[roonster09]

Yeah, because that's exactly what I meant and said.

I want both to be the best and I get no joy from criticising our own players but that's just what I see right now. If these two are to fulfill their potential they need to cut out their mistakes.

Is it coincidence that you think Pogba, Martial and also Rashford lack intelligence when these are the 3 player who takes risks and always try to create?

Maybe we need players like Cleverley who are very intelligent and never gives away possession.

 

[Giggsyking]

No, that's why I want him dropped.

then you should ask for Pogba to start ahead of Matic, what does Matic offer Pogba cant do better?

 

[Di Maria's angel]

What mistakes they do? Players who tries to create gives away possession, higher risk and higher gain. Pogba loses possession in midfield sometimes, when he pulls it off, he takes away 2-4 players from the game. That's the risk he should take to create in our static team.

Both have positioning issues, neither press, Martial doesn't move off the ball enough, Pogbas need to constantly take risks in our half are not always needed - Scholes, himself, stated how he needs to keep it simple more often than not, Pogba constantly stropping when he loses the ball. All players have issues, no doubt, but these two are meant to be the most talented at the club thus, in order to be the best, they have to make as few mistakes as possible.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

Is it coincidence that you think Pogba, Martial and also Rashford lack intelligence when these are the 3 player who takes risks and always try to create?

Maybe we need players like Cleverley who are very intelligent and never gives away possession.

There's a time and place. You can't always look to create whenever you get the ball. Look at City, for instance, they don't just receive the ball in midfield and look to create a goal scoring opportunity. It's all calculated - of course, Pep has had a huge impact in this. Like I mentioned before, this could be an issue for Jose to sort out and he hasn't but you'd expect a professional footballer to know when hes right or wrong.

I got my username because I defended di Maria when he played in a similar way to Pogba, Rashford and Martial and no excuses were afforded for him. Funny how things change.

 

[Beachryan]

Anytime I think the board aren't complete idiots - just very slow to action - I get that nagging feeling that I'm just wrong. Good examples include letting LVG sell Rafael, Hernandez and Nani leave for peanuts, and of course the Fellaini 4m.

But choosing Jose over Pogba would be their new crowning achievement. One of them is approaching his prime, just won the premier footballing competition in the world, is marketable and cost us almost 100m. The other is toxic, won't have won a major trophy for 4 years and could only be marketable if a gofundme was started to remove him.

Purely from a business perspective, the board should be protecting the more impactful (in a good way) asset.

Reading the papers and listening to the British pundits, we also start getting into seriously dodgy racial territory imo. Pogba isn't 'disciplined', or 'intelligent', or lacks 'tactical understanding'. Unlike that nice white fella next to him, who is so good at tactics that he's been a defensive midfielder as we concede 2 goals per match, and hurts us anytime we meander into the opponent's half.

If Pogba leaves United, he will be awesome, for at least another 4/5 years. If Jose leaves United, he'll be out of football until the next time the Portugal team falters.

 

[finneh]

then you should ask for Pogba to start ahead of Matic, what does Matic offer Pogba cant do better?

Work hard?

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Christ

You just knew it was coming hahaha. This is ludicrous to witness. Like I don’t want to be a follower of a mid table club, but I suppose I better start getting my mind right for it.

 

[Giggsyking]

Work hard?

Even if your claim is true ( which is not because we watched Matic walk around the pitch looking pathetic in the past 12 months), but even if he works hard
no matter how hard he works, he offer very much less what a "careless Pogba" offers.
People need to understand that Pogba has been great for his teams under three other managers who rate him highly, the only one who has problem with him is the finished one.

 

[ManUtd1999]

Reading the papers and listening to the British pundits, we also start getting into seriously dodgy racial territory imo. Pogba isn't 'disciplined', or 'intelligent', or lacks 'tactical understanding'. Unlike that nice white fella next to him, who is so good at tactics that he's been a defensive midfielder as we concede 2 goals per match, and hurts us anytime we meander into the opponent's half.

This is taking the discussion way too far, and wrong in my view.

Mourinho is the manager who signed Pogba, and he's also the manager who signed Lukaku, neither of them is white. I am also old enough to remember when people here were saying "why Lukaku is not being dropped?" when he had a really bad run of games.

Bringing race into this issue doesn't help your case. Maybe, just maybe, Pogba is not the type of player that Mourinho likes?!

 

[Beachryan]

This is taking the discussion way too far, and wrong in my view.

Mourinho is the manager who signed Pogba, and he's also the manager who signed Lukaku, neither of them is white. I am also old enough to remember when people here were saying "why Lukaku is not being dropped?" when he had a really bad run of games.

Bringing race into this issue doesn't help your case. Maybe, just maybe, Pogba is not the type of player that Mourinho likes?!

I don't mean Jose at all, I mean the discussion in the UK media.

 

[MadDogg]

I don't think in all my years of watching football, which is about 4 decades, I have seen a player like Pogba that more adjustments have been made in a team to 'unlock his potential'. Formations have been tweaked for Pogba; different partners have been tried for Pogba; different roles have been given to Pogba;

And yet despite all of this, we've never put him in a similar position as he had as Juventus, and that people on here were saying that he should be used in for us. Yes we've tried many things, but most of them were quite obviously not going to work.

He has been our main playmaker since he came here. It doesn't matter what position he officially plays, at the end of the day everything runs through him because nobody else is actually good enough. That is a thing that he can do, but it's not ideal. Put somebody else in there to share that workload. It's what most of us have been wanting since he got here, and yet he hasn't had another player to bounce off yet.

It should be noted that I don't think there has been a great team in the last 25 years that has only had one playmaker who was expected to do everything for the team. That job has always been shared between two players, and increasingly over the last decade it's even more. That's what we need in there - another playmaker to share the workload of actually controlling the team around. We should really be trying Pereira in that role for now as he is probably the only one who is potentially able to do it. Whether he's good enough in the longterm I don't know.

 

[Scarecrow]

Pogba and Martial lack intelligence to play their positions? That's why both are involved in more goals than any players since they joined the club?

No, I think it's because they're the most talented attacking players at the club. Their abilities don't exclude poor decision making though.

 

[In Rainbows]

And yet despite all of this, we've never put him in a similar position as he had as Juventus, and that people on here were saying that he should be used in for us. Yes we've tried many things, but most of them were quite obviously not going to work.

He has been our main playmaker since he came here. It doesn't matter what position he officially plays, at the end of the day everything runs through him because nobody else is actually good enough. That is a thing that he can do, but it's not ideal. Put somebody else in there to share that workload. It's what most of us have been wanting since he got here, and yet he hasn't had another player to bounce off yet.

It should be noted that I don't think there has been a great team in the last 25 years that has only had one playmaker who was expected to do everything for the team. That job has always been shared between two players, and increasingly over the last decade it's even more. That's what we need in there - another playmaker to share the workload of actually controlling the team around. We should really be trying Pereira in that role for now as he is probably the only one who is potentially able to do it. Whether he's good enough in the longterm I don't know.

It's just wrong that people think United have catered to Pogba. I've never seen it. The extent of that catering is switching him positions which is hilarious.

All one has to do is look at what Pogba lacks, and then think of the ways that we've bothered to shore up those things by playing certain players with those qualities he lacks. That is what catering to Pogba is and playing Matic certainly isn't it. Neither is playing Fellaini. The closest is playing Herrera or Fred next to him.

 

[.Rossi]

He's up there with Eric for some supporters. As in, you're never allowed give him any criticism or say a bad word about him.

He's been shit! He's nowhere near the likes of Ronaldo, where you could put up with him having off days because you just knew he'd win you the match in a blink of an eye.
He's not playing well, he's dropped, it's up to him to get back in to the team, just like every other professional that's ever existed.

End of!

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

He's up there with Eric for some supporters. As in, you're never allowed give him any criticism or say a bad word about him.

He's been shit! He's nowhere near the likes of Ronaldo, where you could put up with him having off days because you just knew he'd win you the match in a blink of an eye.
He's not playing well, he's dropped, it's up to him to get back in to the team, just like every other professional that's ever existed.

End of!

Says the guy too thick to realize Matic Lingard and Lukaku play virtually automatically. Good stuff, guy.

 

[.Rossi]

Says the guy too thick to realize Matic Lingard and Lukaku play virtually automatically. Good stuff, guy.

Nice spin

 

[Kostur]

Says the guy too thick to realize Matic Lingard and Lukaku play virtually automatically. Good stuff, guy.

As in they are picked automatically by Mourinho?

Dab assistant played less minutes than Mata, Martial, Rashford, Lukaku and Pogba.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Again, criticism against Pogba is welcomed. What does my head in is that people want Pogba out of the club. You guys jump from "not performing to expectations" to "he needs to get out of the club." I want to keep our better players. If a better player is underperforming, but is still better than his teammates who are overperforming, everyone should want to keep the better player regardless of consistency and expectations.

No on the team is performing consistently well.

But this tribal bollocks is the problem. You've assumed a huge deal about me because I don't agree with your opinion.

We, I think, want the same thing (at least I hope we do!) which is for the club to do well. To that end, I would quite like our record signing to be as important a player as his obvious talent suggests he should be, but I simply don't agree with your assessment that everyone but him is to blame for the fact that he's failed to consistently hit the heights expected of him.

Now maybe all of the issues will go away if and when Mourinho goes, but we may also have to face up to the possibility that they might not as well and that quite a large part of Pogba's problems has been him letting himself down.

 

[Mcking]

He's up there with Eric for some supporters. As in, you're never allowed give him any criticism or say a bad word about him.

He's been shit! He's nowhere near the likes of Ronaldo, where you could put up with him having off days because you just knew he'd win you the match in a blink of an eye.
He's not playing well, he's dropped, it's up to him to get back in to the team, just like every other professional that's ever existed.

End of!

I could give ya some instances buddy!

 

[.Rossi]

I could give ya some instances buddy!

Instances where he's like Ronaldo?

Oh God...

 

[Mcking]

Instances where he's like Ronaldo?

Oh God...

Where he did this:

win you the match in a blink of an eye

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He's up there with Eric for some supporters. As in, you're never allowed give him any criticism or say a bad word about him.

He's been shit! He's nowhere near the likes of Ronaldo, where you could put up with him having off days because you just knew he'd win you the match in a blink of an eye.
He's not playing well, he's dropped, it's up to him to get back in to the team, just like every other professional that's ever existed.

End of!

There's a middle ground in between your reactionary post and the people you're referring to who presumably exist. He's definitely been disappointing on the whole for us keeping in mind how talented he is and the price tag. However we are also a pretty disjoint and dynsfunctional team manager by poor managers which has to be taken into account. Also, he's actually been one of our best players this season so other than Southampton this season in particular I don't have many complaints.

All in all, I'd like to see us and Pogba managed by a proper attacking Manchester United manager. At the same time, he has flaws which aren't anybody else's doing but his own. His decision making, focus issues have nothing to do with Mourinho and how he ions them out will determine where he ends up.

 

[golden_blunder]

The football has been more fluid without him that’s for sure. He’s a good player but not sure we will get the football we crave by building a team around him

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Pogba has been managed terribly?

Goodness me, Pogba sure needs a babysitter at this rate.

I am all for blaming Jose for everything he has done wrong but come on, Pogba needs to take responsibility at some point in time. I don't think in all my years of watching football, which is about 4 decades, I have seen a player like Pogba that more adjustments have been made in a team to 'unlock his potential'. Formations have been tweaked for Pogba; different partners have been tried for Pogba; different roles have been given to Pogba; the captain's arm band has been tried. Mourinho has praised him. Mourinho has criticized him. Mourinho has taken on ex-United players for him. Etc. I can go on and on.

Anyone who denies Pogba's incredible talent, does not know football. His talent is unbelievable but Pogba is inconsistent. In one game, he is untouchable, in the next, he plays like he doesn't care. That is down to him, not to any manager.

So please explain to me his performances at Juventus? Better managed? OR just dumb luck...

 

[Steerpike]

Anytime I think the board aren't complete idiots - just very slow to action - I get that nagging feeling that I'm just wrong. Good examples include letting LVG sell Rafael, Hernandez and Nani leave for peanuts, and of course the Fellaini 4m.

But choosing Jose over Pogba would be their new crowning achievement. One of them is approaching his prime, just won the premier footballing competition in the world, is marketable and cost us almost 100m. The other is toxic, won't have won a major trophy for 4 years and could only be marketable if a gofundme was started to remove him.

Purely from a business perspective, the board should be protecting the more impactful (in a good way) asset.

Reading the papers and listening to the British pundits, we also start getting into seriously dodgy racial territory imo. Pogba isn't 'disciplined', or 'intelligent', or lacks 'tactical understanding'. Unlike that nice white fella next to him, who is so good at tactics that he's been a defensive midfielder as we concede 2 goals per match, and hurts us anytime we meander into the opponent's half.

If Pogba leaves United, he will be awesome, for at least another 4/5 years. If Jose leaves United, he'll be out of football until the next time the Portugal team falters.

Discipline within a squad is based on the premise that the manager is in charge, that he picks the team and decides upon the tactics. That has always been the case, and most likely always will be. The moment there is any suggestion that a player is more important than the manager, or that a player is somehow entitled to sulk and down tools if he doesn't like what he's being asked to do for the team, that discipline is destroyed and results will reflect that.

The information emanating from Old Trafford regarding the relationship between Mourinho and Pogba is, at best, sketchy. However the evidence based on selections and performances is that Mourinho no longer trusts Pogba to carry out his duties on the pitch, and it has been Pogba's performances which have led to that situation. Arguing that it is Mourinho's fault for adopting the wrong tactics, or picking the wrong players to work alongside Pogba, just ignores the fundamental point that selection and tactics are the manager's prerogative, and the manager (and the fans, and the other players in the team) have every right to expect maximum effort and commitment from everyone in the side. Any other arrangement would be anarchy (what happens if Mourinho is sacked, and Pogba takes issue with the next manager's set up? ... do we keep shedding managers just to keep him happy?).

When Mourinho signed Pogba, I'm sure he had a vision of how he would fit into the side, and I imagine that would have been shared with Pogba in the course of the negotiations leading up to his signature. To argue that Mourinho knew what he was getting, and should therefore be adapting his tactics to suit Pogba seems to me to ignore the point that Pogba too would have known what was going to be expected of him, and presumably thought his game was up to it.

I'm no fan of Mourinho, and would be delighted if he was replaced in short order (there are aspects of his behaviour I find intolerable, and I think he may be using tactics that are past their sell-by date). Nevertheless that does not give any of the players the right to metaphorically down tools. If it comes to a clash of heads between a player and the manager there should only ever be one winner.

I believe Pogba will be sold, probably to a club in one of the southern European leagues, and I believe he is likely to prosper. That does not mean that it would be wrong to sell him as I seriously doubt he will ever prosper at our club, or even in our league.

The 'racial' comment is seriously wide of the mark. There are many people posting on here who don't think much of Pogba's performances but are enthusiastic about the contributions of players like Rashford, or would like to see Fred get more game time. Is your 'nice white fella' Matic? If so, he gets even more stick than Pogba on here.

 

[Stadjer]

As in they are picked automatically by Mourinho?

Dab assistant played less minutes than Mata, Martial, Rashford, Lukaku and Pogba.

He had an injury... since he is fit he does play a lot of matches which is strange because he isnt exactly the most talented player. Pogba for example could have played in the match against Fulham and i am pretty sure he wouldnt have been worse.

 

[Litch]

I think you have to be careful what we wish for. Transferring players is getting more and more complex especially the likes of Pogba and whilst there will a list of teams welcome to take him, it will be difficult to replace his potential. Transfer windows are as much about fighting to keep your best players than buying them. Irrespective of whether they are regularly playing for Real, Barca, Bayern, Juve etc. they aren't selling. It's strange as Jose says it's impossible to say go to Spurs and buy their best players but the irony is our best players are. DDG, Martial and Pogs can be bought for the right money in the near future at this rate.

 

[Kostur]

He had an injury... since he is fit he does play a lot of matches which is strange because he isnt exactly the most talented player. Pogba for example could have played in the match against Fulham and i am pretty sure he wouldnt have been worse.

He was injured for what, a month? Pogba was dropped for a reason but the amount of minutes played by dab assistant in comparison with others still makes the 'picked automatically' try-at-an-argument invalid.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

@Steerpike

We can complain about a players discipline when the managers discipline is good.

A manager who is creating a war within the club from day 1 isn't the right man to judge discipline of a player.

If SAF said Pogba should go then no one would blink an eye. If Pep who is well disciplined & promotes a team oriented game said that the way pogba plays and acts is individual then no one would blink an eye - you see how he got rid of that individual Yaya toure?

If klopp - a manager who builds a family like approach at his clubs; appreciating his best players as well as his squad based players - if he said that pogba was standing out like a sore thumb then no one would blink an eye.

However if its Jose - who himself stands out like a sore thumb, likes to look like the main and only reason we do well, blames the players when we don't do well, has created a team that plays tactics individually rather than a well drilled team - you can't take his word for anything when he targets players like martial or pogba for caring only for themselves aftwerwards or that they are a virus that makes other players worse or that they have mental issues.

He is almost describing himself - that is not a coincidence.

 

[MDFC Manager]

The football has been more fluid without him that’s for sure.

Strange, because until this season, it was the other way round. Both the performances and results without him were awful.

It's only this season, and only about 3 halves of football, has the team done better in his absence. 2 halves of those were against an awful, bottom placed Fulham team.

 

[MDFC Manager]

@Steerpike

We can complain about a players discipline when the managers discipline is good.

A manager who is creating a war within the club from day 1 isn't the right man to judge discipline of a player.

If SAF said Pogba should go then no one would blink an eye. If Pep who is well disciplined & promotes a team oriented game said that the way pogba plays and acts is individual then no one would blink an eye - you see how he got rid of that individual Yaya toure?

If klopp - a manager who builds a family like approach at his clubs; appreciating his best players as well as his squad based players - if he said that pogba was standing out like a sore thumb then no one would blink an eye.

However if its Jose - who himself stands out like a sore thumb, likes to look like the main and only reason we do well, blames the players when we don't do well, has created a team that plays tactics individually rather than a well drilled team - you can't take his word for anything when he targets players like martial or pogba for caring only for themselves aftwerwards or that they are a virus that makes other players worse or that they have mental issues.

He is almost describing himself - that is not a coincidence.

Wow, fantastic post, with the comparisons of other managers.

 

[Litch]

@Steerpike

We can complain about a players discipline when the managers discipline is good.

A manager who is creating a war within the club from day 1 isn't the right man to judge discipline of a player.

If SAF said Pogba should go then no one would blink an eye. If Pep who is well disciplined & promotes a team oriented game said that the way pogba plays and acts is individual then no one would blink an eye - you see how he got rid of that individual Yaya toure?

If klopp - a manager who builds a family like approach at his clubs; appreciating his best players as well as his squad based players - if he said that pogba was standing out like a sore thumb then no one would blink an eye.

However if its Jose - who himself stands out like a sore thumb, likes to look like the main and only reason we do well, blames the players when we don't do well, has created a team that plays tactics individually rather than a well drilled team - you can't take his word for anything when he targets players like martial or pogba for caring only for themselves aftwerwards or that they are a virus that makes other players worse or that they have mental issues.

He is almost describing himself - that is not a coincidence.

Agree. Also even if they have to sell a player because of 'issues', they aren't making these public as other teams will immediately respond with lower bids accordingly. Always better for those teams to buy players that the manager wants to get rid of rather than the opposite....Utd is started to feel like a fire sale.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Agree. Also even if they have to sell a player because of 'issues', they aren't making these public as other teams will immediately respond with lower bids accordingly.

That's because other managers are actually loyal to their jobs and employers, unlike this turd who only wants to burn everything down and run away with his severance package. Shameless human being.

 

[roonster09]

There's a time and place. You can't always look to create whenever you get the ball. Look at City, for instance, they don't just receive the ball in midfield and look to create a goal scoring opportunity. It's all calculated - of course, Pep has had a huge impact in this. Like I mentioned before, this could be an issue for Jose to sort out and he hasn't but you'd expect a professional footballer to know when hes right or wrong.

I got my username because I defended di Maria when he played in a similar way to Pogba, Rashford and Martial and no excuses were afforded for him. Funny how things change.

Funny you cite City example here where players don't even have to do something special considering how many options player in possession have and how good Pep system is.

Funny how you somehow brought Di Maria into this discussion when Pogba and Martial are miles better than Di Maria for ManUtd. He wasn't just poor, he was atrocious.

 

[Steerpike]

@Steerpike

We can complain about a players discipline when the managers discipline is good.

A manager who is creating a war within the club from day 1 isn't the right man to judge discipline of a player.

If SAF said Pogba should go then no one would blink an eye. If Pep who is well disciplined & promotes a team oriented game said that the way pogba plays and acts is individual then no one would blink an eye - you see how he got rid of that individual Yaya toure?

If klopp - a manager who builds a family like approach at his clubs; appreciating his best players as well as his squad based players - if he said that pogba was standing out like a sore thumb then no one would blink an eye.

However if its Jose - who himself stands out like a sore thumb, likes to look like the main and only reason we do well, blames the players when we don't do well, has created a team that plays tactics individually rather than a well drilled team - you can't take his word for anything when he targets players like martial or pogba for caring only for themselves aftwerwards or that they are a virus that makes other players worse or that they have mental issues.

He is almost describing himself - that is not a coincidence.

I've already said I don't like Mourinho, and would be very happy to see him replaced. However the basic premise that the manager is in charge still holds true, and players simply have to accept that or, like Pogba, find themselves out of the team (and quite possibly out of the club).

The manager reports to the board, either directly or indirectly, and they can take steps to remove him if he isn't doing a satisfactory job. So there's a simple hierarchy, and it's one that everybody at the club should understand.

 

[roonster09]

Both have positioning issues, neither press, Martial doesn't move off the ball enough, Pogbas need to constantly take risks in our half are not always needed - Scholes, himself, stated how he needs to keep it simple more often than not, Pogba constantly stropping when he loses the ball. All players have issues, no doubt, but these two are meant to be the most talented at the club thus, in order to be the best, they have to make as few mistakes as possible.

Less risks = less mistakes. It's that simple, especially when playing for Jose. Considering how many goals are scored and assisted because of Pogba, Martial it's obvious risk well worth.

Saying sometimes they make wrong decision is something, calling them not intelligent is just wrong, especially Pogba who has achieved so much in his short career already.

 

[Devil may care]

The agenda against Pogba being filtered through the media is vile and destructive to our future success IMO.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

@MDFC Manager @Litch

Have a look at my post on the Jose poll thread - I talk about how Jose's tactics ends up covering players with one individual role (Lukaku solely playing as a target man, Matic focusing purely on defensive midfield duty, felliani getting either a clear defensive duty or an attacking duty during the game) - however it ends up singling out players who have to carry out multiple roles.

Martial is our attacker - but also had a significant defensive duty last season; for that he got targeted. Pogba is our main creative midfielder; our most attacking midfielder we have - yet his role is not to concentrate on that purely & is being targeted due to his lack of defensive aspect to his game.

Clearest point is with de bryune - under Pep he is given a clear attacking role in the team which is to be rinsed & repeated. What happened under Jose? De bryune never was the traditional CAM that Jose would want so pushed him out to the RM where he was given both an attacking & defensive role - rather than having a single gameplan to focus on.

The players that do well under Jose have a very solid, single role to fill. This covers players who are purely defensive, purely attacking, purely meant to keep width etc. Players that are made to do more than one, players made to do defensive work as well as attacking work, players thst are made to cut in and keep wide etc - tend to fail because none are carried to 100%.

 

[Litch]

I've already said I don't like Mourinho, and would be very happy to see him replaced. However the basic premise that the manager is in charge still holds true, and players simply have to accept that or, like Pogba, find themselves out of the team (and quite possibly out of the club).

The manager reports to the board, either directly or indirectly, and they can take steps to remove him if he isn't doing a satisfactory job. So there's a simple hierarchy, and it's one that everybody at the club should understand.

I think we all know the hierarchy of management, it's the misplace of his position is what I'm questioning. If you have assets you either ensure that they are used to benefit the club or you sell them to achieve the maximum amount for them. What Jose is doing is having a Porsche yet telling everyone it's driving like it's a Ford Focus.

 

[Rajma]

The agenda against Pogba being filtered through the media is vile and destructive to our future success IMO.

Yep, flair players will think twice now before joining us, really sad to see how one toxic manager can harm the club so much.