I didn't say I have never seen such performances
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I'm not saying that Pogba should be freed up from his defensive duties, there has never been a history of Pogba not doing his defensive duties, hell he was a top player for Juventus and everyone defends under traditional Italian managers. Even in the Newcastle match he wasn't that bad, the problem in that match was that our attack collectively failed, Sanchez was crap, Lingard was crap, Martial was crap, so why the needless pointing out of Pogba's performance?
No he was that bad. I think the team looked disjointed and we're still struggling to find a way to integrate Sanchez into the team, however, this can't give an excuse for Pogba to be dominated by Shelvey, fecking Shelvey! He was doing nothing on the pitch, he didn't attack and didn't help the defense. Was just jogging in the field watching the match as any fan in stands.
Also, this is Pogba's performance thread. We won't talk about anyone here except Pogba you know right ? Martial's getting enough criticism in his thread, even some posts there are going OTT. I don't think anyone got a free pass in this game.
I think the book stops with Jose on this one , he should be sent a video of the Everton game and let him watch it over and over . Let Matic and Herrera hold and put Pogba , Sanchez and Martial in front of them. Pity I can’t see it happening though .
Might be a case of Mourinho thinking 4231 is the best formation right now, considering our midfield options are so limited. Fellaini injury, Herrera injury, McTominay inexperienced. With 5 attackers in Sanchez, Martial, Rashford, Lingard and Lukakau looking for a spot. 6 when Zlatan returns.
If so then Poga needs to adapt. If someone as talented as Rooney could sacrifice some of his best years playing out of position, for the good of the team, then Pogba can sacrifice a few months until the summer when Jose certainly buys 2 new midfielders and then looks at 433.
If so then Poga needs to adapt. If someone as talented as Rooney could sacrifice some of his best years playing out of position, for the good of the team, then Pogba can sacrifice a few months until the summer when Jose certainly buys 2 new midfielders and then looks at 433.
That article is very negative and probably a lot of the quoted things are not true, but even if a small percentage about him being unhappy with his return because our lack of improvement is true, then i wouldn't bother if he left for Real or PSG. Hopefully it's all just BS.
I do think the focus is too much on Pogba, but not enough on the team as a whole and the way we play. Mourinho needs to be ruthless with players like Pogba. If he doesn't follow instructions on the pitch, then play someone else, even if it has to be an inexperienced player like McTominay. But Mourinho has to set the team up better in terms of how we keep the ball and attack with it.
Thought this was kinda spot on
I think the issue is that Pogba's talents aren't particularly functional at the moment.
He's a great highlights player, but he isn't the sort of player who does the right things consistently. He isn't really a CM and he isn't a 10, so you have to build a particular formation to accommodate him, which might not be appropriate against certain opponents.
So Mourinho is trying to upskill him, to equip him to play CM - a position which is vital to the team. With Pogba playing CM, Mourinho has far more tactical flexibility and doesn't have to shoehorn players into the wrong positions.
That's my educated guess anyway. There's no way JM keeps persisting with Pogba as CM if there isn't a long-term goal behind it.
There’s too much talk over Pogba he has become the lightning rod. Sure he can do better but so should everyone else.
Ubrelieable for transfer news but this is a pretty decent read from Delaney about the situation
That’s a fairly balanced and accurate article. Not a lot to disagree with there. If this all goes tits up it will be a crying fecking shame but the bulk of the blame has to go on the player. If he can’t or won’t play at his best more often - and in more varied scenarios - then he’ll never live up to his stated ambition to be one of the best footballers in the game.
He's only 24, he can still save his career. He should leave, Mourinho is the worst type of manager for a player like him
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...-Madrid-Jose-Mourinho-Juventus-Premier-League
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/sport/f...-Madrid-Jose-Mourinho-Juventus-Premier-League
It’s full of the same old shite though. Pogba can’t excel in a midfield two (he already has, for club and country) We won’t see poor performances if he plays in a three (we already have)
How about he criticize himself in public for how shit he has had us playing, after all he is the manager and captain of the ship.
Is everybody's fault except Jose's.
His tactics are out dated, big clubs don't play such passive football anymore. He has been well supported and is time he begins to perform or feck off.
Such a toxic and childish fellow. There was no need to substitute Pogba in that tottenham game considering how overrun we where in midfield.
He should be shoring up the middle of the pack. The man is past it, it doesn't matter what he has achieved in the past evidence available showed he is himself confused on how he wants us to play.
LOL. I have never in my life seen a manager criticizes himself in public and I'm sure I'll never see.
Oh and more one thing. There's definitely an element of one of my pet hates when it comes to football discussions on this whole Pogba thing. Short fecking memories. These quotes are all from just one month ago, against Stoke.
Our formation in that game? 4231, with Martial, Lingard and Mata playing ahead of Pogba and Matic.
So I don't know why people/media seem to think that playing in a three is the only way to get the best out of Pogba in the absence of any convincing evidence that this is the case. The recent humiliation against Spurs is supposedly all the evidence we need that it's being forced to play in a two that's crippling his game but that only makes sense if you forget (short memories again!) that we started - also against Stoke - with Pogba, Matic and Hererra in a midfield three and ended up drawing 2-2. After that result Stoke lost 5 out of their next 6 league games.
Even the Juve stuff isn't terribly convincing. In that team he had the luxury of CM monsters like Vidal and Pirlo alongside him yet, statistically, was less productive (in every aspect, bar goals) than what he's produced for United since.
So yeah, the whole Pogba thing is far from simple. Obviously, he's put in some bang average performances in the last couple of weeks and is deservedly getting some stick. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath-water though. He's still relatively young and will hopefully get more and more consistent. It's also possible that we end up signing another CM (Carrick replacement) who will work well in a three with Pogba and Matic but we've already seen that throwing Herrera in the mix doesn't necessarily help so, between now and the end of the season, he needs to knuckle the feck down and at least put a really good shift in whenever he plays, in whatever formation he's asked to play. If we can all see he's working as hard as he can, I reckon we'd all be a lot less inclined to get on his case and afford him the patience he obviously needs.
Our formation in that game? 4231, with Martial, Lingard and Mata playing ahead of Pogba and Matic.
So I don't know why people/media seem to think that playing in a three is the only way to get the best out of Pogba in the absence of any convincing evidence that this is the case. The recent humiliation against Spurs is supposedly all the evidence we need that it's being forced to play in a two that's crippling his game but that only makes sense if you forget (short memories again!) that we started - also against Stoke - with Pogba, Matic and Hererra in a midfield three and ended up drawing 2-2. After that result Stoke lost 5 out of their next 6 league games.
Even the Juve stuff isn't terribly convincing. In that team he had the luxury of CM monsters like Vidal and Pirlo alongside him yet, statistically, was less productive (in every aspect, bar goals) than what he's produced for United since.
So yeah, the whole Pogba thing is far from simple. Obviously, he's put in some bang average performances in the last couple of weeks and is deservedly getting some stick. Let's not throw the baby out with the bath-water though. He's still relatively young and will hopefully get more and more consistent. It's also possible that we end up signing another CM (Carrick replacement) who will work well in a three with Pogba and Matic but we've already seen that throwing Herrera in the mix doesn't necessarily help so, between now and the end of the season, he needs to knuckle the feck down and at least put a really good shift in whenever he plays, in whatever formation he's asked to play. If we can all see he's working as hard as he can, I reckon we'd all be a lot less inclined to get on his case and afford him the patience he obviously needs.
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Lol, I know mate. He goes around criticising everybody without taking a look at himself. How is he going to feel if Ed woodward comes saying he has been too defensive which is fair criticism.
The truth is the bulk of our problem lie with coaching. We don't look a team at all, that much is obvious but hell is not Jose's fault. Nobody is asking how Herrera from player of the season became the last choice in midfield.
No progression in any of our players. Which player has sincerely made steady progress under Jose? The argument is always how we don't have world class players.
The article is the same shite because its true.
And no, Pogba hasn't 'excelled' in a midfield two for either club or country, and we'll see many more shite performances from him in a two then we will in a three.
We can judge a lot of things from one game, but it has to be said that Everton are absolutely horrible when they decide to give up. Just take a look at the game against Arsenal a couple of games ago. Just like Pogba shouldn't be held accountable for the Spurs-game, the game against Everton shouldn't be gospel either.
Nonsense. See above.
I'm more than convinced that it's got feck all to do with position or playing in a 2 or 3 man midfield. He can play in any system, he just needs to realize he isn't a kid anymore in the sense that he doesn't have to prove he's the best, he should be mature and simple in his football.
Why are you talking as if I agree on what you said ?
Mourinho or not, no manager will ever come and criticizes himself in public. You just want to hear what you want to, and if that my advice is to avoid post match press conferences then.
Conte is in even more dire state, getting humiliated by Bournemouth and Watford and he came and basically said he's doing a perfect job in his opinion and nothing more can be done unless the board thinks otherwise. Klopp has been blaming wind and dry pitch for losses. All managers are like that. Post match comments for manager after losing are just tiresome and lame to sit and replies on journalists questions.
If you want to hear a manager saying he's rubbish because it suits your opinion, I think you should check for another sport all honestly.
Anyway that's Pogba's thread not Mourinho's so better not to drag this any farther.
Was that a big game though? No one is saying he can't do better in a two against weak opposition. The Newcastle performance was inexcusable.
What people are saying is that for him to hit his very peak long term, he needs to focus on becoming more of an attacking midfielder and therefore in a three, rather than as a number 10. Than he would as a orthodox CM like a Modric.
Surely anyone can see that is logical with half a footballing brain by watching the guy since his Juve days.
He has actually put in good displays for Juve in CL in a three and yes he had world class CMs around him, but that is the whole point.. he needs babysitting, he's that sort of player. Telling him to grow up, man up and thinking that is the solution to maximising his talent and forcing him in an ill-suited position will only expose him time and time again on the big stage against world class talents, who can actually play there, are happy to play there and therefore are fully motivated and happy to play there.
It will lead to a repeated car crash against the best opposition. So what is the point of it?
The problem is, its posters like you who are building Pogba up to be some kind of superman who has just had a drop of form and everything will be alright once he gets his head screwed back on.
Imagine Pogba in a two against the elite CL sides. He'd get torn to shreds in a proper competitive game. He is very overrated by you guys who think he's done amazingly well in a two. He's been ok against weak sides, but I can't remember a notable performance in his entire career against big opposition in a two man midfield.. yet at Juve, the Bayern game, had some good games v Real, bossed City (who had KDB) .. and those were in a free role down the left.
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Top post but many people are fixated on certain formations or perceived problems, when it's just not being easy for Mourinho to find the balance with this team.
With that being said, I put some blame in both Jose and Pogba, with the former being at fault for not being ruthless enough in the summer with this squad. Right now, we don't have a competent RB to challenge Valencia, our new CB Lindelof is not getting regular game time at all, whilst persisting with the Smalling-Jones combo that hasn't and won't ever work, Matic has proven he can't go a whole season as the main engine of a challenging team anymore and is already gassed, our midfield area is still problematic, lacking in option and even quality, and the attack is still disjointed, despite having enough world-class talent to work with. We've had some young players going on loan or being neglected in general, just because they lack experience. I don't buy that and I'm sure they could have provided more effort, better outlet and better performances than even some of our starting players, which in itself would provide better competition within the club and push some of our underperformers to man up.
Great source. Got anything from goal.com?
Really? A shite Stoke side who had just sacked Hughes and had no manager...
It's a mix of both.
I don't think one can convincingly say that he's giving his 100% atm. The effort is lacking and that's unforgivable. Once you're on the pitch, you need to give your all regardless of the position.
At the same time, playing him in a middle 2 isn't going to work in matches vs opposition near our level. It's fine when the opposition is camped in their own box but won't cut it when the gulf in quality isn't substantial. In any case, he won't really deliver the performances he's capable of in that system. Few quality games in a 2 man midfield or bad ones In a 3 man midfield doesn't change anything.
Did you read my post? He played the same team in both formations. Was dogshit in a three against them, after which Stoke lost 5 out of the next 6.
Did you read the rest of my post, he will have plenty more shite performances playing in a two vs playing in a three.
I think Pogba is good enough to be given not just a game, but a run of games as the attacking midfielder within a three. A No 10 can work from the left (ie Sanchez) or the right, like Mata tries to ( I am not a Mata fan..). I can't see the issue aside from ego and personality. It's abundantly clear that Pogba should be given an attacking licence, but some want to make a point.... " he sulks... he seems to relaxed... he doesn't do this, he doesn't do that..."
Why not get him to do the things that he actually WANTS to do, and does incredibly well??
You would not adopt this approach with any valuable commodity. You would nurture it, value it, and do what you can to get the best, the maximum return.
But no. Not with the f***ing 'special' one in charge. I'm really sick of this situation. Paul Pogba could and should be absolutely flying at United, no questions asked. If he loses form, that's fine, that happens. But to have this ongoing saga about whether he plays as a two is stupid. Play Herrera when fit. Play Jones in there. Play Blind in there. Play flaming Young in there. Play McTominay in there.. alongside Matic.
But give Pogba a licence to play the game he naturally wants to play.
Why not get him to do the things that he actually WANTS to do, and does incredibly well??
You would not adopt this approach with any valuable commodity. You would nurture it, value it, and do what you can to get the best, the maximum return.
But no. Not with the f***ing 'special' one in charge. I'm really sick of this situation. Paul Pogba could and should be absolutely flying at United, no questions asked. If he loses form, that's fine, that happens. But to have this ongoing saga about whether he plays as a two is stupid. Play Herrera when fit. Play Jones in there. Play Blind in there. Play flaming Young in there. Play McTominay in there.. alongside Matic.
But give Pogba a licence to play the game he naturally wants to play.
You're probably right all things considered. I'm just fed up by the whole situation. We're in February and we still don't know our best team on paper.
I did. The rest of your post was just more nonsense. A team that had just sacked its manager is so much worse than the exact same team in the exact same season, who immediately go on to lose 5 out of their next 6 games?
Re your closing prediction, I don't have access to your crystal ball so I'll stick to analysing stuff that has actually happened.
Daily Star quoting L'Equipe which said he might have regrets. Don't believe everything you readNope. L'Equipe
Too much is made of Pogbas position ffs. When we have the ball in any formation there is absolutely nothing stopping him showcasing his talents. All of a sudden 4231 becomes a problem when Paul underperforms, which is bollocks.
L'Equipe is full of trash reporters, don't believe 90% of what they write.Nope. L'Equipe
Let's just boil it down and ask this question, if Pogba was playing for City, Liverpool or say Spurs, I think the general consensus amongst people would be that Pogba would be much better off and play a hell of a lot better
However if you flip that and say, well if we had De Bruyne here, would he be giving anywhere near as much output attacking wise as he's giving for City? The likely answer would be no
Are Pogba and De Bruyne completely the same player? Of course not, but it's more to do with the fact of how we utilise these attacking type players. If we weren't going to build the team around him, or play to his strengths and elevate them, then why the hell did we spend so much money on him because I refuse to believe we were stupid enough to spend so much money on him only to get him to 'do a job' at which he's obviously not the best suited for, the mind boggles.
However if you flip that and say, well if we had De Bruyne here, would he be giving anywhere near as much output attacking wise as he's giving for City? The likely answer would be no
Are Pogba and De Bruyne completely the same player? Of course not, but it's more to do with the fact of how we utilise these attacking type players. If we weren't going to build the team around him, or play to his strengths and elevate them, then why the hell did we spend so much money on him because I refuse to believe we were stupid enough to spend so much money on him only to get him to 'do a job' at which he's obviously not the best suited for, the mind boggles.
Your whole arguement is he played well against a managerless side in a two, who were stuck at the bottom of the table, therefore he can play in two. While struggling against the same side away from home and before their collapse playing a three. Thats nonsense.
Simple and to the point. Not that the Einstein's will agree.
Your best post in a long long time. Absolutely spot on.
Absolutely!
Totally agree.
Very good post with necessary perspective.
These posts covers the problem and possible solutions. Maybe not a coincidence that two senior posters are behind them.
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