[In Rainbows]

There's something called the whole unit being bigger than the sums of their part. You can have a midfielder with double figures but everyone else struggling thanks to him being a passenger off the ball, and you can have a midfield that looks average on paper but thanks to them doing a proper midfield job and supporting them with a good attacking unit, the team ranks more results than the first one with loads of goals and assists. Funny enough, we used to be like that with SAF and you can look at how Liverpool improved after selling Coutinho even though their team now lacks a creator midfield, they look better, more balanced, and bigger than the sum of their players.

Pogba is a midfielder. I want to see a proper midfielder job, that's all.

There is no evidence that we're better without him and there is no evidence we would be better without him. The whole unit being better than the sum of their parts starts and ends with Mourinho.

What do Pogba's midfield partners excel at btw? I keep seeing the finger pointed at Pogba as if he's what's wrong with our midfield and I want evidence that shows he's what's wrong. This is the minimum that needs to be presented in the argument for wanting to get rid of him.

I don't particularly need Pogba to be this high energy guy btw. As long as the midfield can balance each other out to provide everything I'm satisfied with that midfield. For example, Kante is not good at distributing the ball and he can't attack all that well. But he does specialize in destroying opposition attacks. When Pogba is next to him, he hides Pogba's deficiency and Pogba hides his deficiencies. There are different ways of accomplishing this. We currently have Pogba. Why not try and target other midfielders who can better fulfill what the United midfield lacks? If United lack energy in midfield let's target someone who provides that. Do we lack someone to break up attacks much better than Matic? Let's target that player. Not everyone needs to be Roy Keane and not everyone needs to be Scholes.

I feel like you guys are being too rigid in what a midfielder needs to be as opposed to looking at the midfield as a whole and how it functions as a unit. Juve had the best midfield in the world with Pogba in it. Why didn't Juve need Pogba to be what you guys rigidly want a midfielder to be? Because they understood the group's production is what matters.

 

[Mr PG]

Mourinho is probably harder on Pogba than Matic because he’s trying eccentric dribbles and losing the ball(see Southampton) even when he’s struggling instead of following instructions.
It’s one thing to play to your natural ability it’s another to put 80% effort.

 

[el3mel]

There is no evidence that we're better without him and there is no evidence we would be better without him. The whole unit being better than the sum of their parts starts and ends with Mourinho.

What do Pogba's midfield partners excel at btw? I keep seeing the finger pointed at Pogba as if he's what's wrong with our midfield and I want evidence that shows he's what's wrong. This is the minimum that needs to be presented in the argument for wanting to get rid of him.

I don't particularly need Pogba to be this high energy guy btw. As long as the midfield can balance each other out to provide everything I'm satisfied with that midfield. For example, Kante is not good at distributing the ball and he can't attack all that well. But he does specialize in destroying opposition attacks. When Pogba is next to him, he hides Pogba's deficiency and Pogba hides his deficiencies.

Well, yes it starts and ends with the manager, and our manager deserves fully blame for the team still being a mess 2.5 years in his tenure.

I don't just want a high energy Pogba. I want a proper midfield job. I don't get what's so hard in this to ask Pogba to do ? Is it hard to press the opponent who cuts the ball from you or does a job when the opposition has the ball ? What's so hard in this ? I'm not asking him to ranks tackles like Kante, I'm asking for a midfielder job. He's a CM after all.

 

[In Rainbows]

Well, yes it starts and ends with the manager, and our manager deserves fully blame for the team still being a mess 2.5 years in his tenure.

I don't just want a high energy Pogba. I want a proper midfield job. I don't get what's so hard in this to ask Pogba to do ? Is it hard to press the opponent who cuts the ball from you or does a job when the opposition has the ball ? What's so hard in this ? I'm not asking him to ranks tackles like Kante, I'm asking for a midfielder job. He's a CM after all.

There's a difference between wanting that out of Pogba, and wanting to get rid of him completely.

I care more about the entire midfield unit. Pogba to me is going to bring world class attacking ability from a midfielder. Due to this, I feel like we don't particularly need our next midfielder to provide all that much in attack so long as they cover up Pogba's deficiencies. Do you guys remember what our midfield was like before Pogba? Scholes was pissed off at how scared United players were to take risks. We were getting 0 creation from our midfield. Pogba being at United takes that entire problem away. Now we need a metronome passer and a high energy guy (Herrera/Fred).

Instead of looking at Pogba for what he is, and what he solves in this midfield puzzle going forward, you guys want rid completely because you're so rigid. Like I mentioned in my last post, Juve had the best midfield in the world with Pogba. Pogba is not the problem. Get other players that compliment him and don't worry about the attacking portion of the midfield's job anymore. Pogba solved that.

 

[Bwuk]

Move back to the Herrera - Pogba pivot. It’s the best midfield we’ve had since Jose got here.

 

[K2K]

Once upon a time there was a guy called Martial who was lazy and not good enough (I myself was guilty of thinking this), he was slated by Jose and a certain amount of fans turned against him. Roll on the following season and he's by far our best attacker and has shown that he never should have been dropped. Pogba has been our best player in a lot of games this season. He has outperformed Matic for 99% of the season and is a far more talented player to boot. How about Jose actually drops the players that have been the worst performing this year.

Can anyone actually say that Pogba has been worse than Matic, Lukaku and Lingard so far this season? Also why not drop him without bashing him publicly so much? Matic has looked better with Herrera next to him but why haven't we seen Herrera next to Pogba while Matic has been stinking the place up for so long?

Very good point.

Pogba has actually performed well for the majority of this season. Yes, he had a poor performance last week. But Matic and Lukaku have been dire for most of this season. It's just a manager playing favourites. Jose did this at Chelsea too with his weird obsession with Ivanovic. May can't come soon enough.

 

[el3mel]

There's a difference between wanting that out of Pogba, and wanting to get rid of him completely.

I care more about the entire midfield unit. Pogba to me is going to bring world class attacking ability from a midfielder. Due to this, I feel like we don't particularly need our next midfielder to provide all that much in attack so long as they cover up Pogba's deficiencies. Do you guys remember what our midfield was like before Pogba? Scholes was pissed off at how scared United players were to take risks. We were getting 0 creation from our midfield. Pogba being at United takes that entire problem away. Now we need a metronome passer and a high energy guy (Herrera/Fred).

Instead of looking at Pogba for what he is, and what he solves in this midfield puzzle going forward, you guys want rid completely because you're so rigid. Like I mentioned in my last post, Juve had the best midfield in the world with Pogba. Pogba is not the problem. Get other players that compliment him and don't worry about the attacking portion of the midfield's job anymore. Pogba solved that.

You think that if he starts to perform like a proper midfielder anyone will want him gone then ?

 

[Dante]

What performance are people talking about? The faces he was making on the bench?

 

[K2K]

Both need to go. Mourinho picked him and you could clearly see against Southampton his head was up his ass. That performance was a disgrace to the supporters. Virus or not he doesnt deserve to be starting for us right now. Other players like Herrera have come in and put in a better shift than him

We as fans are obsessed with players who can put a shift in. We don't need that right now. We need quality.

If Pogba had failed for us consistently under a number of managers I would totally get the calls to sell him..

But honestly this is a player that has shown that he has the quality. I love someone like a Fellaini with all that heart. But we need talent. And we need to get the best out of it now.

 

[CallyRed]

Was great today, really took to the role of sub.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

It has been obvious for months now. His undroppable status may finally be lifting, if the team can put in better performances and Pogba can match the intenstiy and re-enter the team he will be a much better player for it. I've said it before he's now at a crossroads in his career and his taking the piss has been called out. Where he goes from here will define him, he needs to show that he can play at a higher intensity and fit into this current setup.

We've tired that though, and it didn't work either.
This is Pogba defence 101; his best position is always the one he is not playing in no matter how long has been spent arguing that he should be playing in the position he is now in.
Left of a midfield three, double pivot or number 10, it doesn't matter. The problem is Pogba and he needs to sort it out.

This is in my opinion has become the elephant in the room situation now. These last two performances have shown the way forward on how we have to play and we can't just keep trying to drop Pogba in the middle of it if he wants to fake press and fake hustle. The four today Herrera/Lingard/Mata/Rashford pressed as unit and it rarely broke down and we need to build on that. It has allowed Matic to play better and allowed Lukaku to be much less isolated up front when receiving the ball from a longer range of pass.

The way we played against Arsenal and today is a much better way that I want to see the team playing personally. Whether Mourinho stumbled onto it by accident (purely but the absolutely tame way in which he dropped Pogba) or I'd be more inclined to think that this is the way he wants to play and it is with the right mentality.

Paul Pogba's problem at the moment as I stated before; is Paul Pogba.

 

[Trophy Room]

Lets see if this tough love strategy works.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

It has been obvious for months now. His undroppable status may finally be lifting, if the team can put in better performances and Pogba can match the intenstiy and re-enter the team he will be a much better player for it. I've said it before he's now at a crossroads in his career and his taking the piss has been called out. Where he goes from here will define him, he needs to show that he can play at a higher intensity and fit into this current setup.



This is in my opinion has become the elephant in the room situation now. These last two performances have shown the way forward on how we have to play and we can't just keep trying to drop Pogba in the middle of it if he wants to fake press and fake hustle. The four today Herrera/Lingard/Mata/Rashford pressed as unit and it rarely broke down and we need to build on that. It has allowed Matic to play better and allowed Lukaku to be much less isolated up front when receiving the ball from a longer range of pass.

The way we played against Arsenal and today is a much better way that I want to see the team playing personally. Whether Mourinho stumbled onto it by accident (purely but the absolutely tame way in which he dropped Pogba) or I'd be more inclined to think that this is the way he wants to play and it is with the right mentality.

Paul Pogba's problem at the moment as I stated before; is Paul Pogba.

Or just hear me out...Paul Pogba was literally asking the manager to play like we did today, which is a rarity. Oh but check that out he was right. Without naming names I would imagine Paul was asking to play with Fred/Herrera/Mata/Dalot and on the front foot instead of Matic/Fellaini/McTominay/Young and resorting to hoof ball.

 

[Darius_MUFC1991]

Bingo . I can see the likes of McTominay, Fellaini starting as well and if we lose they'll direct their anger at Pogba

Glad someone else has noticed this. Did this with Martial earlier this season as well, playing the two of them with 8 outfield cones. I have to congratulate Mourinho, his manipulation skills are unlike anything I have seen in football.

 

[Renegade]

His annoying and I wouldn’t mind if he goes but his been made to be a scapegoat by Jose.

Just like his buddy Andreas after the Brighton game.

 

[Janson]

The tactics today would have suited Pogba down to the ground. Jose was on the touchline forcing the back four past the halfway line into Fulhams half. This meant we squeezed them high in their half and won the ball back consistently in the first half. I've never seen Jose do this before, not forcing the team up the pitch. He could've done it against many teams we've played at home this season.

I've a feeling Jose did this for two reasons :-

1. Because Fulham are awful
2. To give the impression we are better without Pogba and that Pogba needs to adapt to play like the rest of the team, the reality being the rest of the team don't play like that every week.

So the reason why we have been so bad this season is because we didn't play with a high line?

That means Mourinho used the wrong tactics on purpose all along to sabotage us/Pogba and now he's using a better system just to show people that we're better without Pogba.

It's all a conspiracy against Pogba.

 

[AR87]

Or just hear me out...Paul Pogba was literally asking the manager to play like we did today, which is a rarity. Oh but check that out he was right. Without naming names I would imagine Paul was asking to play with Fred/Herrera/Mata/Dalot and on the front foot instead of Matic/Fellaini/McTominay/Young and resorting to hoof ball.

That doesn't excuse whatever that "performance" against Southampton was. I sympathize with alot of our players, but the difference between say Pogba and Lukaku is I don't ever watch and think Lukaku isn't trying or couldn't be bothered, but rather that he's just a bit shit. Pogba's quality and talent is so far and beyond any other outfield player we have that when he performs as he did against Southampton it can be for no other reason other than that he simply couldn't be bothered.

Whatever. I hope he gets going against Valencia in a positive setup and can carry it forward for the rest of the season. United need Pogba firing to accomplish anything worth a damn this season.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Jose lasts 3 years at max. Does some bad selling during that time. Also manages to usually target one of the best players at the club for always having a mentality issue - nothing different. Be it martial, Hazard, Pogba, De Bryune - the fact is that only an idit would sell pogba on the basis of what rubbish comes out of Jose's dentures.

 

[Janson]

Glad someone else has noticed this. Did this with Martial earlier this season as well, playing the two of them with 8 outfield cones. I have to congratulate Mourinho, his manipulation skills are unlike anything I have seen in football.

Yeah it's all a conspiracy against Pogba and Martial, to make them look bad. They can never in any way be responsible for their own performances.

 

[Canagel]

Glad someone else has noticed this. Did this with Martial earlier this season as well, playing the two of them with 8 outfield cones. I have to congratulate Mourinho, his manipulation skills are unlike anything I have seen in football.

Yep. We were waiting ages for Martial to get an opportunity (he even took aim at the fans for asking Martial to play over Sanchez even though Sanchez had been poor for a number of games) and when he did play finally play him it was the worst team selection. It was ridiculous actually because every man and his dog could see it was terrible line up and we weren't going to achieve the high pressing people claim Pogba can't do yet we still went with it and they both got subbed off by Jose to make them the scapegoats and shift the attention away from the abysmal team performance and team selection.

 

[Jeppers7]

So the reason why we have been so bad this season is because we didn't play with a high line?

That means Mourinho used the wrong tactics on purpose all along to sabotage us/Pogba and now he's using a better system just to show people that we're better without Pogba.

It's all a conspiracy against Pogba.

You think we’ve played with a high line all season
? Or you think the reason we’ve been shit is Pogba ?

 

[breakout67]

I have no idea where this notion came from that it's alright to sacrifice work rate for quality or vice versa. Or this idea that being hard working is a knock on a player. Top players have both. Maybe our mediocrity has led fans to worship players that show a modicum of talent. You will not find one top midfielder on the planet that is lacking in work rate. These type of midfielders are very rare (Pirlo in his 30s come to mind, but he did plenty of work in his younger days).

When looking at who fits the high pressing style you want players that run themselves dead during games. Even in the 85th minute they bust a guy to make attacking runs and to win the ball back when defending. As Liverpool have shown, you don't need creative midfielders in this type of setup because you are winning the ball back in dangerous positions where the opposing defence is not set.

The midfielders that fit this criteria are Herrera and Fred, with Pereira being a potential candidate. When it comes to quality on the ball, I'd say both Fred and Pereira have shown that they have some quality about them when passing forward. The forward line is also very important, meaning Lukaku and Martial don't make it due to being piss poor pressers of the ball that don't make enough attacking runs.

I would say Pogba falls well short of the pressing requirements, and you can't carry someone when it comes to pressing, you have to have everyone committed because one person not doing their job ruins a press. We have seen Pogba lose the ball, then sulk on the ground or complain to the ref while the opponent counter attacks enough times to know that his pressing is not up to snuff.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

So the reason why we have been so bad this season is because we didn't play with a high line?

That means Mourinho used the wrong tactics on purpose all along to sabotage us/Pogba and now he's using a better system just to show people that we're better without Pogba.

It's all a conspiracy against Pogba.

No hahahahaha. The reason is the manager is absolute shit. Hahahahaha. He’s finally done what a 24 year old player told him to do, which embarrassed the hell out of him, and it’s worked. Hahahahaha.

I have no idea where this notion came from that it's alright to sacrifice work rate for quality or vice versa. Or this idea that being hard working is a knock on a player. Top players have both. Maybe our mediocrity has led fans to worship players that show a modicum of talent. You will not find one top midfielder on the planet that is lacking in work rate. These type of midfielders are very rare (Pirlo in his 30s come to mind, but he did plenty of work in his younger days).

When looking at who fits the high pressing style you want players that run themselves dead during games. Even in the 85th minute they bust a guy to make attacking runs and to win the ball back when defending. As Liverpool have shown, you don't need creative midfielders in this type of setup because you are winning the ball back in dangerous positions where the opposing defence is not set.

The midfielders that fit this criteria are Herrera and Fred, with Pereira being a potential candidate. When it comes to quality on the ball, I'd say both Fred and Pereira have shown that they have some quality about them when passing forward. The forward line is also very important, meaning Lukaku and Martial don't make it due to being piss poor pressers of the ball that don't make enough attacking runs.

I would say Pogba falls well short of the pressing requirements, and you can't carry someone when it comes to pressing, you have to have everyone committed because one person not doing their job ruins a press. We have seen Pogba lose the ball, then sulk on the ground or complain to the ref while the opponent counter attacks enough times to know that his pressing is not up to snuff.

couple things here...1) what about Mourinho’s past or present setups make you think we’ve been a pressing side or that he’s been trying to move in that direction? 2) boy it’d be fun to take bets on how quickly Manchester would run Leo Messi out of town.

 

[el3mel]

couple things here...1) what about Mourinho’s past or present setups make you think we’ve been a pressing side or that he’s been trying to move in that direction? 2) boy it’d be fun to take bets on how quickly Manchester would run Leo Messi out of town.

Even Messi runs his socks off for his team. Only here you will see talks about being totally fine not working hard but putting other players to cover for you.

Enjoy 15 minutes of Messi pressing everywhere on the pitch :

 

[In Rainbows]

You think that if he starts to perform like a proper midfielder anyone will want him gone then ?

No, but that's besides the point. The point is that it doesn't matter if he does if our midfield production does not lose out from his deficiencies.

 

[el3mel]

No, but that's besides the point. The point is that it doesn't matter if he does if our midfield production does not lose out from his deficiencies.

Again, I don't find it that much to ask him to track back runners and press anyone who cuts the ball from him. I won't label these "deficiencies". They are basic stuff done by any midfielder and Pogba must do it regardless of who is playing beside him and in whatever formation. I'm not saying he should go full Kante, but for him to do the basic midfield stuff when you don't have the ball, something that Pogba is struggling with to understand so far.

 

[kr0nix]

Again, I don't find it that much to ask him to track back runners and press anyone who cuts the ball from him. I won't label these "deficiencies". They are basic stuff done by any midfielder and Pogba must do it regardless of who is playing beside him and in whatever formation. I'm not saying he should go full Kante, but for him to do the basic midfield stuff when you don't have the ball, something that Pogba is struggling with to understand so far.

I can imagine that if someone like Zidane came in and asked him to do it he would. Granted that doesn't reflect particularly well on him, but I think his talent befits another chance under a different manager.

 

[BrianMcClair'sBarnet]

I'm so undecided on Pogba.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

Just why did it have to be pogba that Jo's going to pick on?

Couldn't he have picked that completely lacklustre forward who has one of the worst natural abilities of playing football whilst also not trying hard enough in every game?

Thing is that Lukaku is not targeted because he isn't important to United in comparison to Pogba.

Switch that around & Lukaku is more important to Jose than Pogba.

That's ultimately because Pogba is physically someone who matches Jose's threshold - but it's ultimately does not play football in a way that utilises his strength & height.


Players with no strength, height, aggression -= players who don't give a shyte.

That's why flair players struggle & are sent out by Jose consistently.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Once upon a time there was a guy called Martial who was lazy and not good enough (I myself was guilty of thinking this), he was slated by Jose and a certain amount of fans turned against him. Roll on the following season and he's by far our best attacker and has shown that he never should have been dropped. Pogba has been our best player in a lot of games this season. He has outperformed Matic for 99% of the season and is a far more talented player to boot. How about Jose actually drops the players that have been the worst performing this year.

Can anyone actually say that Pogba has been worse than Matic, Lukaku and Lingard so far this season? Also why not drop him without bashing him publicly so much? Matic has looked better with Herrera next to him but why haven't we seen Herrera next to Pogba while Matic has been stinking the place up for so long?

It’s so messed up isn’t it. Jose has these guys eating out the palm of his hand. Pogba made 1 poor game and that’s it, cast aside.

Jokers in this thread acting like we wouldn’t have stuffed Fulham today if Pogba was in the team If he was it would have been 5.

It’s funny how Jose seems to become more motivated when either under pressure from the press or when destroying a star player. Weird man.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

How's pereira's mentality @el3mel?

Or is it just the fact he isn't big, strong and playing aggressive enough to the point he extends that lack of aggression towards a lack of interest or mental ability to play that tough of a game.

Pereira is luck that he only had one darn game & wasnt a regular starter like martial & Pogba - due to that he remains under the bed sheet acting like he never existed.

Utter rubbish of a man.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Or just hear me out...Paul Pogba was literally asking the manager to play like we did today, which is a rarity. Oh but check that out he was right. Without naming names I would imagine Paul was asking to play with Fred/Herrera/Mata/Dalot and on the front foot instead of Matic/Fellaini/McTominay/Young and resorting to hoof ball.

Don't really care who Paul asks to play with. He'll be sat firmly on the pine if he wants us to play hard press and with some bollocks like we did today.

 

[roonster09]

I have no idea where this notion came from that it's alright to sacrifice work rate for quality or vice versa. Or this idea that being hard working is a knock on a player. Top players have both. Maybe our mediocrity has led fans to worship players that show a modicum of talent. You will not find one top midfielder on the planet that is lacking in work rate. These type of midfielders are very rare (Pirlo in his 30s come to mind, but he did plenty of work in his younger days).

Pogba doesn't work hard is also myth, just because he is defensively weak doesn't mean he doesn't work hard.

Even going by distance covered stats in CL, Pogba covers 10.5Kms per 90 mins, Matic 11.5. That's hardly a big difference.

There are so many stats posted which showed Pogba featuring in defensive, attacking, possession stats and top 5 in every 3 categories and he was the only player to feature in all 3.

From last month or 2 back.

What is interesting here is not so much the statistics but the categories themselves. Let us consider the idea of a modern-day, three-man midfield.

You might have your defensive midfielder, the likes of Mo Diame or Wilfred Ndidi who sit deep, fight for the ball and feature in the duels category. You would have your linking midfielder who sees a lot of the ball, like James Milner, Granit Xhaka or Jorginho, prominent in the passing category. And then an attacking midfielder like Christian Eriksen and Gylfi Sigurdsson who will push on, join in with attacks and try to score goals.

Three different statistics reflect three different types of player and yet Pogba features prominently in all three categories. Indeed no other player even features in two categories.

Also you guys should read @Brwned post instead of just shouting "he is lazy, la la la" nonsense.

That's definitely part of it, but I think there's a particularly British idea of what constitutes "hard work" in football which exacerbates that for Pogba. Running towards your own goal is lauded as a heroic effort, running forward towards the opposition goal is ignored entirely. That feeds into all sorts of assessments about the level of commitment, determination, selflessness, effort etc. that plays a huge role in shaping people's views on footballers over here. So even if he contributes a lot outside of that, the frustration that comes from Pogba's perceived laziness just make him a constant target. If only he put in more effort...

The very obvious reality is that Pogba runs more than most players, but he gets criticised for not running enough because of the kind of runs he makes and the ones he chooses not to. The fact he's the only player in the team consistently making lung-busting runs to support Lukaku right up until the 90th minute is simply overlooked. No-one ever criticises Matic for not running forward enough, despite the fact he opts to take a breather and hang back in almost exactly the same way with the same kind of frequency. He does it in a different part of the pitch and his body language is different, but that hardly matters. Running is running, a lot of the time it's selfless and it's always mentally and physically draining.

People associate it with a sense of ego and teamwork but that doesn't hold up to much scrutiny. Running up to support Lukaku in the 90th minute is every bit as important to holding onto the lead as sitting deep is. It is not an ego-driven surge but an essential team contribution. The fact he gives us that outlet to allow the team to re-group is incredibly valuable, and the fact he has the energy levels and sheer explosiveness to actually provide a threat on top of that is invaluable. It's something that Pellegrini touched on a while back:



Distance covered stats aren't really available in the public domain but FIFA and UEFA show some of them for their major events. If you look at the distance covered stats averaged over the course of the World Cup for the finalists' four main centre mids - Modric, Pogba, Rakitic and Kante - you can see they're in the same ballpark. Yet only one of them is frequently described as lazy, two of them are described as unusually hardworking playmakers, and one is described as almost superhuman.

Modric: 9.4km
Pogba: 9.7km
Rakitic: 10.2km
Kante: 10.4km

(distance covered per 90 mins)

The point is not that Pogba runs more than Modric. The fact Modric played another 150 minutes in a short space of time likely brought down that overall average, and on the whole he probably runs more. The point is they are not that far apart in the numbers, but they're worlds apart in the descriptions. Pogba runs less but makes longer, more explosive runs more frequently. The nature of that style of running and the role he occupies as a result of that makes it entirely expected that he takes breathers high up the pitch more often. It's not about laziness.

The fact that even Lukaku chased back a fullback towards the end of the game should not be in any way shocking. He doesn't have to make the draining runs minute by minute that Pogba does because he's saving his energy for the explosive runs, so he should be expected to do that every now and then. In the same way he shouldn't be expected to do it all the time, because that wouldn't be the most valuable use of the energy he has. His average was 7.8km in the World Cup, for what it's worth. That isn't something that is purely down to where he plays - e.g. Kane's was 9.9km, Giroud's was 9.3km - nor is it a measurement of effort. It's just a reflection of the kind of running they do. Explosive running like Lukaku's is far more draining than Kane's or Giroud's, and repeated long bursts at speed like Pogba (or Toure) is more draining than Matic or Fellaini's constant movement at a much steadier pace.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

My point is rather that in defence of Pogba most of his fans throw out the idea that he has to play in one very specific position in order to perform and that the team should be built around whatever that position is in order for there to be expectations that he might perform well. That position has, for most of his United career, been the left of midfield three with two players doing the dogs' work for him. Play him there, the argument goes, and you'll see the 'real Pogba'. So we played him there, and we saw the exact same Pogba we saw when we played him in a double pivot – a talented, but frustratingly inconsistent player who appears to only play when he wants to.

Now, the argument goes, that obviously playing him in a midfield three with two players doing his defensive work for him is still asking too much of him and he should be played in, er, a midfield three with two players doing his defensive work for him but slightly further up the pitch. That's the genius solution that will solve all of Pogba's problems now, apparently, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that, like a late career Rooney, his 'best' position is always the one he's not playing in. Nor, apparently, is the argument undermined by the fact that we saw him play as a 10 fairly frequently in the first half of his first season, and he came across as a talented, but frustratingly inconsistent player who appears to only play when he wants to – then I believe the excuse was he was playing too far forward and he needed open space to run in to.

In the meantime, of course, Pogba won the World Cup playing pretty well in the same position in a double pivot that all his fans had spent 2 years saying he could not be expected to play well in.

At a certain point, we have to admit the simple fact that we've tried all the various formation tweaks we can to fit Pogba in to the side, and none of them have shaken the overall pattern of performances. Now yes, maybe Pogba's not helped by the poor movement of our attacking players (then again, I'm not sure the attacking players' movement is helped by the midfielders' unpredictability in terms of releasing the ball), yes maybe another manager may be able to coax more out of him, and yes maybe he's better at one very specific role than another (which would hardly be a surprise; for what it is worth, I think people are right about the midfield three with Pogba on the left). But, also, there's a point we've reached now where Pogba simply has to grow up. He's a 25 year old, supposedly world class midfielder – it shouldn't be unreasonable to think that he should be able to produce consistent performances, work rate, and attitude in whichever one of the three positions he has shown some aptitude for being able to play in.

Not sure what you are talking about, Pogba did quite well in the left side of a 3 man midfield.But that lasted only for a few games before Jose started messing up with the formations and personnel every single game! Now i get your point, and that is what i said in my earlier post too, that a player in any team let alone united, need to be flexible and adapt to situations and I feel Pogba needs to mature in that respect and i am sure he will. Whether it's united or elsewhere that is to be seen.

My gripe with this offensive on Pogba is two folded
1- We all knew what his strengths were when he was here and also at Juve, and we signed him to do exactly that be the creative force and to his defense he did that well in a team that is devoid of any attacking stability! You might not agree but that is the fact. When you expect him to be defensive and also be creative then that reduces his capabilities by 50% ( a tad exaggerated maybe)

2- Jose has his favorites and they cannot do anything wrong! but small mistakes by our record signing are highlighted and scrutinized to the nth degree. It's easy to scapegoat Pogba because of his off field antics, his lifestyle etc.
Matic being a defensive midfielder can make any number of defensive mistakes but he gets a start no matter what. But a creative midfielder not tracking back is the bigger issue!

Now regarding tweaking formations to accommodate players - the reason why you do that is because you know that player is special! no one would every build a team around Young would they? so there is no harm in doing that but it has to be with conviction.

Like i said the fault lies in both parties but Pogba's % of faultiness (sorry couldn't thing of any other word) is slightly lesser thats all.

 

[MadDogg]

Why won't Pogba do the high press then ?

Don't you get it, only Matic is allowed to be criticised for being slow and laborious. Pogba does not need to work hard for the team cos he's talented and that. The Martial comparison is quite fitting really, another player that gets excused by fans for not working hard just because he's talented.

David Beckham had the best right foot on the planet, and would run himself into the ground most games. Working for the team is the bare minimum.

If there are only one or two players really suited to high pressing, the team can't do it. We've seen what happened with Fred earlier in the season for exactly that reason - he'd press high, the opposition would pass around him and suddenly there would be a huge gap that they'd run into where Fred had left his position while everyone else was sitting deep.

We can cover for one or two players who don't press massively hard, although they would be expected to do more than they do in our normal sit deep and let the opposition come to us style. Martial against Arsenal was the perfect example. He pressed fantastically at times, far better than he normally does. The reason that he could do that is because the rest of the team was also doing it, getting our entire team on the front foot and making it easier for Martial to do it both physically (he wasn't having to also run all the way back every time we lost the ball) and mentally (yes that is somewhat a sign of weakness with him, but it's important to know how to get the best out of your best players).

As such, if the only 'lazier' players we had in our front six were Martial and Pogba and they were surrounded with the likes of Herrera (probably the most important person), Fred, Pereira, Rashford, Lingard and Sanchez, it should work well. But if not many of those players are playing and we're instead putting out a lineup mostly made of Matic, Pogba, Martial, Lukaku, Fellaini, McTominay, Mata, etc...we're not going to be able to press properly and it's exceedingly likely we'll play slow boring football.

 

[MadDogg]

Even Messi runs his socks off for his team. Only here you will see talks about being totally fine not working hard but putting other players to cover for you.

Enjoy 15 minutes of Messi pressing everywhere on the pitch :

Maybe when he was younger. He's been exceedingly low-working for years now.

 

[flappyjay]

If there are only one or two players really suited to high pressing, the team can't do it. We've seen what happened with Fred earlier in the season for exactly that reason - he'd press high, the opposition would pass around him and suddenly there would be a huge gap that they'd run into where Fred had left his position while everyone else was sitting deep.

We can cover for one or two players who don't press massively hard, although they would be expected to do more than they do in our normal sit deep and let the opposition come to us style. Martial against Arsenal was the perfect example. He pressed fantastically at times, far better than he normally does. The reason that he could do that is because the rest of the team was also doing it, getting our entire team on the front foot and making it easier for Martial to do it both physically (he wasn't having to also run all the way back every time we lost the ball) and mentally (yes that is somewhat a sign of weakness with him, but it's important to know how to get the best out of your best players).

As such, if the only 'lazier' players we had in our front six were Martial and Pogba and they were surrounded with the likes of Herrera (probably the most important person), Fred, Pereira, Rashford, Lingard and Sanchez, it should work well. But if not many of those players are playing and we're instead putting out a lineup mostly made of Matic, Pogba, Martial, Lukaku, Fellaini, McTominay, Mata, etc...we're not going to be able to press properly and it's exceedingly likely we'll play slow boring football.

A lot of people in this forum are so gullible the don't see what's right in front of them. Paul himself said we should be pressing teams and attacking them at home which started the beef with Jose. Why would Paul say we should be pressing when isn't prepared to do it himself. Jose will play him on Wednesday Paul will have a great game and all will say it was due to José's brilliant man management.

 

[haram]

Agreed. He offers too much in the final third for us to not figure out how to use him. The guy can't defend well - fine. Put him in a more advanced position

He did it for France when he was concentrated during the world cup. I'm sorry, but Pogba has to mature on the pitch and show it consistently. His talent is undeniable.

Does Matic ?

You really expect Matic to be able to press like that compared to Pogba?

 

[kouroux]

He did it for France when he was concentrated during the world cup. I'm sorry, but Pogba has to mature on the pitch and show it consistently. His talent is undeniable.



You really expect Matic to be able to press like that compared to Pogba?

He most definitely can like you said, however at United I think we need his creativity more in an advanced role

 

[haram]

He most definitely can like you said, however at United I think we need his creativity more in an advanced role

Then we miss what he can bring deeper in terms of his driving runs and long range passing ability. He has everything needed to succeed, hopefully he plays like a man with something to prove vs Valencia.