[Smores]

Lets be honest, Pogba's the best midfielder in the League irrespective of pricetags. He just keeps letting himself down in the big games/moments hence the OTT criticism.

He hasn't come close to being the best midfielder in the league this season, exactly what criteria are you using to reach that conclusion?

Nobody should be writing him off, players need tike to settle but it doesn't mean he can't be recognised as underperforming.

 

[OldTrevil]

Typical OTT blaming on Pogba . He wasn't great but he never got a chance to be. It felt like he was in no mans land most of the game. Our five defenders all they did when they got the ball was hoof it past him most of the time, in defense he couldn't over commit or press especially after Herrera was off as getting behind him would have opened so much more space for Chelsea. The few times he got the ball, no one around him made a move to want the ball which meant he either had to hold it and dribble or pass it back it to the defenders to hoof it. People will keep on seeing what they want to see I guess.

 

[STaphouse]

I blame Mourinho. Pogba is tired, plays in a midfield two, new league, new team, expectations.....

Sure we could expect more, but he will never be better in a midfield 2 than a midfield 3. I want him as far away from our own box as possible, he is even worse than Fellaini for defending deep. He should be closer to the opposition box than our own. Some even think he can play as a 6 in a few years Just because he can ping a few long balls and has a strong build, which he doesnt use half the time. He is just not ready to play in a midfield two and i doubt he ever will be better there than in a more advanced role in a midfield 3. That said he is still young and with some rest in the summer and an improved team next season hopefully, i hope he shows his class consistently.

We are doing an experiment here with a 89m pound guy. Same if we get Griezmann. Throw him somewhere and hope he delivers.

Yeah just blame Mourinho because, in big games, Pogba turns into a dabbing Mulumbu.

 

[Quizierda]

A few weeks back nearly everbody was cheering at him as the best midfielder in the league..

He has already shown what he can bring to our side. He is simply tired and needs some rest - then he will be fine again! Jose needs to address this issue. I guess he has the right to play 'as long as he is fit' in his contract. Nevertheless Jose needs to convince him to take a little break and come back even stronger. Against Rostov we should be fine without him.

He is a great player and I still can't believe that we have him back. Given a bit of rest and a full pre-season with the team in summer will do wonders to him. Pog will be the face of our new United and I really hopr we may enjoy him fore many years to come!

 

[itso 7]

He is not great as a #10 and he struggles in a deeper role whereas when we played him in a 3 men midfield we didn't score enough so maybe if played a 4-4-2 diamond which allows us to play two strikers - Zlatan and Martial/Rashford/Mata, use Mkhitaryan as a No.10, play Pogba as LCM, Herrera as RCM and Carrick/new signing as DM maybe we could have a formation that has our key players playing in their best roles. Upfront we won't have to endure Zlatan's immobility because he would be paired with a younger striker and in midfield we find Pogba a role where he is not the sole creative force in the team and he doesn't have too much defensive responsibility but it would leave us a bit vulnerable on the flanks defensively but I think the potential offensive benefits could outweigh that vulnerability.

 

[red4ever 79]

How bad was that last night. It's like a hangover. You wake up and wonder if it really did go like that.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

I'd drop him for Thursday. He needs a break.

 

[balaks]

Lets be honest, Pogba's the best midfielder in the League irrespective of pricetags. He just keeps letting himself down in the big games/moments hence the OTT criticism.

Bizarre post. On what basis do you make that judgement? I say this because it can't possibly be based on his performances.

 

[TMDaines]

doing what?

What is it people want from central midfielders? In terms of central midfielders in the top 5 leagues with at least 12 appearances, Pogba is per 90 minutes:

• #1 for shots
• #3 for shots in box;
• #9 for successful dribbles;
• #13 accurate long passes;
• #16 for key passes;
  
• #18 for passes;
• #21 for aerial duels won;

out of 229 players.

In terms of a complete midfielder with the ball, Pogba is right up there. There's players who are better at certain aspects of the game (Kroos, Thiago), but very few are close to being the all-rounder that he is. Thiago's game is pretty incredible when you look at the numbers though: #3 for passes and #1 for interceptions is astonishing. Pogba doesn't look good here as he's #181 for tackles and #201 for interceptions. With the position he occupies on the pitch, he needs to be winning the ball back more. It'a also interesting to see that Kanté's game isn't quite borne out in the numbers in the way you'd expect.

I'm frustrated with Pogba and Zlatan's poor finishing in front of goal, but I'd far rather they continue to get the chances and the variance to eventually fall our way, than not have the chances at all. As soon as we convert even an average amount of chances, people's perception of Pogba will massively shift as he will rack up far more goals, assists and the team, far more points. There is a massive difference between a player not being involved in matches and a player doing all the right things, but not getting the expected outputs whether that be due to variance or genuine poor quality at the key moments.

As I said before, if this is Pogba when he is bad, we're in for something good even when he's average.

Edit: Pogba's tackles and interceptions ranking was wrong.

 

[Peanut Butter]

I bet loads of you would have sold Ronaldo after his first season!

Let Pogba have a rest and focus on doing the basics, let him mature a little and he will be a superb player when surrounded by other good players.

 

[GhastlyHun]

Lets be honest, Pogba's the best midfielder in the League irrespective of pricetags. He just keeps letting himself down in the big games/moments hence the OTT criticism.

Bizarre post. On what basis do you make that judgement? I say this because it can't possibly be based on his performances.

Well, given that he's a Chelsea supporter, I think that's a tongue-in-cheek comment. aka some fine trolling.

 

[Chaky_Best]

I really think that he was ok during the first 30 mins before the Michael Olivers's incident.

He was better than against Bournemouth were he was awful.

I think that he's suffering from playing every game with no proper preparation last year, being targeted every game etc.

The issue with the comments are double.

First his attitude (more than his production) during the last 65 mins of the game was questionnable. He was lazy and not aggressive enough in his defensive runs. I really think that he lacks a defensive mind that cost him.

And secondly, I think that he suffers from Kanté's production. Kanté is perfect in this team, when Mourinho keeps changing formation and guy every game.

I just hope that next year he'll be better surrounded (like he was in Turin) and could produce

 

[Adam-Utd]

Pretty hard to show your best when you've got 9 players behind you, Fellaini beside you and 1 player upfront against 3 central defenders.

He was doing really well against Kante until the red card, he won pretty much all the duels against him. Once we sat back and got dominated his effectiveness wore off. He was too tired to carry the ball and we just kept lumping it forward.

But yeah clearly Pogba is the scapegoat this season. Got to blame somebody.

 

[Womp]

Bizarre post. On what basis do you make that judgement? I say this because it can't possibly be based on his performances.

I think it's fair to say his ceiling is the highest of all the midfielders in the league. In terms of performances he's not even the best midfielder at United though.

Hoping it all clicks next season with better personnel etc.

 

[Cassidy]

Excuses

 

[Jaybomb]

He was rubbish yesterday. Stop making excuses for him.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I don't know where to start with Pogba. I still have huge hopes for him, he's a terrific athlete when bags of potential, and he's still young, but it's hard to be impressed by what he's showing on the pitch. You wouldn't imagine a player of his stature is lacking confidence, but something is definitely off. Perhaps he just needs a moment, a 20-yard screamer or something to re-ignite his game. Or, as Crackers said above, maybe he just needs to put in a lot more effort.

Think it has been mentioned about the tempo of the Italian league compared to the PL, could be he had forgotten that fact and it has come as a shock.That teams, even the smaller ones, don't just let you spray the ball about to your hearts content or let you run where you want to run.

 

[Full bodied red]

I don't watch much non United football so have no idea about his time at Juventus except what I've been told on Redcafe.

in the summer time transfer thread 'expert' Pogba fans told us he was gold during his time in Italy. And that he would hit the ground running.

So what am I missing here?

You're not missing anything.

Too many on here didn't see him regularly at Juve. They bought into the hype, the image, the ' prodigal-son-comes-home', etc, etc, and ( quite rightly ) the expectation that the world's most expensive player was going to massively improve us.

Well, yes PP is an improvement on the crud we saw so often last season. But I'm not sure that he'll ever massively improve us based on what was evident at Juve, where he was usually 'competent' but rarely put in a man of the match performance. As I've said before several times, I can't remember too many times when at the end of a Juve match I thought to myself ' This is the guy we need...This is the guy who will make a difference to us...We've got to sign him, no matter the price tag...'

And based on what we've seen so far this season, the speed, the athleticism, the physical and mental requirements of rhe EPL compared to Serie A are ( up to now ) exposing the weaknesses of his game.

He will never be a Viera, a Toure, or a Keane who could dominate a game with their sheer physical presence, their energy and non-stop effort.

He will never be a Lampard, a Modric, a Silva who can unlock a tight defense by running at them with great ball carrying skills and quick feet.

He will never be an 'artist' like Cantona, like Pirlo, like Iniesta.

He will never be a ' terrier ' like Makalele, like Scholes, and like we're seeing in Kante.

What we saw at Juve was that his skill set is based largely on his ability to hit a stunning through ball every so often to a thinking striker like Ibrahimovic or a fast striker like Rashford. To be honest, to his credit we've seen that a few times this seaon. But equally honestly, we haven't seen anything else to make us believe that he can up his game to levels that are required to star in the EPL.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Bizarre post. On what basis do you make that judgement? I say this because it can't possibly be based on his performances.

Well ya, but given he literally only rates Chelsea players, I can only assume that was a poor attempt at a WUM.

 

[Synco]

What is it people want from central midfielders? In terms of central midfielders in the top 5 leagues with at least 12 appearances, Pogba is per 90 minutes:

• #1 for shots
• #3 for shots in box;
• #9 for successful dribbles;
• #13 accurate long passes;
• #16 for key passes;
  
• #18 for passes;
• #21 for aerial duels won;

out of 229 players.

In terms of a complete midfielder with the ball, Pogba is right up there. There's players who are better at certain aspects of the game (Kroos, Thiago), but very few are close to being the all-rounder that he is. Thiago's game is pretty incredible when you look at the numbers though: #3 for passes and #1 for interceptions is astonishing. Pogba doesn't look good here as he's #192 for tackles and #224 for interceptions. With the position he occupies on the pitch, he needs to be winning the ball back more. It'a also interesting to see that Kanté's game isn't quite borne out in the numbers in the way you'd expect.

I'm frustrated with Pogba and Zlatan's poor finishing in front of goal, but I'd far rather they continue to get the chances and the variance to eventually fall our way, than not have the chances at all. As soon as we convert even an average amount of chances, people's perception of Pogba will massively shift as he will rack up far more goals, assists and the team, far more points. There is a massive difference between a player not being involved in matches and a player doing all the right things, but not getting the expected outputs whether that be due to variance or genuine poor quality at the key moments.

As I said before, if this is Pogba when he is bad, we're in for something good even when he's average.

Top post.

 

[red4ever 79]

There cannot be a single sane person who can defend that showing last night. It is one thing to have a bad game, all players do, but to show no desire or hunger to give it everything, and then to be smiling and laughing immediately after the final whistle, shows serious weakness in his application

 

[IhabX7]

This culture of scrutinizing and criticizing is the worst thing about football nowadays.

 

[Keenst]

Do you have the list of bad games Scholes and Giggs had at the age of 23? How are those two different from Pogba?

How much did we pay for those two?

 

[balaks]

What is it people want from central midfielders? In terms of central midfielders in the top 5 leagues with at least 12 appearances, Pogba is per 90 minutes:

• #1 for shots
• #3 for shots in box;
• #9 for successful dribbles;
• #13 accurate long passes;
• #16 for key passes;
  
• #18 for passes;
• #21 for aerial duels won;

out of 229 players.

In terms of a complete midfielder with the ball, Pogba is right up there. There's players who are better at certain aspects of the game (Kroos, Thiago), but very few are close to being the all-rounder that he is. Thiago's game is pretty incredible when you look at the numbers though: #3 for passes and #1 for interceptions is astonishing. Pogba doesn't look good here as he's #192 for tackles and #224 for interceptions. With the position he occupies on the pitch, he needs to be winning the ball back more. It'a also interesting to see that Kanté's game isn't quite borne out in the numbers in the way you'd expect.

I'm frustrated with Pogba and Zlatan's poor finishing in front of goal, but I'd far rather they continue to get the chances and the variance to eventually fall our way, than not have the chances at all. As soon as we convert even an average amount of chances, people's perception of Pogba will massively shift as he will rack up far more goals, assists and the team, far more points. There is a massive difference between a player not being involved in matches and a player doing all the right things, but not getting the expected outputs whether that be due to variance or genuine poor quality at the key moments.

As I said before, if this is Pogba when he is bad, we're in for something good even when he's average.

Ok so let's break those stats down a bit - number 1 for shots - how many of them have been on target and how many have resulted in goals? Meaningless stat without those additions.

Number 3 for shots in the box - please see above - again meaningless.

Number 9 for successful dribbles - ok this is better, no doubt he is a good dribbler of the ball.

Number 13 for accurate long passes - that's not even top 10 remember - is this not meant to be one of the strongest parts of his game?

Number 16 for key passes - this is a big one - he is not even in the top 15 which is not what you might expect given the expectations around him.

Number 18 for passes - Is this successful passes or just number of passes? Either way to be rated as number 18 is far from inspiring.

Number 21 for aerial duels won - for a guy as big as Pogba this is a terrible result for him - not even in top 20 - to look at him you would think he would be a beast in the air but this proves he isn't.

Ok out of 229 players as you say but he is the one valued higher than all of them in terms of transfer fee's and is right up there in terms of expectation and talent. I'm not too impressed by those stats.

Also - 'Pogba doesn't look good here as he's #192 for tackles and #224 for interceptions'

Out of 229 players he came 224th for interceptions, that is incredibly bad and his number 192 for tackles tells a big story also - ok so he is not a defensive player but my god you would think he would be a damn sight better than these two awful ratings suggest.

 

[Pexbo]

Ok so let's break those stats down a bit - number 1 for shots - how many of them have been on target and how many have resulted in goals? Meaningless stat without those additions.

Number 3 for shots in the box - please see above - again meaningless.

Number 9 for successful dribbles - ok this is better, no doubt he is a good dribbler of the ball.

Number 13 for accurate long passes - that's not even top 10 remember - is this not meant to be one of the strongest parts of his game?

Number 16 for key passes - this is a big one - he is not even in the top 15 which is not what you might expect given the expectations around him.

Number 18 for passes - Is this successful passes or just number of passes? Either way to be rated as number 18 is far from inspiring.

Number 21 for aerial duels won - for a guy as big as Pogba this is a terrible result for him - not even in top 20 - to look at him you would think he would be a beast in the air but this proves he isn't.

Ok out of 229 players as you say but he is the one valued higher than all of them in terms of transfer fee's and is right up there in terms of expectation and talent. I'm not too impressed by those stats.

Also - 'Pogba doesn't look good here as he's #192 for tackles and #224 for interceptions'

Out of 229 players he came 224th for interceptions, that is incredibly bad and his number 192 for tackles tells a big story also - ok so he is not a defensive player but my god you would think he would be a damn sight better than these two awful ratings suggest.

How is 21 for aerial duals bad? There's going to be a load of central defenders ahead of him who's job it is is to defend crosses in the box.

 

[Cassidy]

How is 21 for aerial duals bad? There's going to be a load of central defenders ahead of him who's job it is is to defend crosses in the box.

Indeed, but the thing is, apart from that its hard to argue with the rest of it...

EDIT: The interceptions and tackles stats for a CM is pathetic and it showed in how he didn't close down Kante yesterday for the goal

 

[balaks]

How is 21 for aerial duals bad? There's going to be a load of central defenders ahead of him who's job it is is to defend crosses in the box.

It's awful when you consider his physical attributes - this is a rating against fellow midfielders - not against central defenders.

This is what was said re: the ratings
'In terms of central midfielders in the top 5 leagues with at least 12 appearances' i.e its rating vs other midfielders.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

That's data from the top five leagues ffs. Any metric in the top 20 is quite an achievement, if you ask me.

The only worrying stuff is the crappy number of interceptions. Speaks volumes about how poor his movement is. Has a hell of a lot still to learn about basic stuff, like where to stand on the pitch.

 

[balaks]

That's data from the top five leagues ffs. Any metric in the top 20 is quite an achievement, if you ask me.

For your average player sure but this is a world record transfer midfielder who is supposedly one the best in the world. Are we to judge him against the very best or just the average?

 

[roonster09]

What is it people want from central midfielders? In terms of central midfielders in the top 5 leagues with at least 12 appearances, Pogba is per 90 minutes:

• #1 for shots
• #3 for shots in box;
• #9 for successful dribbles;
• #13 accurate long passes;
• #16 for key passes;
  
• #18 for passes;
• #21 for aerial duels won;

out of 229 players.

In terms of a complete midfielder with the ball, Pogba is right up there. There's players who are better at certain aspects of the game (Kroos, Thiago), but very few are close to being the all-rounder that he is. Thiago's game is pretty incredible when you look at the numbers though: #3 for passes and #1 for interceptions is astonishing. Pogba doesn't look good here as he's #192 for tackles and #224 for interceptions. With the position he occupies on the pitch, he needs to be winning the ball back more. It'a also interesting to see that Kanté's game isn't quite borne out in the numbers in the way you'd expect.

I'm frustrated with Pogba and Zlatan's poor finishing in front of goal, but I'd far rather they continue to get the chances and the variance to eventually fall our way, than not have the chances at all. As soon as we convert even an average amount of chances, people's perception of Pogba will massively shift as he will rack up far more goals, assists and the team, far more points. There is a massive difference between a player not being involved in matches and a player doing all the right things, but not getting the expected outputs whether that be due to variance or genuine poor quality at the key moments.

As I said before, if this is Pogba when he is bad, we're in for something good even when he's average.

You have link for this? Looks interesting.

 

[TMDaines]

number 1 for shots - how many of them have been on target and how many have resulted in goals? Meaningless stat without those additions.

Number 3 for shots in the box - please see above - again meaningless.

Number 16 for key passes - this is a big one - he is not even in the top 15 which is not what you might expect given the expectations around him.

Firstly of all, shots are a better predictor of future performance than goals are. The more you shoot, the more you score. Why have Ronaldo and Messi score so many over the years? Are they super clinical? Nope. They just get themselves the opportunity to shoot a lot.

Key passes is a better predictor of future performance than assists are too. Not by much but still worth looking at.

Secondly, you are looking at everything in isolation. I'll post comparisons of other top midfielders later to provide an idea of Pogba's game compared to others. Very few are appearing at the top of many of these tables.

Out of 229 players he came 224th for interceptions, that is incredibly bad and his number 192 for tackles tells a big story also - ok so he is not a defensive player but my god you would think he would be a damn sight better than these two awful ratings suggest.

Made an error here as I had the wrong filter on for these two. Pogba is #181 for tackles and #201 for interceptions. I'll amend the original post.

 

[Cassidy]

Firstly of all, shots are a better predictor of future performance than goals are. The more you shoot, the more you score. Why have Ronaldo and Messi score so many over the years? Are they super clinical? Nope. They just get themselves the opportunity to shoot a lot.

Key passes is a better predictor of future performance than assists are too. Not by much but still worth looking at.

Secondly, you are looking at everything in isolation. I'll post comparisons of other top midfielders later to provide an idea of Pogba's game compared to others. Very few are appearing at the top of many of these tables.


Made an error here as I had the wrong filter on for these two. Pogba is #181 for tackles and #201 for interceptions. I'll amend the original post.

Its still shite

 

[TMDaines]

You have link for this? Looks interesting.

https://www.whoscored.com/Statistics

Set Positions to MC and DMC, Appearances to More Than 12 and Accumulation to Every X Minute or Per 90 Mins.

 

[2 man midfield]

Jose reckoned he was the best player on the pitch by far. Seems he's playing mind games again.

 

[roonster09]

https://www.whoscored.com/Statistics

Set Positions to MC and DMC, Appearances to More Than 12 and Accumulation to Every X Minute or Per 90 Mins.

Thanks. Result page is showing players who also played as attacking midfielders.

Also for key passes it gives some good stats like how the key pass was made, whether it's from corner kick or free kick or through ball. Didn't access this part of the site before.

 

[TMDaines]

Thanks. Result page is showing players who also played as attacking midfielders.

Also for key passes it gives some good stats like how the key pass was made, whether it's from corner kick or free kick or through ball. Didn't access this part of the site before.

If you set it to just MC and DMC it shouldn't show AMC or other attacking midfield positions. The filter should only aggregate stats from games where players played as an MC or DMC too, which is useful.

 

[Pexbo]

It's awful when you consider his physical attributes - this is a rating against fellow midfielders - not against central defenders.

This is what was said re: the ratings
'In terms of central midfielders in the top 5 leagues with at least 12 appearances' i.e its rating vs other midfielders.

In that case as pogue says, it's even better.

 

[balaks]

In that case as pogue says, it's even better.

Eh? Have a think about that again mate. Unless you are being sarcastic in which case fair enough.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

People really expect him to boss the game with us down to ten men and his midfield partner the one who was sent off? This is probably not the best game to kill him for.

 

[Cassidy]

People really expect him to boss the game with us down to ten men and his midfield partner the one who was sent off? This is probably not the best game to kill him for.

Nah I think people expect him to show some fight and run to close people down instead of being lazy and jogging... too much to ask for though I guess

I mean lets not criticise his laziness.