I have seen better performances than Pogba's at Newcastle in that league also.
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 37
- Goals
- 6
- Assists
- 16
- Yellow cards
- 5
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
https://www.express.co.uk/sport/foo...-Anthony-Martial-Ander-Herrera-Premier-League
http://www.goal.com/en-in/news/mour...disappearing-during/97kjf59562vx1k1ols4vggkb2
Pogba's substitution against Spurs was unwanted IMO and caused the current media magnification of Pogba being not utilized, we have been horrible against all big teams especially away(Liverpool, Chelsea, City at home, Arsenal(though we won the game)) where we were forced to defend against waves and waves of attack because of our tactics not because individual player made mistakes, there was nothing different in that Spurs game where we conceded early and had to open up to attack which resulted in our midfield being overrun. The entire team was horrible that match, if any one had to be subbed off early it was Phil Jones.
Literally said nothing about Martial in the first link and the second one is not scapegoating Mkhi. He was asked why he was dropped and answered. Mourinho gave Mkhi chances to play through his bad form and he didn't take them and was dropped for Lingard who was playing well.
If we were being over run in midfield and Pogba was not defending properly then yeah he should be taken off.
Against Arsenal we pressed, attacked, took a 2-0 lead, sat on it and broke.
All of this scapegoating bollocks. Our players need to man up and fecking fight the team. Mkhi was a fecking joke. Martial needs to show more intensity at times. Pogba needs to switch on more defensively. The idea that we should let the players coast is absurd.
We were being overrun in midfield during that match because of the tactics not because of one single player. Our every big away match has been like that under Mourinho(we let them dominate us in midfield and try to nick one through a longball or a setpiece), that is how we setup to play even last year when Chelsea smoked us at Stamford Bridge after we conceded very early just like the Tottenham match(pogba played then too). This is what I mean when he scapegoats players, there was no reason to sub Pogba, if he felt we needed help in midfield he should subbed in a midfielder not take off a superior player for an inferior one(especially as we were chasing the game) to make a point. Did subbing off Pogba during that match suddenly made us defensively strong or good in attack?
Pogba clearly was not following (or understanding) instructions from the manager, thats why he got subbed. I don't even like Jose but this is clear.
Mourinho criticized Martial, Shaw and Mikhi when their performance was average/crap, and at the same time, praised them heavily when their performance was good and started performing. He didn't show any agenda against players. He praises who deserves it and criticize who doesn't.
See Shaw, he has been slaughtered by Mourinho last season, and got a lot of praise this season. He deserved both. That's the rule. Work hard and you earn praise, sulk around and you get the criticism, and both in public.
Pogba has been praised by Mourinho loads of time. In fact, when everyone was slaughtering Pogba last season and calling him overrated, Mourinho was the only one defending him nonstop. When he gets criticism from the same manager it's deserved.
Mourinho won't publicly criticise Pogba regardless because he gets enough stick by the media. The others not so much.
It's baffling really. Yes, we all get it - he's a midfielder - but one that earned his considerable reputation for his work in the middle to final third of the opposition half. There are precious few players that can better his dribbling, vision and execution in that role. Making him play somewhere else nullifies what makes him great, and makes it easier for the opposition to bridge the talent gap.
That's not the main point. The main point is each player he criticized, once their performance improved he praised all of them, so there's no scapegoat stuff nonsense.
Bang on. If a player is in shite form, he needs to be dropped. Thats not 'scapegoating' or 'treating a player badly'. Its how it should be.
I would take reports with a massive pinch of salt as there's a big difference between Pogba saying "I think my favourite position is" and him actually trying to demand to Mourinho that the formation is changed just to suit him.
However, the people arguing that if Pogba is doing that, the club should back him, are absolute fecking morons. At the moment Pogba would have no right to be demanding anything as he can't even be bothered to put the work in for the position he is played in. It'd be like deliberately not doing half your job, then going to your manager and demanding a promotion into a job role that doesn't even exist, and expecting him to be sacked if he doesn't give you it.
Aside from that, if you get rid of a manager because an underperforming, lazy player wants to play in a slightly different position. What happens when you get a new manager and the same player continues to be lazy and underperform? Or decides he doesn't like something the new manager is telling him?
Beyond fecking stupid logic, even if you hate Mourinho.
Pogba can start putting the work in, THEN people can debate whether Jose should be held accountable for not using him properly.
At the moment Pogba is the guy who you can't ask to make the coffee, because he thinks he is above having to do it. He's not even the guy you wish would stop making the coffee because he's terrible at it.
He was subbed off because Jose told him to stay in midfield so we wouldn't be overrun, and he not only didn't listen but told Jose he wasn't prepared to do it. In that situation, the player has to be subbed off. I'm not sure why this is even a debate. You can't have players out on the pitch who are literally telling the manager what they are and aren't going to do. Especially not when their idea of what they are and aren't going to do is causing them to have an absolutely terrible game.
However, the people arguing that if Pogba is doing that, the club should back him, are absolute fecking morons. At the moment Pogba would have no right to be demanding anything as he can't even be bothered to put the work in for the position he is played in. It'd be like deliberately not doing half your job, then going to your manager and demanding a promotion into a job role that doesn't even exist, and expecting him to be sacked if he doesn't give you it.
Aside from that, if you get rid of a manager because an underperforming, lazy player wants to play in a slightly different position. What happens when you get a new manager and the same player continues to be lazy and underperform? Or decides he doesn't like something the new manager is telling him?
Beyond fecking stupid logic, even if you hate Mourinho.
Pogba can start putting the work in, THEN people can debate whether Jose should be held accountable for not using him properly.
At the moment Pogba is the guy who you can't ask to make the coffee, because he thinks he is above having to do it. He's not even the guy you wish would stop making the coffee because he's terrible at it.
He was subbed off because Jose told him to stay in midfield so we wouldn't be overrun, and he not only didn't listen but told Jose he wasn't prepared to do it. In that situation, the player has to be subbed off. I'm not sure why this is even a debate. You can't have players out on the pitch who are literally telling the manager what they are and aren't going to do. Especially not when their idea of what they are and aren't going to do is causing them to have an absolutely terrible game.
Oh right yeah.agreed.
I would tend to agree, but it seems Mourinho is desperate to convert him into a midfielder. It's reminiscent of LVG's desire to convert players into a role he thought was better-suited to them.
Hopefully the results will become evident soon.
If Pogba did tell Jose about the roles he want to play, it won't be in "I want his, I demand this" type of tone. They will discuss just like how players and coaches discuss on lot of topics from trainings to diet.
Carrick and Rooney had meeting with Van Gaal to sort out some issues. They will talk face to face, not on forums. So whatever it is, they won't end up in arguments going in circles. As a coach, Jose should also listen to his players, whether he agrees or not is up to him.
Carrick and Rooney had meeting with Van Gaal to sort out some issues. They will talk face to face, not on forums. So whatever it is, they won't end up in arguments going in circles. As a coach, Jose should also listen to his players, whether he agrees or not is up to him.
I think a better analogy is him purposely making the coffee bad, then saying he would be better at someone elses job and wants other workers to change job so he can have the role he wants. I think its a massive mistake to start building the team around someone so selfish and immature. We need a captain to pull him in line, Keane would be perfect.
Yeah exactly.
If your hardest working and best player says to you "I think I'd be better in x position" then you would probably listen to them even if you still decided not to change anything.
When someone who hasn't even tried to do their job well or listen to you says "I want to play in x position" why the feck are you even going to entertain it?
Pandering to players who just want to do what they want I doubt have ever resulted in success. Someone mentioned De Bruyne, but the first thing Pep did at City was take all the players who weren't fit enough or willing to do what he was asking them to, and separate them from the main group until they either grew up or left the club.
Then he should've bought another midfielder. Spending £89m on a player you want to become a sitting midfielder, when his talents are so much more evident in the other half is nonsensical. Anybody that watched him before knew his weaknesses were towards his own goal. He should improve that part of his game, but to try and convert someone who was held to be one of the best midfielders in Europe to a holding player is mental.
We have had far better players who have achieved more than he probably ever will who worked their asses off the for the team and did what was asked of them. God knows how hes ever captain in games.
I'm sorry how did you find out that Pogba flat out refused to heed Mourinho instructions?
All I got from the media and the post match conference was that Mourinho thought Pogba was not contributing to defence which was the reason for us being overrun in midfield. Our midfield has always been overrun in big away games under Mourinho, that is what our tactics basically is in those games. Besides did taking off Pogba provide us with defensive stability in that game? We were still being dominated after Pogba got subbed. meaning our tactics is the problem not an individual player.
If I was Mourinho this is what i'd do.
1. Play 433 for the rest of this season.
2. Sign central midfielders next season, including someone who can challenge Pogba for his place.
3. Play 4231 whenever i feel like it. If Pogba can't perform, his challenger can start instead.
That'll soon get his over pomped arse in gear.
1. Play 433 for the rest of this season.
2. Sign central midfielders next season, including someone who can challenge Pogba for his place.
3. Play 4231 whenever i feel like it. If Pogba can't perform, his challenger can start instead.
That'll soon get his over pomped arse in gear.
He called him over, told him to start doing what he was in the team to do, then he didn't and was subbed off.
It really doesn't matter what you think of the tactics or set up, criticise that all you want. If a player is not going to listen to the manager there is no place for them in the team, whether the tactics are right or not. Jose Mourinho manages the team. Paul Pogba doesn't.
If you think Paul Pogba would be a better manager of the team than Jose, then fair enough. I have my doubts personally.
I cannot believe how people can be so fickle, in just a span of two games our best midfielder has suddenly become lazy and underperforming. Prior to the Tottenham match there was no problem with Pogba, there were no issues about his performances. One match where we were collectively very poor and even then we were playing on par with how we were always doing in those kinds of games, Mourinho decides to sub off Pogba and brings on this shit storm. The problem in that game was due to the fecking tactics, have we ever dominated these away big matches under Mourinho? the only thing that went wrong was that we conceded early and our players have idea how to handle when we trail early against big boys and that too is down to the fecking tactics.
Tends to agree with Keane here. As I said previously, play and fight your heart in your position and any limitation in your play will be blamed on the manager alone, but sulk around and do nothing just because you're not in your favorite position, that's unacceptable at this high level of football.
I do agree with Keane's comments but at the same time i feel you need to play to a players strengths. Did Jose ever use Lampard in a midfield two? Its the same with Dele Alli i feel, Poch wouldn't use him in a midfield two either.
Jose just needs to get the balance right, they need to try and meet each other half way.
Jose just needs to get the balance right, they need to try and meet each other half way.
I'm sorry I didn't see you standing beside Mourinho listening in on that conversation
.What you posted is pure conjecture not fact. Plus after Pogba was subbed off I didn't exactly see us playing Tottenham off the park. We were even more crap after Pogba left.
Narratives are funny. In the space of three games (and the signing of next new toy Sanchez) Pogba has gone from widely accepted as our best player this season, to a lazy, underperforming brat that needs to buck up his ideas.
It's all a little mad.
It's all a little mad.
@el3mel No you have to 'FREE' Pogba 
Free him from what? Defensive responsibility? So he can score 10 goals a season?
Never have I seen such a large amount of people advocate for a midfielder to be absolved of his midfield duties. And in order to justify their ass backwards opinion they create these false realities of Pogba playing as a DM or being tasked with shielding the back 4.
They are completely different profile of players. Not only is Pogba physically superior (physicality and engine), he is also superior with the ball. Meanwhile, Lampard and Alli are superior goalscorers.
Free him from what? Defensive responsibility? So he can score 10 goals a season?
Never have I seen such a large amount of people advocate for a midfielder to be absolved of his midfield duties. And in order to justify their ass backwards opinion they create these false realities of Pogba playing as a DM or being tasked with shielding the back 4.
They are completely different profile of players. Not only is Pogba physically superior (physicality and engine), he is also superior with the ball. Meanwhile, Lampard and Alli are superior goalscorers.
Spot on. It should go without saying really, but I think too many people think football is like a computer game. You earn the right to have the team built around you by giving your all. If it doesn't work out then you ask why, and possibly change the system to increase output. Exactly what we did with Ronaldo.
@el3mel No you have to 'FREE' Pogba
Free him from what? Defensive responsibility? So he can score 10 goals a season?
Never have I seen such a large amount of people advocate for a midfielder to be absolved of his midfield duties. And in order to justify their ass backwards opinion they create these false realities of Pogba playing as a DM or being tasked with shielding the back 4.
What I find it funny the most is people thinking playing him in 4-3-3 will make him free of defensive duties. That's just a big myth. As long as he's a midfielder he'll need to do defensive efforts whenever the ball cut, unless he plays as a direct number 10 or so. The no.8 in 4-3-3 will still need to defend when required.
Exactly. Apparently Pogba was the reason for us losing the Tottenham match. It's not like we were ever dominated in big away games before, only happened because of Pogba.
Lampard was a top midfielder, he gave his all, had good output. He was moved further forward because they knew they could rely on him to keep doing his thing but knew they would get even more out of him if he was further forward.
Pogba needs to get the first part down first.
Don't you think it's the managers job to properly utilize the players you have? Even if Pogba puts in a shift as a holding midfielder, he's never going to suddenly develop the passing or the positioning awareness or the discipline that position demands especially against teams like Tottenham who are causing trouble to all big clubs.
Pogba wasnt deployed as a holding midfielder.
Yes exactly; he will simply have to cover a different area of the pitch. In the current setup Matic covers the horizontal area just in front of the defense, and Pogba covers the horizontal area just in front of Matic.
With another dedicated midfielder, Matic will cover the same space, and Pogba will have to cover the vertical area on the left side.
What many don't really pick up on is that the drop in form of Lingard is because he has done a lot more in the last month to help in midfield. And funnily enough, Pogba's has dropped in form. This tactical adjustment is probably because of the arrival of Sanchez. We havent dropped in form because of 4-2-3-1 or not getting the best out of Pogba, we are trying something new and learning on the job.
I commend you for trying; but it's one of those things that becomes 'fact' just because everyone is saying it is.
Pogba has never been a holding midfielder; he has always had someone behind him to cover for him. Last season it was Carrick or Hererra, this season it's Matic. Pogba is a midfielder that must help Matic when required and help the attackers when required. He has positional flexibility.
Funny thing is, nobody has said that.
Never did I say that Pogba should play as a DMF. What I said is :
1 - When your manager puts in an unfavorable position for you, don't sulk around as a cry baby and give your best in this position and if you failed no one will blame you, only the manager will take the blame. Doing feck all in this position, standing and watching the game passing by you and it's impossible to not slaughtered by everyone after this unprofessional performance. Mourinho took lots of blame already for playing him as a DMF, but as much as Mourinho was (and should) be blamed for this, Pogba should be blamed for not even giving it any fight and just decided to watch fecking Shelvey bossing him as it's normal. This is unacceptable in modern football. Pogba isn't and won't be the last one to play out of his favorable position, but I doubt anyone will sulk around just because of it.
2 - Even if we switch to 4-3-3 with Pogba, Herrera and Matic, Pogba will never be free from defensive duties unless he played as a direct number 10 behind the striker. As a number 8 in 4-3-3 he'll still need to track back and do his defensive duties in all teams and under any manager really. You need to realize most of big teams now play with 3 midfield. If we faced them with 2 midfielders defending while the third (Pogba) standing forward watching so that he gets "freedom", we'll still get outnumbered in midfield. As a midfielder he needs to do his defensive job. Full freedom isn't present for midfielders in modern football.
No this is you reinventing history. Pogba had two good games against Everton and Stoke, and even then, in the first half of the Everton game he was extremely lazy and against Stoke he wasn't doing his job properly which resulted in Stoke finding it very easy to break and create opportunities. The question mark over Pogba is still there after nearly two years at the club, due to his inconsistency. We've played slightly more than two games in those two years.
The problem is the reluctance to accept any criticism of Pogba, and instead trying to barrel role it into being down to "tactics" or "the whole team"...it is not the whole team or the tactics that are forcing Pogba not to do his job properly. This is about the performances of Paul Pogba, not Jose Mourinho, not the rest of the team.
If you're asking yourself "can Paul Pogba do better than that" and "if not, could he be working harder to do better" and then coming up with the answer "no" both times, then fair enough...but I think it's very difficult for anyone to honestly reach that conclusion. It's a bit of a bonkers conclusion to reach given his ability.
I'm sorry I didn't see you standing beside Mourinho listening in on that conversation
What you posted is pure conjecture not fact. Plus after Pogba was subbed off I didn't exactly see us playing Tottenham off the park. We were even more crap after Pogba left.
Why do you think he took him off then?
Again this isn't about the tactics or the rest of the team. It's a very basic principle. Pogba is put in a position, and then doesn't play in it properly, and the excuse being offered up is that it's because he doesn't want to, or doesn't suit him...as if this somehow absolves him of all fault or responsibility.
What if Ashley Young decided being a left back didn't suit him and so didn't really bother doing it anymore? What if Martial and Rashford both decide they want to be strikers and adopt the same attitude? What if Matic decides he only wants to play in a two man midfield so does a Pogba anytime we play with a three? Mata decides he only wants to play centrally? Lukaku only wants to play if he has a supporting striker etc. This would all not be their fault or responsibility either?
Here is the thing. Jose's tactics, and Paul Pogba's application in games, are not the same issue. They are two seperate issues. One is down to Jose, the other is down to Paul Pogba. You can't just roll them into one and hope it makes the problem go away.
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