Pathetic, pitiful, disgraceful and an absolute embarrassment

GloryHunter07 said:
Imagine the post match thread after we lost 6-4 to Leicester.
Click to expand...

You'd think there'd be some kinda middle ground for

a) Arguably the wealthiest football club in world football
b) Capable and willing to spend £100ms on transfer as shown in the last few seasons
c) Where the manager has complete and utter freedom over transfers, selections and minimal external politics (i.e. no nutters like Perez and co)

I mean even Stoke got sick of Pulis' shit on a stick football and moved on, despite him producing results. And they have/aren't capable spending anywhere near as much as we have.
 
Question234 said:
No way, saying this makes you clueless. The second BFS went off and was replaced by fellaini we lost control of the midfield which basically lost us the game. Our forwards are kids with potential relatively new to playing at this level and a captain in decline who cannot lead by example (bar mata who never started). I'm not making excuses for LVG, all of the above can be blamed on him but lets not shit all over the team, we are drawing 0-0 not getting completely outclassed and hammered in everygame. The problem only exists in the final third.
Our midfield has no real idea, yet, with regards to controlling the tempo of a game, initiating attacks, and, most importantly, moving. Something similar can be said of our forwards.

The problem doesn't just lie in the final third, football is a team game. Everyone must contribute, which isn't the case for us. As a team, we don't know how to create or score. That's not just the fault of the forwards.

Since the 3-0 hammering by Arsenal, we've played 10 games in which we have scored 11 goals. Borderline clueless. In fact 8 goals in our last 9 is pretty fecking shit.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
SkeppyRed said:
Is it possible the players were deflated by how shit the atmosphere was?

The majority of old Trafford doesn't get behind the team anymore regardless of the quality of football on show.

People where moaning about the corporate atmosphere ten years ago, but even then it was one hundred times better than it is now. Something should be done but I can only see it getting worse unfortunately.
Click to expand...

Good points. In the 60s and 70s, you'd see supporters leaving early from the cantilever stand and they'd be booed and jeered by the Stretford End as 'part-time supporters'. No matter what was happening on the pitch, you'd stand and sing until the end, then join the crush outside. Nowadays, there is no atmosphere. During the second half, you could here the PA announcer as clear as a bell over the disgruntled murmurs of the crowd.

A standing section would be a good start but I can't see the nannies that govern the game (and the country) going for that.
 
Skills said:
You'd think there'd be some kinda middle ground for

a) Arguably the wealthiest football club in world football
b) Capable and willing to spend £100ms on transfer as shown in the last few seasons
c) Where the manager has complete and utter freedom over transfers, selections and minimal external politics (i.e. no nutters like Perez and co)

I mean even Stoke got sick of Pulis' shit on a stick football and moved on, despite him producing results. And they have/aren't capable spending anywhere near as much as we have.
Click to expand...

This raises another issue for me. As a club we're arguably a dream job.

Irrespective of what Van Gaal may or may not have achieved since he's been here, I don;t believe there are not better options out there who would have achieved more and who can get more out pf a side full of internationals.

Even if the problem is the players lack of motivation or quality, after 18 months in charge that still falls at his door as he either can't motivate the players or communicate his ideas properly, or he should have addressed the lack of quality in the transfer market.

At the end of the day he will get more time, as he probably should, but unless there is some real progress in terms of performances and most important, obvious direction and progress then come the summer the board should be seriously considering their position.
 
Barca84 said:
.......

It's a long time ago now but the comparisons to Dave Sexton's dour United are valid. It was fecking torturous watching that team and it's remarkably similar now in terms of the cautious and conservative football.

This is going to be a very long season if we continue like this.
Click to expand...
Sexton is a fair comparison to what we see now. The players don't play with joy, and the robotic nature of the play seems to affect the emotional link to the supporters. The next pass is also very predictable. PSV used that to their advantage last night.

iKeano said:
This. Great post @verminater. I'm a match goer myself & on a cold, miserable Wednesday in November, there was very little to keep me rooted to my spot until the 93'rd minute!
Click to expand...
Thanks.
People around me, who are usually critical of early leavers, left early themselves. It was like the whole ground knew there would be no further action with 20 minutes to play.
 
Feed Me said:
Not really, no. We are in a considerably better position now. I don't think the players or manager deserve the widespread criticism they're getting - it's absolutely scathing.
Click to expand...

So you're accusing United fans of hyperbole and overreacting by labeling all of them 'pathetic, pitiful, disgraceful and an absolute embarrassment'?
 
Moriarty said:
Good points. In the 60s and 70s, you'd see supporters leaving early from the cantilever stand and they'd be booed and jeered by the Stretford End as 'part-time supporters'. No matter what was happening on the pitch, you'd stand and sing until the end, then join the crush outside. Nowadays, there is no atmosphere. During the second half, you could here the PA announcer as clear as a bell over the disgruntled murmurs of the crowd.

A standing section would be a good start but I can't see the nannies that govern the game (and the country) going for that.
Click to expand...

I'm always amazed when foreign players/managers come into English football and talk about the match atmosphere here as being so good. It simply isn't anymore and, certainly at United, hasn't been for some time. You're right - there is zero chance of standing sections but it's what we need. Standing at £20 a ticket and hey presto you've got some noise

Respect though to the away support who are keeping the flag flying. I think it was Ducker who described them recently as "a formidable bunch"
 
Feed Me said:
Not really, no. We are in a considerably better position now. I don't think the players or manager deserve the widespread criticism they're getting - it's absolutely scathing.
Click to expand...
The present criticism is not about results. There's no arguing we're in a healthy position in the league and still in with a chance to qualify for the knockout stages of Champions league. The fans are just fed up with the manner of our play. If United fans were just success orientated they'd be satisfied with our present status. United are about more than just results.
 
Skills said:
You'd think there'd be some kinda middle ground for

a) Arguably the wealthiest football club in world football
b) Capable and willing to spend £100ms on transfer as shown in the last few seasons
c) Where the manager has complete and utter freedom over transfers, selections and minimal external politics (i.e. no nutters like Perez and co)

I mean even Stoke got sick of Pulis' shit on a stick football and moved on, despite him producing results. And they have/aren't capable spending anywhere near as much as we have.
Click to expand...
There is a middle ground but listening to some supporters on 5 live and on the Caf they would be happy as long as we played attacking football regardless of result.
 
Feed Me said:
Not really, no. We are in a considerably better position now. I don't think the players or manager deserve the widespread criticism they're getting - it's absolutely scathing.
Click to expand...
Being 2nd in the table is lovely. Being the most boring, dull and uninspiring team in the EPL isnt lovely. I may be alone in this but I would rather be 5th in the table and thrilling to watch than our current scenario.
 
Barca84 said:
I'm always amazed when foreign players/managers come into English football and talk about the match atmosphere here as being so good. It simply isn't anymore and, certainly at United, hasn't been for some time. You're right - there is zero chance of standing sections but it's what we need. Standing at £20 a ticket and hey presto you've got some noise

Respect though to the away support who are keeping the flag flying. I think it was Ducker who described them recently as "a formidable bunch"
Click to expand...

Our away support has always been brilliant, no matter what. Home games are so sanitized these days that ripples of applause greet the teams onto the field along with some ghastly pop anthem. There's a really good short video that provides a then-and-now perspective on this:

I normally get accused of being a moaning old fart who lives in the past, and that may well be true, but I do think watching United even 20 years ago was far more exciting for a fan than it is today.
 
verminater said:
I am a season ticket holder. That means the club already has my money, so would they even notice my absence? People watching tv notice when you leave early, if the camera points that way. Yet that is what is being criticised here.
I've also been a match goer in some sense, since Docherty was manager.I have seen my share of dire performances and usually stay til the end and never boo. None of this gives me a right to say how other attendees should react, or feel about our performance. Some supporters make far greater sacrifices than me to get to games, so I'd say their views probably count more than mine, and it is up to them how they display their frustration.

This was one match, under one manager, in the life of Man Utd, so it is no big thing in the grand scheme, but that second half was enough to test the resolve of anybody. It was as devoid of passion or effort as I can remember. Not being good enough is one thing. Not trying is another thing entirely.
Click to expand...

Either you have misinterpreted my point or I have failed to make it clearly enough. Firstly, now emotions are running a bit more evenly, I want to say that I have the utmost respect for regular match going fans - I know a number myself - because it's a big financial and time commitment.

The thread I made wasn't only about fans leaving early. That, in itself, isn't particularly offensive, it's been happening in football for years. But there's an absolutely toxic atmosphere around the club at the moment and, in my opinion, it's not particularly befitting of the position we're in. We could go fecking top this weekend! The mood amongst the fan base isn't being helped by former players in the media who are giving an irresponsible commentary on the club's fortunes and it's colouring fans' perceptions in an excessively negative light.

Yes, the football isn't wonderful, but feck me, if we stand back and look at the bigger picture, is there really cause for such widespread discord?

I genuinely see major progress since Van Gaal took over.
 
rpitroda said:
Except there is obviously a balance between the two.

@Feed Me what you're not appreciating is that winning is not everything. Plenty of people complained in Fergusons last few years too.

LVGs Man Utd has made me find football boring. No amount of trophies he delivers would make us fun to watch.
Click to expand...

You make a fair point.

I'd love for United to win and play entertaining football. If we can't entertain, though, I still want us to win.

As things stand, Van Gaal is getting results for us and he has picked us up off the canvas after the disaster that was Moyes.

The club is in a much healthier state again and moving in the right direction.
 
VP said:
So you're accusing United fans of hyperbole and overreacting by labeling all of them 'pathetic, pitiful, disgraceful and an absolute embarrassment'?
Click to expand...

Granted, the thread title was OTT. I'm prone to that...
 
Sultan said:
The present criticism is not about results. There's no arguing we're in a healthy position in the league and still in with a chance to qualify for the knockout stages of Champions league. The fans are just fed up with the manner of our play. If United fans were just success orientated they'd be satisfied with our present status. United are about more than just results.
Click to expand...

I can't argue on the issue of style, Sults. I admit we are a bit crap to watch. My annoyance is that there are enough examples of us playing good football under Van Gaal, and in big matches, so not sure why we're not able to consistently produce.

My thinking is that the manager has clearly done a good job of reviving the club and getting it back on an even keel. He seems to be putting good foundations down and there's going to be plenty for his successor to work with. We're only missing a sprinkling of attacking impetus.
 
Stack said:
Being 2nd in the table is lovely. Being the most boring, dull and uninspiring team in the EPL isnt lovely. I may be alone in this but I would rather be 5th in the table and thrilling to watch than our current scenario.
Click to expand...

Disagree. It's a tired cliche, but at least we're picking up points that put us bang in the title race despite not playing well. For all we know, we may kick into gear this season like we did last Spring.
 
Moriarty said:
Our away support has always been brilliant, no matter what. Home games are so sanitized these days that ripples of applause greet the teams onto the field along with some ghastly pop anthem. There's a really good short video that provides a then-and-now perspective on this:

I normally get accused of being a moaning old fart who lives in the past, and that may well be true, but I do think watching United even 20 years ago was far more exciting for a fan than it is today.
Click to expand...


Good video cheers for posting that. Watching United in the past has most definitely been more exciting and that's a fact.
 
Feed Me said:
Disagree. It's a tired cliche, but at least we're picking up points that put us bang in the title race despite not playing well. For all we know, we may kick into gear this season like we did last Spring.
Click to expand...

Was that the four or five games where we looked half decent - before going back to what we see now?

At the time I was convinced we'd "clicked" and would see much improved performances overall. It wasn't the case, and given what's happened since I'm now more inclined to think it was an accident that Van Gaal's constant changing of the side and the system eventually produced something that worked - for a while.

Picking up points while playing badly is a positive - compared to the alternative. You won;t win titles playing poor football all season and not scoring enough goals. But for a bit of luck we'd be out of the title race by now in my opinion.
 
I'm still reeling from the poster in the first page of this thread saying that with the next two games being away from home, the real fans can get behind the team. FFS. What people forget is that going to the game is a two-way street: the fans get behind the team - yes, but the team need to exhibit traits and a willingness to play up and spark the fans. The home fans come every game with enthusiasm and hope.........after 20 mins the team has set out its stall playing tumescent, side to side possession "football", knocking the stuffing out of the fans. The cheers we get for getting a corner now.........FFS. It almost made me forget about the "elite" away fans, the "true" United fans. Yes, they are good supporters, but that's it. An elitist view which is one of the many reasons why Utd fans get bad press. They are no better than say 50-60% of the home fans. The bottom line: we all love United and want them to entertain and win.
 
Irrational. said:
:lol::lol:

This is the biggest u-turn since Slippy G turned down a move to Chelsea after Scousers threatened to nick the hubcaps from his Range Rover.
Click to expand...

You're right, it does represent a massive u-turn.

For what feels like the millionth time, I was feeling extremely fecking twitchy last season, post-Moyes, and completely went off at the deep end. I've been on the Caf for over a decade by the way, everyone is going to have a shocker at one point or another during that sort of period of time. For what it's worth, you could argue that I had more cause - results wise - than a lot of people on here do today.

Thing is, looking at the progress we've made since he took over, I do think Van Gaal deserves credit, and I do think the criticism he's facing is beyond the pale.

We've got fans who want him strung up because the entertainment factor isn't quite there. Many of the same fans refuse to give credit where it's due: We're only second in the league, because it's a poor league. It wasn't a fecking poor league a week or two ago when City and Arse were the top two! We've only got the best defensive record around because Van Gaal insists on possession, as though keeping the ball is a footballing crime. My favourite one is the criticism the manager gets for a lack of entertainment when it's the players failing to put the bloody ball in the net.

Van Gaal isn't without his faults, but it's turned into a witch hunt and, sadly, our fans are at the heart of it.

Like I said in another thread, it's going to be funny on here when we're top on Saturday.
 
@Feed Me I agree that Van Gaal deserves a bit more credit than he is getting at the moment but I dont quite understand your last line. Do you feel like there are posters who wont want us to go top because it will undermine the validity of their criticism? Surely most of them are pretty clear that the performances and the results are separate issues and it is only the performances they arent pleased with. So what difference does our league position make to that?

I dont think your characterisation of their complaints is quite right either. "We're only second because its a poor league". There is an element of that I guess (and I think there's a grain of truth in it as well) but I think the more frequently heard gripe is that possession as a form of defence is boring. And it is legitimate to hold the manager, and not the players, accountable, if the players are playing a certain way because they have been instructed to do so by the manager. (And if they are not playing the way the manager is instructing them to then you have to ask whether he is a competent manager.)

Anyway, for all those criticisms of your post, I agree with your fundamental position. Its a results business and the results have been good (but not amazing) and I believe (though without a great deal of evidence to back it up) that Van Gaal wants us to play better than this, and that we will, eventually.
 
[
Feed Me said:
You're right, it does represent a massive u-turn.

For what feels like the millionth time, I was feeling extremely fecking twitchy last season, post-Moyes, and completely went off at the deep end. I've been on the Caf for over a decade by the way, everyone is going to have a shocker at one point or another during that sort of period of time. For what it's worth, you could argue that I had more cause - results wise - than a lot of people on here do today.

Thing is, looking at the progress we've made since he took over, I do think Van Gaal deserves credit, and I do think the criticism he's facing is beyond the pale.

We've got fans who want him strung up because the entertainment factor isn't quite there. Many of the same fans refuse to give credit where it's due: We're only second in the league, because it's a poor league. It wasn't a fecking poor league a week or two ago when City and Arse were the top two! We've only got the best defensive record around because Van Gaal insists on possession, as though keeping the ball is a footballing crime. My favourite one is the criticism the manager gets for a lack of entertainment when it's the players failing to put the bloody ball in the net.

Van Gaal isn't without his faults, but it's turned into a witch hunt and, sadly, our fans are at the heart of it.

Like I said in another thread, it's going to be funny on here when we're top on Saturday.
Click to expand...

You could argue that but it would be an argument you'd lose. What made your sack Van Gaal thread so silly was its prematurity, rather than the suggestion itself (which, ironically, seems a lot less nonsensical now than it did then)

Everyone with even an ounce of common sense was going to give him at least a season to get things turned round and get the team playing the way he wants. As we're almost half way through season number two, the criticism is much better informed and hence, deserved.
 
Adebesi said:
@Feed Me I agree that Van Gaal deserves a bit more credit than he is getting at the moment but I dont quite understand your last line. Do you feel like there are posters who wont want us to go top because it will undermine the validity of their criticism? Surely most of them are pretty clear that the performances and the results are separate issues and it is only the performances they arent pleased with. So what difference does our league position make to that?

I dont think your characterisation of their complaints is quite right either. "We're only second because its a poor league". There is an element of that I guess (and I think there's a grain of truth in it as well) but I think the more frequently heard gripe is that possession as a form of defence is boring. And it is legitimate to hold the manager, and not the players, accountable, if the players are playing a certain way because they have been instructed to do so by the manager. (And if they are not playing the way the manager is instructing them to then you have to ask whether he is a competent manager.)

Anyway, for all those criticisms of your post, I agree with your fundamental position. Its a results business and the results have been good (but not amazing) and I believe (though without a great deal of evidence to back it up) that Van Gaal wants us to play better than this, and that we will, eventually.
Click to expand...

I think certain anti-Van Gaal posters will be caught between a rock and a hard place if we beat Leicester on Saturday. Of course, as fans of the club, they'll be excited to be top, but I've no doubt whatsoever that the usual suspects will be caveating the shit out of our position. You don't go top after fourteen games with a useless manager, it would be nice for the analysis of our gaffer to be a bit more even handed. Criticisms over the team's style carry more weight when the posters delivering them are constructive and balanced in their feedback; i.e. they're prepared to point out the positives at the same time. There's a big clutch of posters on the Caf whose output on Van Gaal is pretty much exclusively negative and they always find a way to denigrate the good stuff happening at the club, all because of the style, which is just one aspect of the bigger picture.

Your final point is very instructive. There's no way Van Gaal is - especially with the ruck of criticism - asking his players to go out and bore the masses to death. They need to take some responsibility on the pitch.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
These are the games you want to be in control of -- having to go to fecking Germany and win is not an easy task. Aside from that, worst performance I can remember in a long time.
Click to expand...

My friend, I think you have forgotten our performance against Middlesborough a few weeks back.
I would say that was about as bad it could realistically gets.
If we'd kept playing for another 3 hours, we'd still have failed to score.
I still remember when the commentator joked that LVG had left the stadium early, to avoid the traffic. :lol: This comment was made because it was a such a boring match to watch. And it went on for over 2 hours.
FWIW though, we didn't concede in open play. So, I guess that's a positive.

Skills said:
I mean even Stoke got sick of Pulis' shit on a stick football and moved on, despite him producing results. And they have/aren't capable spending anywhere near as much as we have.
Click to expand...

:lol:
 
Pogue Mahone said:
[


You could argue that but it would be an argument you'd lose. What made your sack Van Gaal thread so silly was its prematurity, rather than the suggestion itself (which, ironically, seems a lot less nonsensical now than it did then)

Everyone with even an ounce of common sense was going to give him at least a season to get things turned round and get the team playing the way he wants. As we're almost half way through season number two, the criticism is much better informed and hence, deserved.
Click to expand...

Clearly common sense wasn't a factor when I posted that God-forsaken thread! There's no point in trying to rationalise such epicuntery, and I've held my hands up a million times, it was completely ill-considered.

Constructive criticism is all well and good, but it seems to me that the point has been reached where Van Gaal isn't being given any credit for all the good stuff. Yes, the defensive solidity may be a consequence of more conservative football but it's still worthy of praise. So is, for that matter, our general control over virtually every game we play.

I sound like a broken record, but I genuinely believe we're only a tiny way off in the attacking sense. An easy starting point would be to install Hererra in the midfield in place of one of the double-pivot. To be fair, Van Gaal's hands have been a bit tied by injuries. Hererra put a great ball in for the Memphis opener against Watford and who's to say he wouldn't have stayed in the team if he hadn't got crocked.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
[


You could argue that but it would be an argument you'd lose. What made your sack Van Gaal thread so silly was its prematurity, rather than the suggestion itself (which, ironically, seems a lot less nonsensical now than it did then)

Everyone with even an ounce of common sense was going to give him at least a season to get things turned round and get the team playing the way he wants. As we're almost half way through season number two, the criticism is much better informed and hence, deserved.
Click to expand...

Does it? I disagree with the thread back then and I disagree with most of the criticism right now.

But the timing of his last thread suggests it was at a time when the European qualification was in the balance. We had a tough run of games coming up and we weren't playing well. We were looking down the barrel of the gun of not qualifying for Europe again.

Now whats peoples excuse? Most of the people on here aren't match goers, if they were I could at least understand the argument that people are shelling out a lot of money to watch the team and deserve performances, but they're not. Despite not playing particularly well we're still having a fine season results wise.

I don't understand it all, really.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.