The whole Pogba-Zidane comparison is bizarre imho. Very different players. Plus Zidane was a pure #10 in a different era of football
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When you talk about C.Ronaldo cut off the ineffective play, then you already admit thing Ronaldinho, Zidane, El Fenomenon Ronaldo... is superior than other players, they entertain and influent game the same time with their trick at the same time. The above lessen the rivalry, tension in game that even opponent supporters can enjoy the entertainment of their performance in game despite on the defeat side. With Messi and Ronaldo after he abandoned his showman game, as neutral or opponent supporter after defeat you can just admit they're good, and that's it. You don't want to meet their teams on regular basic win or lose. With the above players, you can say you love the game despite being the loser and wants some more.
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If you dont have that feeling with Messi, thats really on you to be fair because I know plenty that do. And tbh, what you're saying is okay but in no way the criteria for determining who the superior player is, a defender is almeast by default and inferior player to an attacker when you clinch by that idea. I think a lot of nostalgia holds gets in this discussion anyway, to act as if Ronaldinho, Zodane were pure magic and entertainment someone like Messi hasnt been from his debut up till now, is bizarre. Entertainment is more than flicks and actually a rather personal thing.
I can't disagree since it's personal preference. Messi was entertaining pre Pep, but has since much cultured in my own view.
Superiority I meant is about capturing people heart during game, unpredictability of their play from supporter point of view which IMO Messi lacks. For quite long, Messi and Ronaldo play is very predictable (not that's stoppable for defenders) and repetitive for viewer.
Yes, I concede it may be personal thing and in no way making this into who's right or wrong matter.
Edit: for some reason this below part disappeared in my post.
Personally, I followed Serie A for Ronaldo and picked up Zidane on the rise and tune in Inter and Juventus games despite I had nothing to do with those clubs. Then La Liga of course and Real Madrid game. I can use the same "follow" term with Barcelona during Ronaldinho peak year. Not so much with Messi since Pep. Serie A and La Liga pace is very slow especially back in the day, and hard to be entertained and these players made the difference and the main lure even in games vs some shitty opponents. So not so much about nostalgia thing for me
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Funnily enough if I had to choose someone from that midfield 4, I would choose to compare him with Socrates. Operates higher up the pitch, tall, technique, vision, shooting.
Tbf Pogba is more of a central midfielder than an attacking one positioned relatively higher up the pitch. Besides, Socrates fairly lackadaisical game off the ball is in stark contrast to Pogba's but I can see where you are coming from with their similar lanky, technical and elegant playing style.
its a safe bet. Like saying no Portuguese player will be as good as Ronaldo, or no French striker will be as good as Henry. One in a kind players
But what's the point saying that though seeing as time goes on and on forever and we cannot predict the future? There's always a better player around the corner no matter how inconceivable it seems in the present. Even Messi can and will be eventually surpassed. Records are there to be broken and who is to say he won't be French or Portuguese.
No he won't.
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People probably said that about Maradona, who knows if it'll happen but there's a good chance he will.
No, falcao is the better comparison, but i don't think pogba is quite like that either. The player he most reminds me of is Matthaus. Pogba doesn't control the flow of the game, he imposes his physicality on it. People tend to get too taken away by his vision and dribbling, which while very good, don't really compare to a true #10
Maradona never scored that many. There was room for something extra. Messi is the complete attacking player. A creative master. a skilful master. a goal scoring master
No, it isn't, as it is a statement that implies Pogba himself is your regular 'bright young talent' as opposed to being, quite obviously, in my opinion, made from completely different stuff from the rest and a one-off level of talent himself.
It isn't he same thing saying Pogba and Nasri will be the new Zidane. Pogba can argue to be the best midfielder in the world already, he's not just some kid somewhere who has shown a great first touch.
Maradona could not be bettered or matched, but then Messi came along. Zidane can possibly be bettered or matched. If Pogba himself can just transfer his form from the last 6 weeks into a major tournament, he'll be spoken of in that bracket. If United can return to former glory with him in the team, I think he'll get the credit. A way to go yet though.
Zidane is one of the 10 greatest players of all time. Honestly, it's hard to think Pogba could reach that level. But it's also not a ludicrous proposition. And that speaks volume
This does not even make sense as a response to highlighted bit. If you mean he won't, then I can't argue with your foresight. I am only mortal.
He could not give a shit and still be better than anyone out there
No, I don't think he would have enough motivation to perform at that level.
I agree Messi is the best attacker we've ever seen, but as the game and humans evolve it's possible. I think having Ronaldo around at the same time has also pushed him into that category, without their rivalry I wonder if he would have pushed himself so far.
This is what people don't seem to get. They put these legends into an untouchable category. Zidane was the best midfielder of his generation but he only really came into his own around 24/25 years old. Pogba is 23, without any question the most talented midfielder of his generation and has everything in his skillset to reach that level.
All this talk about Zizou made me remember how good Keane was to dominate a midfield with both Zidane and Davids. I personally won't really care much if Paul doesn't become a 15-20 p/y goalscorer as long as he influences the game on both ends as much as Keano.
Zidane is an incredible player. Magesterial. But people tend to only remember the highlights not the lowlights.
I am sure by the end of his career Pogba will have a couple of major defining moments. And a handful of awesome seasons.
Not even in his home country is he regarded the best midfielder in the world as he hasn't proven much at world level. That said, he is up there so I get you.
Although we need to move away from the idea that 'the only difference between Pogba and Zidane was the ability to do it at a major tournament,' which I gather from this 'form of 6 weeks transfer nonsense.' What about their impact on the teams they play in? How about the fact it requires perfect conditions just for Pogba to perform consistently, where as Zidane's mere appearance on the pitch boosts the entire teams capabilities? Even non special players. There is a long, long way before Pogba is spoken about in that bracket to be honest. Zidane walked into the best team in Europe (Juve), in the best league in the world and was instantly the star, earning the 3rd best player in the entire world monikor, alongside the likes of Bergkamp. He then did the same at Real Madrid.
That said, you are right, Zidane can be bettered of course. If Ronaldinho took his career seriously, he would've been the bigger legend.
I also admit it is an exaggeration to suggest that it is a safe bet Zidane will not be surpassed by Pogba, as he does have bags of talent.
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Probably not but what else is there to add to an attacker? maybe workrate? If Alexis Sanchez had Messi's ability, would we regard him a better player?
I think flamboyance is the only thing Messi truly lacks, could you imagine a combination of Messi and Ronaldinho?
It would be an abomination.I think flamboyance is the only thing Messi truly lacks, could you imagine a combination of Messi and Ronaldinho?
To simplify and end this debate so we can go back to marvel at pogba as we should
Is he likely to reach Zidane's level? No. Is it possible he will reach Zidane's level? Yes. Will he become at least 75/80% of Zidane? Only way he doesn't is a catastrophic injury.
He will be remembered as one of the greatest midfielders ever. Not likely, but possibly, THE greatest midfielder ever
Is he likely to reach Zidane's level? No. Is it possible he will reach Zidane's level? Yes. Will he become at least 75/80% of Zidane? Only way he doesn't is a catastrophic injury.
He will be remembered as one of the greatest midfielders ever. Not likely, but possibly, THE greatest midfielder ever
Maradona carried pretty average teams to success such as Napoli and Argentina at the time. Messi hasn't done that. It's difficult to compare eras as standards change, lessons are learned etc.
There's always an opportunity in future for someone to be better than Messi, then further in future better than them. Of course there is! Records are made to be broken. Every sport evolves, minor gains are made everywhere from the sportsmen/women themselves, to the science, techniques, equipment, training, harnessing young talent and helping it reach its potential. Standing on the shoulders of giants and all that.
It's hard to believe now but I believe it'll happen, history shows it will in countless sports.
All very fair points, much of which I can't argue. It is always difficult to make my claims about Zidane, as it is often taken in the other extreme so as to imply that I don't think he was an amazing footballer.
I do think he was overrated, and pushed ahead of other greats due to a few moments, but not that he was made into a great player by a few moments. I think Rivaldo and Ronaldinho at their Barcelona best were better players. I also think Ronaldo was the best player of his, or just about any other era for that matter.
I also think Pogba can end up in the category of the aforementioned players, he is that gifted. I also think it is unfair the way you speak of the requirements needed for him to produce his best in comparison to Zidane.
In today's game, Zidane would also need to play in a 3 man midfield. Good as he was, his abilities would need to be accommodated too, as he didn't do as much as Pogba can defensively, nor did he compensate with 20 goals.
In terms of impact on the team, Pogba of course is not Zidane level yet, I don't disagree. Still, he certainly makes the whole team play better too, and if we lost him for a sustained period, the team would drop significantly.
This is a strange thing to say. Zidane was a pure #10. He was never a CM
Pogba still needs to learn to do the simple things well, which is the hallmark of a truly great player.
He has everything else, granted, but until he gets that consistency in releasing the ball at the right time, he can't really be mentioned in the same league as Zidane and the rest.
He has everything else, granted, but until he gets that consistency in releasing the ball at the right time, he can't really be mentioned in the same league as Zidane and the rest.
He wasnt
He still needs to be put into the lineup somewhere. I was responding to an accusation that Zidane is the one who serves the team, whereas Pogba needs stabilisers of sorts to perform.
Just didn't think it was a fair statement. Zidane was often played on the left himself, similarly to Pogba. He probably wouldn't play just behind the striker as such today, as his goal output may be considered too low. Chances are, he'd start on the left, just like Silva for example, on the basis that the men in the middle would do the running for him.
Zidane spent most of his career playing as classic #10, either behind 2 strikers or in a 4-2-3-1 formation. At real madrid he played in a sort of 4-2-2-2, with complete freedom of movement. He played where he wanted. And he played mostly in the final third
The point that was made i think was that pogba needs a specific midfield set-up to be effective, whereas zidane did not. That's partially true, but it's simply because pogba's current skillset is less "traditional" than zidane's was. I'm sure pogba will become just as effective as a CM in a midfield two once he gets used to it. There's also the specific job he's been given to consider, too. Personally, i think Pogba could also play as a false-LM in a midfield 4, like what iniesta did for spain
The point that was made i think was that pogba needs a specific midfield set-up to be effective, whereas zidane did not. That's partially true, but it's simply because pogba's current skillset is less "traditional" than zidane's was. I'm sure pogba will become just as effective as a CM in a midfield two once he gets used to it. There's also the specific job he's been given to consider, too. Personally, i think Pogba could also play as a false-LM in a midfield 4, like what iniesta did for spain
Of course he's among the best midfielders in the world already. You'd be hard pressed to mention five midfielders who are indisputably better than him.
I love how I kicked off a huge debate over Zidane vs Pogba by just one bold prediction 
Only a fool would play Pogba in a midfield 2. You would play Iniesta or Zidane in that position ? No !
I remind you that Pogba wore the #10 of the Juventus, the same that had Platini, Baggio and Del Piero for example before him. A number that has been denied to many great players but when Pogba asked it, Juventus gave him because he was the fuoriclasse of the club and the italian league.
Pogba isn't a next Roy Keane or a next Vieira. He is more offensive, more technical, more elegant...in short Pogba is an AM not a CDM or a CM. With Juve he played as a false left winger in a 442 againt Bayern in the first legs and in the #10 position in the second legs behind Morata.
And most of the time, he played in a 352 with a lot of freedom as AM with Khedira and Marchisio as defensive midfielders..They were the water carriers and Pogba the offensive midfielder, that's why he was the one who made the most assist in Italy last year ( 12 ).
Pogba is Pogba, an offensive midfielder who has his OWN position and will redefine a new era.
He didn't come here to play in a midfield two, even if supporters who understand nothing about football dream that he changes his game to do it.
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You just hope Deschamps learns this too. He doesn't seem to want to get the best out of him.
Btw - Zidane was not great on a game to game basis by the time he got to Madrid. I never watched him at Juve regularly (too young) but at Madrid I watched a lot of their games. But this is probably more to do with the time he was playing rather than himself. I feel like the top players now are a lot more consistent than their previous counterparts.
Great players always get better after the fact. Once you retire, your career is generally remembered as some sort of montage or highlight reel of all of your best moments, and all of your honours. Compressed into about 10 mins worth of footage to account for 10+ years.
He could play there, in time. Pogba is a CAM in the same way lampard or gerrard where. He's not a pure #10, lacks the ability to create space for himself and has trouble navigating tight spaces. Hence the need for him to start 20-30 meters behind where a pure #10 would play, because he needs more space in front of him. I more or less agree with you on the rest
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