[BlueCelery]

Seems like Pogba is more of an icing on the cake type of midfielder rather than someone that can dominate a game.

 

[GazTheLegend]

If that shot had snuck in beneath the goddamn crossbar we might be all in a very different mood today.

He's actually hit quite a few fantastic strikes that haven't quite gone in yet, but nobody remembers the near misses (quite rightly). He will crash in some monster of a 30 yarder sooner or later.

 

[Stacks]

Seems like Pogba is more of an icing on the cake type of midfielder rather than someone that can dominate a game.

This seems the most accurate at both Club and International level.

 

[Tony V's left peg]

Fair enough. For me and I think for most people especially in english football terminology, luxury footballer is seen as a negative term.

How can the word luxury refer to something negative? the definition is basically; something good but you don't need it to survive. When applied to football it usually refers to a player who won't contribute defensively but you hope will make up for it with creativity in attack. Your definition of; plays against bad teams and comes on when you're winning to take the piss sounds more like the worst guy in a Sunday league team, this person doesn't exist in professional football

 

[Cascarino]

How can the word luxury refer to something negative? the definition is basically; something good but you don't need it to survive. When applied to football it usually refers to a player who won't contribute defensively but you hope will make up for it with creativity in attack. Your definition of; plays against bad teams and comes on when you're winning to take the piss sounds more like the worst guy in a Sunday league team, this person doesn't exist in professional football

In Britain, the term luxury player does often have negative connotations rightly or wrongly. It's also often applied over here to attacking players outside of the top bracket, or who are particularly lazy (Ozil) My personal definition is the same as yours

"something good but you don't need it to survive. When applied to football it usually refers to a player who won't contribute defensively but you hope will make up for it with creativity in attack"

 

[Raees]

How can the word luxury refer to something negative? the definition is basically; something good but you don't need it to survive. When applied to football it usually refers to a player who won't contribute defensively but you hope will make up for it with creativity in attack. Your definition of; plays against bad teams and comes on when you're winning to take the piss sounds more like the worst guy in a Sunday league team, this person doesn't exist in professional football

It does exist in professional football but one mans luxury player is a key cog in a weaker team with lesser aims. If you're a poor player full stop i.e. Rooney, you are not a luxury player - you're just shit. If you're a player who is individually good, but you're a tactical liability who can only be trusted in certain games and not integral to the team's long term success.. but it is nice to have you around here and there - you're a luxury player because in theory it is nice having you but you're expendable. James Rodriguez is a luxury player at the moment for Real Madrid.. quality individual, who makes contributions here and there.. but not someone who can take them to the next level as a team or even get into the team regularly.

Mata is a luxury player at United, but for a smaller team he'd be integral. He is not someone who helps United to survive.

'Survive' is the right word, but what is 'survive' for a club like Manchester United. Winning titles is 'survival' for United, anything less is dying.

Pogba in the right team, could become a key component in helping us to 'survive' and that would mean he isn't a luxury but someone we very much need to operate at that higher level and ensure we continue to 'survive' at that level. He could form part of the spine of the team, not just be a bit part player but right now.. we need the base of the spine, and he is not the base. We do need a top level attacking threat in our midfield, either as a number 8 or a number 10. It just happens to be that these type of players do need a strong midfield base behind them as well.. no one would call Iniesta a luxury player, but he is in many ways the icing on what was a Xavi driven cake. But he still isn't a luxury player, he isn't expendable. He's a vital component in making that Barca team, something different and harder to stop.. he contributes to making them a scary proposition and gives them an identity and contributes to their playing style.

On the other hand someone like Rooney, Mata.. they're not helping us to 'survive' and in Mata's position in particular, he is a good player who looks the part in terms of being easy on the eye, some games he is useful so it is nice to have him around but in the long run he is very much disposable and not useful at all in terms of where we need to get to. We could keep him around as the occasional starter but he's a pointless player and therefore a luxury.

With Pogba, if we were to give him good midfield partners and he was still AWOL in big games.. and we were in effect carrying him in certain games, he'd deserve the label of 'luxury'. Because his role would be peripheral. He'd be something we enjoy watching but in our heart of hearts, we'd know he is expendable.

I think it is way to soon to say he'll always be a peripheral figure in big games. As a game controlling midfielder, yes.. but as a box 2 box/attacking midfielder, give the lad a chance..

 

[roonster09]

Just to kill the negativity. In my opinion, Pogba won't fail because best case scenario he becomes our own Vieira and worst case scenario he becomes our own Yaya Touré. It all depends on his ability to become a team oriented player or remain a soloist.

Everything is about balance isn't it. The way we are set up there is no one to control the game and spray the passes, attack is either started by passing the ball to full backs or Pogba trying to dribble past few players.

(Re the other discussion) I wouldn't say one midfielder was more important than other in the Juve set up, the beauty of the set up was they had players with different attributes and all together they complimented each other so well. I don't remember which season but he was even played in Pirlo's role in few games and he did well. At Juve Pogba's weakness wasn't exposed as Juve had such a compact system and also they didn't rely on him to do defensive work either. His role was more in the final third or when they win the ball he led the counter attacks.

 

[Varun]

Seems like Pogba is more of an icing on the cake type of midfielder rather than someone that can dominate a game.

Yep, he's not someone who's going to run a game for his team. He's someone who takes things to another level when the basics are already present. This is why I've always rated Verratti higher of the 2.

 

[Prometheus]

Just to kill the negativity. In my opinion, Pogba won't fail because best case scenario he becomes our own Vieira and worst case scenario he becomes our own Yaya Touré. It all depends on his ability to become a team oriented player or remain a soloist.

That's ridiculous! How good is this guy if his lowest possible potential is Yaya Toure?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's ridiculous! How good is this guy if his lowest possible potential is Yaya Toure?

He's clearly very very good for his age. Even in his one and only really good performance for United you could see what a monster he might become.

 

[Escobar]

We absolutely have to play to his strengths. He's the one the team should be built around.

People should not forget that it's normal for him to have a slow start to the season, was also the case at Juve

 

[Kevin]

He will win the Salond d'Or this year. Best haircuts ever.

 

[nick2004]

A world class player helps the team and improves everyone around him. Keane, Scholes, Becks, Rooney as his best, Messi, Ronaldo, etc ... did not require particular players or a particular system or a particular formation around them. They were fantastic players in whatever formation.

I don't know why some people say that Pogba is a world class player in a particular system, but he is shit otherwise! I can't accept that! Scholes was a great player when he played next to Keane, and he was still a great player when he played next to Kleberson.

(And actually Fellaini is playing better than Pogba!!!)

 

[Cassidy]

A world class player helps the team and improves everyone around him. Keane, Scholes, Becks, Rooney as his best, Messi, Ronaldo, etc ... did not require particular players or a particular system or a particular formation around them. They were fantastic players in whatever formation.

I don't know why some people say that Pogba is a world class player in a particular system, but he is shit otherwise! I can't accept that! Scholes was a great player when he played with Keane, and he was still a great player when he played with Kleberson.

Nobody said he is shit otherwise. And if you put Keane in midfield next to Fellaini and current Rooney you are not going to see the best of Keane.

 

[Stacks]

A world class player helps the team and improves everyone around him. Keane, Scholes, Becks, Rooney as his best, Messi, Ronaldo, etc ... did not require particular players or a particular system or a particular formation around them. They were fantastic players in whatever formation.

I don't know why some people say that Pogba is a world class player in a particular system, but he is shit otherwise! I can't accept that! Scholes was a great player when he played next to Keane, and he was still a great player when he played next to Kleberson.

(And actually Fellaini is playing better than Pogba!!!)

1)Because he made the Fifpro Xi.
2)They hadn't seen him play

 

[nick2004]

Nobody said he is shit otherwise. And if you put Keane in midfield next to Fellaini and current Rooney you are not going to see the best of Keane.

For 100 million, Pogba is shit. Fellaini is contributing more than Pogba. Pogba should be helping Fellaini to look like a better player, and not vice versa.

Kleberson never looked better than Scholes. And nobody ever said that Scholes needs Keane to shine, but you know Scholes is not contributing because of Kleberson. Both Scholes and Kleberson were judged on their own. Pogba is the culprit for contributing very little, not the other players around him.

 

[legball]

A world class player helps the team and improves everyone around him. Keane, Scholes, Becks, Rooney as his best, Messi, Ronaldo, etc ... did not require particular players or a particular system or a particular formation around them. They were fantastic players in whatever formation.

I don't know why some people say that Pogba is a world class player in a particular system, but he is shit otherwise! I can't accept that! Scholes was a great player when he played next to Keane, and he was still a great player when he played next to Kleberson.

(And actually Fellaini is playing better than Pogba!!!)

The way you said that like football is black & white, so , was Di Maria & Veron not world class? Saying a player is not world class because he has not transformed his new team in 5 games is a bit kneejerk. Pogba is world class, I suspect you'll be saying that if he signed for Real Madrid. I think he's not at his best yet, similar to this time last season at Juventus, some players need time to click with new surroundings, others do it faster, once he gets going, whether in a midfield 2 or 3, we'll start seeing the great player he is. Calm down.

 

[Cassidy]

For 100 million, Pogba is shit. Fellaini is contributing more than Pogba. Pogba should be helping Fellaini to look like a better player, and not vice versa.

Kleberson never looked better than Scholes. And nobody ever said that Scholes needs Keane to shine, but Scholes is not contributing because of Kleberson. Both Scholes and Kleberson were judged on their own. Pogba is responsible for contributing very little, not the other players around him.

Pogba should be helping the DM look better at being the DM? No he shouldn't. He should be making Rashford, Ibra, Martial, Rooney etc look better though I agree.

 

[nick2004]

If we put Fellaini next to Keane or Scholes, then Fellaini would seem to us a better player than he seems now. Keane or Scholes would look like themselves, neither better nor worse.

 

[Cassidy]

If we put Fellaini next to Keane or Scholes, then Fellaini would seem to us a better player than he seems now. Keane or Scholes would look like themselves, neither better nor worse.

Not really true, he would look like Fellaini, and when teams come at us he would still be out of position and be chasing shadows in midfield due to his lack of mobility.

Likely also Scholes/Keane would need to drop deeper to come and get the ball due to his lack of ability on the ball. Meaning we would lack a midfield body further up the pitch (if Fellaini is playing as the DM)

I actually like Fellaini, but do not disregard tactical setup to how players will perform on the pitch

Pogba is currently playing poorly and that is not down to Fellaini btw, but its nonesense to suggest that Pogba should be making the DM look good, the DM should be there to provide the platform for Pogba to go and play not the other way round.

 

[Water Melon]

If one of our rivals signed Pogba for the amount we paid, and Paul performed the way he has done so far, we would be calling him a flop and ridicule the rivals for wasting tons of money. I do, however, that Mou will get it right and Pogs will truly show what he is capable of.

 

[nick2004]

If we were going to buy Pirlo ten years ago, would you make it conditional? Ie. he wouldn't be able to perform without also buying XYZ player? It's silly even to suggest that!!! You buy Pirlo because he is a great player. If you are rich then you also buy another great player next to him, but that's a separate issue. Pirlo is great no matter who is next to him.

 

[legball]

As someone who has followed his career and watched him almost every game for the past 3 yrs, I think a lot of people don't understand the kind of player we have signed. At his very best, he's not a Kroos or Xavi, he's more of a Gerrard (though technically streets ahead). I don't fully agree that he's not playing well because of the system, while that remains a factor, it's not the reason for misplacing passes and other simple things like that which he's not doing well right now, he's a slow starter, but once he gets up to speed, we'll see the outstanding player that he is.

 

[Cassidy]

If we were going to buy Pirlo ten years ago, would you make it conditional? Ie. he wouldn't be able to perform without also buying XYZ player? It's silly even to suggest that!!! You buy Pirlo because he is a great player. If you are rich then you also buy another great player next to him, but that's a separate issue. Pirlo is great no matter who is next to him.

Yes Milan would have been excellent without Guttuso doing the leg work for him, and Juve would be brilliant without protecting his lack of mobility in a midfield 3. Of course.

 

[Cassidy]

As someone who has followed his career and watched him almost every game for the past 3 yrs, I think a lot of people don't understand the kind of player we have signed. At his very best, he's not a Kroos or Xavi, he's more of a Gerrard (though technically streets ahead). I don't fully agree that he's not playing well because of the system, while that remains a factor, it's not the reason for misplacing passes and other simple things like that which he's not doing well right now, he's a slow starter, but once he gets up to speed, we'll see the outstanding player that he is.

I agree with this tbh

 

[nick2004]

The way you said that like football is black & white, so , was Di Maria & Veron not world class? Saying a player is not world class because he has not transformed his new team in 5 games is a bit kneejerk. Pogba is world class, I suspect you'll be saying that if he signed for Real Madrid. I think he's not at his best yet, similar to this time last season at Juventus, some players need time to click with new surroundings, others do it faster, once he gets going, whether in a midfield 2 or 3, we'll start seeing the great player he is. Calm down.

Di Maria and Veron were flops for us. Are you suggesting that Pogba is also a flop?

Veron did not lack great players around him. On the contrary we had a great squad. Veron never performed what we expected from him, it was his fault.

Di Maria simply did not want to be here. It does not matter who we had around him, what formation we played etc. In the first month, Di Maria was great, which shows that the formation and the players around him did not make him a worse player. Later on, he simply wanted to move away, so he couldn't perform.

 

[nick2004]

Yes Milan would have been excellent without Guttuso doing the leg work for him, and Juve would be brilliant without protecting his lack of mobility in a midfield 3. Of course.

Pirlo would still be a great player. He would be standing around watching the birds.

 

[Cassidy]

Di Maria and Veron were flops for us. Are you suggesting that Pogba is also a flop?

Veron did not lack great players around him. On the contrary we had a great squad. Veron never performed what we expected from him, it was his fault.

Di Maria simply did not want to be here. It does not matter who we had around him, what formation we played etc. In the first month, Di Maria was great, which shows that the formation and the players around him did not make him a worse player. Later on, he simply wanted to move away, so he couldn't perform.

Whilst I think Di Maria is a cretin.... The problem with your argument here is that after that month of being great as you said, LVG not only changed the formation but he also consistently changed Di Marias position in the side...

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Pogba mainly played with Khedira, Marchisio, Vidal and Pirlo, these players formed the actual base of Juventus's midfield while Pogba was the agitator, he wasn't a crucial cog in the machinery, now he is asked to become one, he has to learn that part of the game, it's going to take time and he needs to find a partner that suits him.

This.

He's not going to solve our midfield/fluidity issues. He could be devastating if we get those parts working property alongside him or with him.

 

[Cassidy]

Pirlo would still be a great player. He would be standing around watching the birds.

He would be picking passes but the midfield would be getting exposed and overrun and thus people would be talking about his deficiencies since Milan and Juve would be losing games. That is the nature of football.

Again I will say Pogba has been playing poorly btw and its not ALL down to his teammates or setup.

 

[BlueCelery]

Yep, he's not someone who's going to run a game for his team. He's someone who takes things to another level when the basics are already present. This is why I've always rated Verratti higher of the 2.

It's actually very disappointing after all the hoopla pre-debut.

The likes of Scholes, Keane, Kroos, Iniesta, Xavi, Pirlo etc excelled in various roles while Pogba needs other players to dominate the game for him to succeed. He's not even creating chances despite his talent level.

I really thought he'd grow some balls & finally take the game by the scruff of the neck with the lofty pricetag and added expectations/responsibility on his shoulder. Even Di Maria started off well until the robbery.

 

[nick2004]

When Scholes played with Kleberson, Scholes looked like a great player and Kleberson looked like shit.

When Pogba plays with Fellaini, Fellaini looks better (than last year) and Pogba looks like shit.

Think about it!...

 

[Cassidy]

When Scholes played with Kleberson, Scholes looked a great player and Kleberson looked likr shit.

When Pogba plays with Fellaini, Fellaini looks better and Pogba looks like shit.

Think about it!...

Yes he looked completely shit vs Southampton. And Fellani looked liked a top class DM yesterday.
In any case I'm willing to bet who turns out the better midfielder for us this season, want to put a wager on it?

 

[Witchking]

When Scholes played with Kleberson, Scholes looked like a great player and Kleberson looked like shit.

When Pogba plays with Fellaini, Fellaini looks better (than last year) and Pogba looks like shit.

Think about it!...

Think this guy is a wum.

 

[Sb_16]

Just look at this guy. He'll come good sooner than later.

 

[legball]

Di Maria and Veron were flops for us. Are you suggesting that Pogba is also a flop?

Veron did not lack great players around him. On the contrary we had a great squad. Veron never performed what we expected from him, it was his fault.

Di Maria simply did not want to be here. It does not matter who we had around him, what formation we played etc. In the first month, Di Maria was great, which shows that the formation and the players around him did not make him a worse player. Later on, he simply wanted to move away, so he couldn't perform.

Good. You can be great, world class, then go to a new team with good players and not perform, it happens, so, shelve this idea that if Pogba does not improve United then he was never great/or never world class. The player we signed from Juventus is an A lister. It's been 5 games, it's September, he didn't have a pre-season, he'll take time to get up to speed, like he always did at Juve. Now, while the system is also a factor, it's not the reason he's not getting his passes & positioning right at the moment, once he gets up to speed, even if played in a midfield 2, he'll still show his quality, but to get the VERY best out of him, you want him in a midfield 3.

 

[Cascarino]

The likes of Scholes, Keane, Kroos, Iniesta, Xavi, Pirlo etc.

Disagree with Pirlo being listed there, he was a class player but had to play a specific system to suit his needs.

Same as Xavi and Iniesta, both among the greatest midfielders ever yet if you put them in a different setup, one that didn't revolve around ball retention and fluid movement, you're not going to see the best of them.

 

[nick2004]

Here is an article about "star" Kleberson...

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...kleberson-hands-it-to-hardman-scholes-1130097

What was the problem with Kleberson? Perhaps, we did not use the right formation? Or perhaps, we did not bring the right players to suit him?

If SAF used a different formation and different players, would Kleberson be able to shine and to win the Ballon d'Or???

Let me remind everyone that Kleberson won the World CUp. In the past 25 years, we did not have many players who won the world cup.

 

[Varun]

It's actually very disappointing after all the hoopla pre-debut.

The likes of Scholes, Keane, Kroos, Iniesta, Xavi, Pirlo etc excelled in various roles while Pogba needs other players to dominate the game for him to succeed. He's not even creating chances despite his talent level.

I really thought he'd grow some balls & finally take the game by the scruff of the neck with the lofty pricetag and added expectations/responsibility on his shoulder. Even Di Maria started off well until the robbery.

It's only disappointing if you expected him to run games for us. It's unfair on pogba though seeing as we bought him despite him never doing it for Juve. It was not his job to run the midfield there so we should try and use him to do what made us pay top dollar for him. In any case, he's not played to his potential and needs to do better. It's not all about the system even though I'm sure we'll never get a fair return on the investment made if we persist with what we've done so far.

 

[Stacks]

Good. You can be great, world class, then go to a new team with good players and not perform, it happens, so, shelve this idea that if Pogba does not improve United then he was never great/or never world class. The player we signed from Juventus is an A lister. It's been 5 games, it's September, he didn't have a pre-season, he'll take time to get up to speed, like he always did at Juve. Now, while the system is also a factor, it's not the reason he's not getting his passes & positioning right at the moment, once he gets up to speed, even if played in a midfield 2, he'll still show his quality, but to get the VERY best out of him, you want him in a midfield 3.

He is hardly a shining light for France, according to Le French