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Thats the way we used to play. 442 with pacey wingers on the right and 2 strikers up top.
Somewhere along the lines, we became obsessed with this "control the game and pass it around" style. 'Number 10s and holding midfielders'... Maybe it was the trashing that Barcelona gave us in 09 and 2011. I dunno. But it's not the United way at all. We're playing strikers on the wings and strikers in central midfield and then we wonder why we can't beat the likes of Watford and Feyenoord.
Pogba is more than good enough to play in a flat 442 alongside Schneiderlin or Fellaini. He's got way more defensive qualities than Scholes did, thats for sure. And Scholes played in it. Then play Martial and Mkhitaryan on the wings with Rashford and Zlatan up top? Looks good to me. If we want attacking football, we need to actually play an attacking formation.
I understand where you're coming from, and I think the importance of formations are overstated. I have trouble imagining United playing that way now though, while it was very exciting, it was kind of shown up in Europe.
I think a manager like Klopp (not bashing Mourinho, just talking stylistically) would have really suited United, he probably would have added some pace and he'd definitely bring attacking football to the table.
That would be the definition of luxury player, another term that gets bandied around these parts. Pogba just needs to play better. If he can't, then's he will be another mistake. However, I think he will play better.
Hypothetically lets say Pogba doesn't play another good game in his United career and plays shit, could it go down as one of the biggest flops in history of sports? Obviously i dont think this will happen.
I thought he was ok yesterday. Definitely looked more relaxed on the ball than in previous games and looked threatening with the ball. Just need to remain patient with him.
Man that bar rattler, I was walking past the TV at the time and I was about 3ft in the air with my head in my hands in anguish when it hit the bar. Thought that was it. He's just gotta keep the work rate up and keep his head up, it will come.
I don't think that is a luxury player. A luxury player is someone you utilise against easy teams or bring on against good teams when you're winning to rub salt into their wounds.. Or a person who will never be the key component within a team.
Pogba is none of the above for me. He's not a player who can stand on his own two feet and single handedly take us to the next level but with the right players around him he can be a key player for us and can be the star we need him to be. Whereas I never felt Mata or Berbatov would ever be United quality players regardless of who we signed next to them .. They were luxury players.
Whenever I watch him I just don't get why we had to pay all that money. Is there no one else who can offer what he's offering?
We paid that much because that is what it took to get him. When looking at price, you not only have to look at how good he is at the moment, but how good he can be in the future. His resume up until now is very impressive which also adds on to the price. A player with one good season under their belt will go for less than someone who has proven it for 3-4 seasons.
In Pogba's case he had 4 seasons in which he accomplished alot.
I don't think there are any that can bring what he can. You just need to be patient and it will show.
You're trying to tell me you pay the worlds largest transfer fee for someone who might become good in the future??
Man, when you're paying the largest transfer fee in the world you get players READY to perform on the highest level right away. Jesus christ!!!!!
What? Where on earth did you think that I said he wasn't ready now?You're trying to tell me you pay the worlds largest transfer fee for someone who might become good in the future??
Man, when you're paying the largest transfer fee in the world you get players READY to perform on the highest level right away. Jesus christ!!!!!
I'm saying that part of the reason his fee is so high is that he has room to grow given the fact that he's 23.
You said it was the price that it took to get him and
To me that says he's not justifying his price tag right now. To me you only buy historical players for fees like that. You buy legends. Transfermarkt has him valued at £56m, I think that's a fair price.
I said it was a factor in the price being what it is. His age implies that he can get even better and if contract negotiations work out, you can even get more than 4-5 years of service from him. To ignore age is ignorant. If you have the same player, but aged 28, there is a good chance that he will start to decline and there is less of a chance of that player improving. If contract negotiations don't work out in 4-5 years and he does perform well, there is a good chance you can sell him and get a good chunk of change back, which wouldn't be possible if he were older.
All of that factor into what he's worth.
It's not just "how good is he right now." Like I said before. Suppose a player performed as well as another player, but one of them has done it for 3-4 more seasons and the other player only did it for one season. Assuming they were the same age, why would they be equal in price when there is more risk with another player? One is more proven and the other could have just had a fluke season.
Reputation factors into it too. Pogba has won 4 league titles with Juve. He won the Golden boy award, golden ball at u20 world cup, and best young player at the World Cup. All of that makes him a bigger name with a huge reputation.
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A luxury player is someone who won't work as part of the defensive system but instead adds something unique in attack. You're maybe thinking of a utility player
The zillionaire-contract player syndrome. Football is a byproduct in their (social) media careers. Completely missing the hunger and the drive to excel.
I don't think he's missing the drive to excel. He largely wants to win the balon d'or in the future. You can sense his frustration when things aren't going well so it's not like he's coasting and satisfied on the pitch.
He's just not at his best right now which could be due to a lot of things that have been discussed to death on here.
Bullshit. If he adds something unique in attack he is a key attacking component. Messi is a luxury player?
As much as I think his start has been very frustrating and that he is trying too hard to do things himself/ getting a bit lost in games I'm not at all worried.
What I do think would be worthwhile is playing him at 10 for pretty much most of the season. Less responsibility, more freedom and closer to the goal, let him do what he wants there and I'm convinced he would give you more than everyone except maybe a firing Mkhiki.
What I do think would be worthwhile is playing him at 10 for pretty much most of the season. Less responsibility, more freedom and closer to the goal, let him do what he wants there and I'm convinced he would give you more than everyone except maybe a firing Mkhiki.
Messi is an important part of the machinery though.
When you've got Fellaini alongside you who is devoid of creativity and pace and Rooney who can't control a football ahead I'm sure it makes things more difficult than it needs to be. Pogba can't do everything on his own.
Attacking machinery yes. As part of Pep's team, he was part of the defensive machinery too but not any more in the current system. Either way to say any player who takes no part in the defensive machinery is a luxury player is lunacy as every striker in the world could possibly be seen as a luxury. Pogba could be a luxury player if he has everything built for him and still fails to perform effectively.. but saying he is a luxury player because he needs support is just plain wrong.
Pretty sure if you dropped proper midfielders like Keane, Scholes, Vieira etc between those two, they'd do just fine.
He's playing shit on an individual level regardless, disappearing for stretches and making bad decisions on the ball others.
Pogba is a luxury because he is out of the base system, that's why he was the first player moved around in tough games. And the other poster is wrong when he talks about defense for luxury players because it's about build-up not defense, Messi at the beginning of his career was outside of the build-up schemes with Barcelona but now he is at its heart that's why he could have been seen as a "luxury" player before Guardiola but he isn't now.
Disagree once again. Even before Pep arrived, he was an important cog in their attack and you can never call someone of his talent a luxury player.. he has never been a luxury player. Look at his role when he first broke through on the wing and then look at him during the 07/08 season against United where he ran us ragged.. hardly a luxury player. You don't need to be at the heart of the team to be excluded from being a luxury player, you just need to be an important member of the team who can be relied upon to hold his weight against any opposition and not a tactical liability.
I think people are very confused. Pogba is possibly a luxury player - personally think it is way too early to judge him in those terms, he could be an important player if played in the right system with the right players. This is in contrast to a Berbatov, who even if you created an entire team around him.. he'd still be a luxury player in big title deciding games as he wouldn't be able to hold his own in terms of workrate, nor would he be dynamic enough with the ball to drive our play. Mata likewise, is certainly a luxury player. Rooney is a luxury player these days but without any of the luxurious elements.. he's just a pile of shit.
Pogba is a luxury CM, agreed.. because he does flicks, tricks etc but lacks the core fundamentals needed to play in that role. But a luxury Attacking midfielder? way too early to say that because from what I see he plays with alot of athleticism/passion and looks to get on the ball and try stuff. He doesn't pull it off at the moment but he isn't just picking the easy option and nor is he a non-entity in our build up play.. I see him on the ball alot.
If in a year and a half, if he is playing in attacking midfield and is still always a passenger in big games and a tactical liability.. by all means call him a luxury player. Not 4 games in and when he is playing in the wrong position, wrong team mates around him.
@Raees You see the word luxury as pejorative while I don't.
Fair enough. For me and I think for most people especially in english football terminology, luxury footballer is seen as a negative term.
So when you do use it as a term, you have to be careful that the player you're labelling it with.. satisfies the criteria for luxury footballer. Before we signed Pogba, I had my fears too that he is a 'luxury' footballer.. but honestly, seeing him in our team.. I see positives, I see scope for development in him.. against Watford, the lad was doing really well in that LCM position first half.. but you can tell he is on the leash at the moment.
I know and you are all wrong. Luxury players are precious for functioning teams, they provide that little something that makes the difference but at the same time that little something isn't crucial, it's great to have it though. It's like Koke, from a tactical POV Koke is a dispensable player for Atletico but they are glad to have him, their two CMs on the other hand are crucial and are at the base of everything.
I don't believe that for a second. You could see how riled up by the performance yesterday. I bet he was in that changing room dishing out bollockings left right and centre.
Think he was ok yesterday, looked very frustrated about how shite we were playing, simply put he's used to playing in a team at a higher level and he's an impulsive instinct filled player. Play well around him and he'll lift to be the best in the team, play tumescent crap around him and he'll be frustrated and impatient whilst trying to do it all himself.
He must look at his passing trio of Fellaini and Rooney as fecking abhorrent and I cannot blame him. He always looks better with Mata on the pitch and throw in Herrera or Carrick and he'll lift.
He must look at his passing trio of Fellaini and Rooney as fecking abhorrent and I cannot blame him. He always looks better with Mata on the pitch and throw in Herrera or Carrick and he'll lift.
I'm amazed Mourinho isn't setting up the team to get the best out of Pogba. Amazed.
I don't think he is either. I just think the hysterical comments I've read ("he'll only succeed if x,y and z happens...") make him sound as if he is.
The team should be built around him and set up to get the best out of him. I can't believe a manager would chase him for two clubs and end up breaking the world record fee to get him, just to stick him in a midfield two next to Fellaini.
Imagine going from having players like Vidal, Marchisio, Khiedra and Dybala around you, to Rooney and Fellaini. It's not great.
Imagine going from having players like Vidal, Marchisio, Khiedra and Dybala around you, to Rooney and Fellaini. It's not great.
Can't believe some of the posts on here, give the bloke at least half a season before getting the noose out.
I and quite a few in the Pogna transfer thread never wanted him back and certainly not at the prices we eventually paid as I don't think he's worth the money -
But give the guy a chance to settle in, he's already shown a few glimpses of what he can do, he just needs a confidence boost and he'll be flying. Or so I hope.
But give the guy a chance to settle in, he's already shown a few glimpses of what he can do, he just needs a confidence boost and he'll be flying. Or so I hope.
If that shot had snuck in beneath the goddamn crossbar we might be all in a very different mood today.
He's no good being played next to Fellaini. I agree with what Scholes said, he needs to be played next to somebody who can control the game. A player who is good defensively and can sit in front of the defense to give Pogba the freedom to go forward more.
Just to kill the negativity. In my opinion, Pogba won't fail because best case scenario he becomes our own Vieira and worst case scenario he becomes our own Yaya Touré. It all depends on his ability to become a team oriented player or remain a soloist.
lol
He's clearly no DM but was it his job to pick up the run of Capue and Zuniga for there goals. Jose is making the same mistake as deschamps
Playing him there is like buying a Ferrari to drive around town yes it looks good, but it's expensive and not fit for purpose
Playing him there is like buying a Ferrari to drive around town yes it looks good, but it's expensive and not fit for purpose
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