changed as I can't remember Ronaldo or even Rooney dividing the fan base as much as current times. My view (hope) is this is contract negotiations, none to similar to Bale and ourselves in recent years. TBH I can't recall any players criticising Mino for the job he does.

Again, I applaud your unbiased view point and look forward to more insightful positivity from yourself. Half the reason I don't spend much time commenting any more is the pure wave after wave of negativity.

 

[Isotope]

Out of the two, one must surely need to operate deeper to what they're normally used to though, do you think they will be able to get the best out of each other?

From a technical standpoint it's a no brainer but where they're positioned on the pitch, I'm curious how it would work. Sort of reminds me of the Gerrard-Lampard issue. Not saying that's what will happen but they both have very similar skill sets suited best higher up the pitch.

We can do with Kroos-Modric and Xavi-Iniesta mode. One is a bit deeper, but eventually both can go forward interchangeably. But then we'll need a dedicated DM. I think McTom can grow into that role.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Nor is it your typical starting point for listing the problems with a team. That would be like starting with Jack Grealish when doing an autopsy of why Villa are so poor on the basis that it doesn’t matter that he’s the most creative person for a team that got relegated.

I'd rather have Jack Grealish at Utd giving his all than Pogba going through the motions. Which he has done a lot.

Bar Oles first 3 months Pogba just hasn't been that good for us and his fan boys are struggling to accept it. Souness and others have been right to make the point. He has banged on about it too much but he's still right. Souness was a proper player. And a midfielder too. He knows his stuff. Keane has been equally critical of him too. Another top midfielder.

 

[Rozay]

I'd rather have Jack Grealish at Utd giving his all than Pogba going through the motions. Which he has done a lot.

Bar Oles first 3 months Pogba just hasn't been that good for us and his fan boys are struggling to accept it. Souness and others have been right to make the point. He has banged on about it too much but he's still right. Souness was a proper player. And a midfielder too. He knows his stuff. Keane has been equally critical of him too. Another top midfielder.

Okay.

And like it or not, Pogba is also ‘another top midfielder’.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Is Pogba's only good run for us really the City comeback and Ole's first few months?

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Okay.

And like it or not, Pogba is also ‘another top midfielder’.

Not for us he hasn't been. Been going to United since 1990 and he's not at the very top of the list of midfielders we've had.

Pogba at Juve and France is all we hear because for us he's been bang average.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

Is Pogba's only good run for us really the City comeback and Ole's first few months?

He's had other good games obviously but the only consistent run was oles first 3 months. That's it. Other than that it's been the odd game here and there. World class players do it week in week out. He hasn't for us.

 

[Shark]

He's had other good games obviously but the only consistent run was oles first 3 months. That's it. Other than that it's been the odd game here and there. World class players do it week in week out. He hasn't for us.

World class players like De Bruyne, Salah and Kane still need to exist in well oiled machines to do that, we simply haven been one in 6 years which is why so many promising players have failed here. It’s only recently that we’ve actually started looking like a team with a good atmosphere and players that fit the system our manager wants to play.

 

[Rozay]

He's had other good games obviously but the only consistent run was oles first 3 months. That's it. Other than that it's been the odd game here and there. World class players do it week in week out. He hasn't for us.

That’s not true though. He’s had a number of other good runs. Maybe not as good as that spell under Ole, but he was as good as anyone in the game in that spell. Anything less than that isn’t ‘bang average’.

 

[Brightonian]

Is Pogba's only good run for us really the City comeback and Ole's first few months?

Depends what you mean by run. Those are the ones he's put together where he's been excellent in a whole string of games. But there've been plenty of spells where he's been good throughout and excellent in patches.

Not speaking to the Pogba argument specifically (I'm neither a fanboy or a hater and find the whole thing exhausting), we should avoid this mindset that good games only count if they come in long unbroken runs. If Pogba wins us three games but in between them he is underwhelming in two, he still won us those three games. The points stay on the board.

 

[Rolaholic]

World class players like De Bruyne, Salah and Kane still need to exist in well oiled machines to do that, we simply haven been one in 6 years which is why so many promising players have failed here. It’s only recently that we’ve actually started looking like a team with a good atmosphere and players that fit the system our manager wants to play.

Spot on post, good players became great once surrounded by other good/quality players. It's not a new concept in the least but it gets thrown out the window whenever Pogba is the topic.

Also find it funny how De Bruyne went almost a full calendar year without an assist not that long ago, playing in a better and deeper squad than we've had in at least a decade that won the title the year prior, without a peep in terms of personal criticism aimed at him yet the second he picks up his form he's the greatest midfielder to ever play in England

Granted he was injured a bit that year but so has Pogba this year coming off a career season but the narratives surrounding both during a similar period couldn't be more different

 

[MadDogg]

He's had other good games obviously but the only consistent run was oles first 3 months. That's it. Other than that it's been the odd game here and there. World class players do it week in week out. He hasn't for us.

Even world class players will find it hard to do so when surrounded by a dysfunctional team.

Last season during Mourinho's time, during the period where Pogba got more shit than ever before, the reality was that he was arguably our most consistent player. Not because he actually was consistent (he was 50/50 between great and poor) but because literally every other player in the team was even worse. The only two who you can make any argument for being more consistent were Shaw and Lindelof, and both of those were about 60/40 decent and poor. That period was a great snapshot because of how obvious it all was, but similar has been happening during his entire time here (and the few years before that as well). We've just been an incredibly poor team, not necessarily in talent but in terms of teamwork, movement and understanding. It's going to be hard for anybody to be consistent in that environment, but particularly a creative midfielder.

Don't get me wrong, Pogba definitely has to take his share of the blame. There have been times where his mentality should have been better and he's let his frustrations bring him down instead of using it to drive himself and the team forwards. But the criticism should be fair.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

World class players like De Bruyne, Salah and Kane still need to exist in well oiled machines to do that, we simply haven been one in 6 years which is why so many promising players have failed here. It’s only recently that we’ve actually started looking like a team with a good atmosphere and players that fit the system our manager wants to play.

And look who hasn't been playing......

 

[He'sRaldo]

And look who hasn't been playing......

We've been abysmal creatively for most of the season.

 

[Nou_Camp99]

We've been abysmal creatively for most of the season.

Since we signed Bruno we've been 2nd best team in league I think. Only Liverpool got more pts. Stand to be corrected on that.

We are 3pts off 4th place. Beat Chelsea 3 times, Beat City 3 times, beat Spurs, 1 of only 2 teams to stop Liverpool winning, Beat Leicester....... In last 16 in EL and last 8 of FA cup......

And Mr I'm too good to work hard for my team has barely kicked a ball.

He's simply not the player you all think he is. He's got talent in abundance but he's got so many flaws that hold him back. His attitude and work rate off the ball at times is laughable. Gets caught dilly dallying and gives away a big chance. How many times have we seen it?

 

[reddevil80]

Since we signed Bruno we've been 2nd best team in league I think. Only Liverpool got more pts. Stand to be corrected on that.

We are 3pts off 4th place. Beat Chelsea 3 times, Beat City 3 times, beat Spurs, 1 of only 2 teams to stop Liverpool winning, Beat Leicester....... In last 16 in EL and last 8 of FA cup......

And Mr I'm too good to work hard for my team has barely kicked a ball.

He's simply not the player you all think he is. He's got talent in abundance but he's got so many flaws that hold him back. His attitude and work rate off the ball at times is laughable. Gets caught dilly dallying and gives away a big chance. How many times have we seen it?

wow, how much hatred for one player? As another opinion, do you not think his skills and passes have been wasted when the squads are constantly being changed through injuries or managers losing faith? The players around him had been average, there was an unhappy vibe all around OT, on the pitch, off the pitch and maybe in the background with the board. With players not attacking and making space for most of the season, new players starting to find their footing in the club and a manager who has had to deal with big injuries one after another, when he has been on the pitch, he still made incisive passes and runs and attempted to make chances.

He will have been frustrated if he is attempting to switch the play or put the ball through the channels and there isn't anyone making those runs. Do you not believe he is still a world class player who would create such a destructive midfield force with the players now involved? Are you that blinkered to Pogbas effect that, even though the rest of the footballing world, from fans to coaches to pundits et al. still percieve him as being one of the most expensive players on the planet?

 

[mancan92]

You forgetting a second place finish in there mate.

Also the fact Scholes played with world class footballers his whole career

 

[He'sRaldo]

Since we signed Bruno we've been 2nd best team in league I think. Only Liverpool got more pts. Stand to be corrected on that.

We are 3pts off 4th place. Beat Chelsea 3 times, Beat City 3 times, beat Spurs, 1 of only 2 teams to stop Liverpool winning, Beat Leicester....... In last 16 in EL and last 8 of FA cup......

And Mr I'm too good to work hard for my team has barely kicked a ball.

He's simply not the player you all think he is. He's got talent in abundance but he's got so many flaws that hold him back. His attitude and work rate off the ball at times is laughable. Gets caught dilly dallying and gives away a big chance. How many times have we seen it?

You were talking about relegation earlier in the season, talking about sacking the manager. Is a small run of form all it takes to forget that we still need the best players in our team? A few games to wipe our abysmal run from memory completely?

In fact, if anything the last few games should highlight that we are severely lacking in quality, something which Bruno has managed to provide, and we shouldn't be so quick to focus purely on and exaggerate the flaws of our most quality player.

But I guess that's the issue with selective memory, we remember only what we want to. Just like all Pogba's contributions to our campaigns are wiped from memory as soon as he loses the ball. And our abysmal performances this season are swiftly forgotten as soon as the slightest positive run of form occurs.

 

[Kag]

His increased media profile in recent weeks isn’t coincidental. I think he’s staying, for now at least, and is slowly working to make amends. Expect more to come.

 

[Feed Me]

Since we signed Bruno we've been 2nd best team in league I think. Only Liverpool got more pts. Stand to be corrected on that.

We are 3pts off 4th place. Beat Chelsea 3 times, Beat City 3 times, beat Spurs, 1 of only 2 teams to stop Liverpool winning, Beat Leicester....... In last 16 in EL and last 8 of FA cup......

And Mr I'm too good to work hard for my team has barely kicked a ball.

He's simply not the player you all think he is. He's got talent in abundance but he's got so many flaws that hold him back. His attitude and work rate off the ball at times is laughable. Gets caught dilly dallying and gives away a big chance. How many times have we seen it?

Maybe we would be even higher in the table with him in the side?

 

[VP89]

Think the difference with Gerrard and Lampard is they were expected to operate as a pair. It is the third midfielder that would have made it work, which we will have in the current game. Otherwise we would have had a ‘can Kevin De Bruyne’ and David Silva play together in a two debate. They can’t of course, but add Fernandinho, then they both only need to help out a bit.

Personally, I’m not sure we have the Fernandinho we need for it just now.

Excellent point, and likely coincides with the rumours that we're in the market for a holding player.

We can do with Kroos-Modric and Xavi-Iniesta mode. One is a bit deeper, but eventually both can go forward interchangeably. But then we'll need a dedicated DM. I think McTom can grow into that role.

Yeah we'd need a dedicated DM, and out of the two I'd prefer Bruno higher up the pitch, as he appears more suited to tighter positions and looks to play quicker passes. Pogba can still continue with his late runs into the box but his physicality may be suited better to an 8 than a 10 in comparison to Bruno.

 

[laughtersassassin]

I know Partey isn't exactly a DM but watching his game I think he could be a brilliant one. I'd risk it and go for a midfield 3 of Partey Bruno Pogba.

Sould work against every team below the top 6 for sure.

The we have McTom Fred and Matic to fill against when needed and versus top 6. Then Matic leaving the next season.

 

[Adisa]

 

[Icemav]

Excellent point, and likely coincides with the rumours that we're in the market for a holding player.


Yeah we'd need a dedicated DM, and out of the two I'd prefer Bruno higher up the pitch, as he appears more suited to tighter positions and looks to play quicker passes. Pogba can still continue with his late runs into the box but his physicality may be suited better to an 8 than a 10 in comparison to Bruno.

Its exsctly how we would set up with Pogba and Fernandes. Of course Fred and Matic can do a job of holding but there might be better options available out there. Its also a long season so playing Matic-Fred-Pogba or Fred-Mctom-Fernandes would work fine for many games.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

That's painful to listen to. The worst thing is there's so many people who think like Mills and frankly it's a joke.

 

[DWelbz19]

That’s just more of what we already know it is, isn’t it? Don’t think such drivel merits listening to.

Edit: the very first sentence is just factually incorrect.

 

[JPRouve]

The weirdest thing in all of this is that the idea that Pogba hasn't played well has actually stuck. When in reality Pogba has played well for the most part, very well at times and badly a few times, while we should question whether in hindsight his performances justify the world record fee paid by United, only absolute weapons would actually turn it in into "he hasn't played well".

 

[RUCK4444]

The weirdest thing in all of this is that the idea that Pogba hasn't played well has actually stuck. When in reality Pogba has played well for the most part, very well at times and badly a few times, while we should question whether in hindsight his performances justify the world record fee paid by United, only absolute weapons would actually turn in into "he hasn't played well".

This. Completely and utterly this.

It's a narrative that people unfortunately get sucked into. Unfortunately I believe it was the same for Ole until the recent improvement before the Covid break.

Pogba even in his worst spells has been our best creator and goalscorer.

There's a clear agenda against him from some. The guy is CRAZY talented, put him in this side with the new enforcement's we have and watch him shine (just like he did at Juve and with France.)

 

[Adisa]

 

[Rozay]

The weirdest thing in all of this is that the idea that Pogba hasn't played well has actually stuck. When in reality Pogba has played well for the most part, very well at times and badly a few times, while we should question whether in hindsight his performances justify the world record fee paid by United, only absolute weapons would actually turn it in into "he hasn't played well".

This x 10000000. I keep saying this. I have challenged people who have fallen into the trap of just mindlessly repeating it over and over to be more specific. I’ve asked ‘how often would you say he plays poorly? 7 out of every 10 games? 8 out of 10? 2 out of 10?’ Nobody on here has ever answered that question. Being forced to commit to a number like that in order to justify your position obviously exposes that it is not one they have genuinely formed from their own observation. The way they go on about underperforming, they should be confident enough to say that it’s 6 or 7 games out of every 10, so that the position can be more closely scrutinised and challenged, but they never do.

As I have often said, the same with many other players - just go back and look. On this very forum, every player has a performance thread after every single game. Have a look at the first couple of pages after a game. Not only for Pogba, but what people were saying at those times soon changes. Good games get erased, and bad games get erased, depending on what argument they are making.

 

[Rolaholic]

Guess we should've blamed it on him being a bald cnut first and foremost when he fecked up against Sweden in 2002 then...

 

[JPRouve]

This x 10000000. I keep saying this. I have challenged people who have fallen into the trap of just mindlessly repeating it over and over to be more specific. I’ve asked ‘how often would you say he plays poorly? 7 out of every 10 games? 8 out of 10? 2 out of 10?’ Nobody on here has ever answered that question. Being forced to commit to a number like that in order to justify your position obviously exposes that it is not one they have genuinely formed from their own observation. The way they go on about underperforming, they should be confident enough to say that it’s 6 or 7 games out of every 10, so that the position can be more closely scrutinised and challenged, but they never do.

As I have often said, the same with many other players - just go back and look. On this very forum, every player has a performance thread after every single game. Have a look at the first couple of pages after a game. Not only for Pogba, but what people were saying at those times soon changes. Good games get erased, and bad games get erased, depending on what argument they are making.

I believe that I can answer that question Pogba, if you stretch it you could go at 1 out of 10, basically 14-15 poor games out of the 140 that he played since 2016, I couldn't name them and only remember a handful. Similarly he probably has 14-15 really good games and the rest are average games by top players standards. In a way Pogba's public perception remind's me Carrick or Seedorf, these are players that have been questioned or downplayed for almost the entirety of their careers despite the fact that if you look at entire seasons they are always among the best performers in their teams, leagues and position groups.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Luckily for Pogba, he has such a genuinely nice character that people have actively come out to defend him against the lazy stereotypes that footballers like him face.

If he was less good-natured and charismatic, his attitude would have been disparaged with no one coming out to defend him and speak the truth. Which I'm sure happens to a lot of other footballers who don't fit the profile.

 

[Feed Me]

Pogba is a successful black man with swagger, which is all that needs to be said when considering his treatment at the hands of the media.

 

[spiriticon]

I do genuinely like Paul Pogba but I just am not convinced that he wants to be here. It seems like he has got his mind set on a fresh start and we can't fault him for that, but it's not great for us long term either.

If we force him to stay for another year and refuse to sell, he'll stay and not create too much fuss I don't think. But we won't ever get that 100% out of him next year and I'd rather we move him on for the benefit of everybody.

 

[Rozay]

I believe that I can answer that question Pogba, if you stretch it you could go at 1 out of 10, basically 14-15 poor games out of the 140 that he played since 2016, I couldn't name them and only remember a handful. Similarly he probably has 14-15 really good games and the rest are average games by top players standards. In a way Pogba's public perception remind's me Carrick or Seedorf, these are players that have been questioned or downplayed for almost the entirety of their careers despite the fact that if you look at entire seasons they are always among the best performers in their teams, leagues and position groups.

I think I’d go along with those figures too. I’d also add that a lot of those ‘average games by top player standards’ have been bread and butter performances for many top players across the game. He’s won MOTM in a number of those games, for example, given he’s won that award more than the 14/15 really good games you speak of. A good performance with no goal or assist in a routine 2-0 home win doesn’t stick in the memory. Nobody may have been spectacular, and he was still the best player on the pitch. These are the games that have sneakily been filed under ‘poor performance’ in retrospect, and it’s just false. They were not considered poor performances 10 minutes after the game. They were not games that will stick in the memory for years though, and have been taken away from him at a later date.

I can pluck a random game being United vs Leicester in August 2017 where he was voted MOTM, and we won 2-0. I doubt that makes anyone’s list of ‘great performances’ for him, but it’s a forgotten game like this which is swept into the ‘he hasn’t played well’ category.

 

[JPRouve]

Pogba is a successful black man with swagger, which is all that needs to be said when considering his treatment at the hands of the media.

I don't think that his skin color is actually relevant here, I believe that there are two other angles linked to media themselves. Pogba is one of the most recognizable athletes in the world, he is highly marketable like Beckham. He was also a wonderkid, Pogba was a star at youth level and his stardom went beyond youth level, in that sense you could compare him to star teenagers like Mbappé or De Ligt. The last two players that I mentioned are scrutinized and if you look around, you will notice that in the last months their performances have been criticized even though they have actually been among the best performers, as for Beckham we all know what people have said about him, one of the most professional player of his time read about his lack of dedication and professionalism, he also happens to be loved by all his teammates.

Media have the habit of creating a circus around recognizable figures, it's their way to monetize marketability.

 

[He'sRaldo]

I don't think that his skin color is actually relevant here, I believe that there are two other angles linked to media themselves. Pogba is one of the most recognizable athletes in the world, he is highly marketable like Beckham. He was also a wonderkid, Pogba was a star at youth level and his stardom went beyond youth level, in that sense you could compare him to star teenagers like Mbappé or De Ligt. The last two players that I mentioned are scrutinized and if you look around, you will notice that in the last months their performances have been criticized even though they have actually been among the best performers, as for Beckham we all know what people have said about him, one of the most professional player of his time read about his lack of dedication and professionalism, he also happens to be loved by all his teammates.

Media have the habit of creating a circus around recognizable figures, it's their way to monetize marketability.

The question then is why is Pogba's criticism always very personal, and about attitude, character, social media, disinterest, etc.

Why isn't he just criticized for performances like normal? That's my gripe, I hate the fact that his actual character is being falsely represented constantly, to the point that people he's had contact with have actually noticed it and have come out to defend him. It's at that level now.

 

[laughtersassassin]

I

It's so funny that Pogba got made a villain by Jose.

Because is there many footballers in world football who come off as nicer? Everyone talks about how humble kind and respectful he is and how is is such a positive person to be around.

He is the perfect person to have at a club and that's a major reason why I'll always wish the best for him and argue tooth and nail against those who hate him.

 

[JPRouve]

The question then is why is Pogba's criticism always very personal, and about attitude, character, social media, disinterest, etc.

Why isn't he just criticized for performances like normal? That's my gripe, I hate the fact that his actual character is being falsely represented constantly, to the point that people he's had contact with have actually noticed it and have come out to defend him. It's at that level now.

Because there is nothing to say about his performances, there would be nothing to print or record if they focused on his performances. It has never been about his performances, it's all about making money around his name. Remember that Pogba wasn't better for Juventus and he was far worse for France before 2016, they are questioning the focus of a player that has improved and was already seen as one of the best.

Edit: And by the way, Grealish haircut requires weekly work. On that particular topic, people mentioning racial/cultural prejudice have a point because European hairstyle doesn't have the same stigma when it comes to the perceived attention that it requires and whether it is "too much of a focus".