Paris terror attacks on Friday 13th

My thoughts are with the victim's families and everyone who experienced the horrific night in Paris.

These Islamic extremists are still looking for the most important thing: the hearts/minds of moderate Muslims. Which they'll never ever gain. They want "The West" to marginalise and degrade Muslims, in the hope that moderate Muslims are pushed towards extremism. France is a country which is proud of its values, but I get the feeling that there is an increasing movement of people who feel the values their country stands for are being undermined by Islam. The banning of the Burka in public; the banning of the headscarf in public service jobs; and the growing popularity of anti-Islam rhetoric serves as a reminder of that. The more prevalent these "anti-Islam" actions become, the more propaganda ISIS generates. I just hope France doesn't go down that route.
 
They are not savages- they only don't give two shits about a western style democracy that you are so desperately trying to export, because it is not compatible with their culture and their religion. Democracy will never ever ever be a political and cultural component of the society in any Islamic Republic.

I'm not trying to export anything. The US tried to and it failed. That's exactly what I'm saying, that they did it all wrong after they had "freed" Iraq. They destroyed a working system without thinking about how to rebuild a working system again. And the last part is simply not true there are enough Islamic states who are democratic so to say that it's just not compatible with their culture and religion is nonsense.
 
Why did he tried to enter 15 min late when he surely could easiy infiltrate into crowd before the kick-off. Not that I am not happy that he didn't managed to get into the stadium but I just wondered that when I read he did tried to enter 15 min late.
Also I wonder if other two wanted to get into a stadium after the first one but only after first guy failed to enter they decided to blew themselves.
My days yeah, imagine if he'd detonated it on a packed concourse. Doesn't even bare thinking about.
 
My days yeah, imagine if he'd detonated it on a packed concourse. Doesn't even bare thinking about.

Even beyond the deaths, could you imagine the power of the images? Bombings live on TV at a football stadium would linger in the public consciousness for a long, long time.
 
Complete nonsense. Religion will gradually go away and be replaced by secular democratic governance. Religion dominated nation states will not be sustainable in a world with secular norms.

Religion will not go away, what are you on about. Religion is growing. Islam for that matter is continuously growing. Where in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Europe do you see Islam on the decline?!
 
Religion will not go away, what are you on about. Religion is growing. Islam for that matter is continuously growing. Where in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Europe do you see Islam on the decline?!

Its not growing in the educated world, and since the developing world is quickly...well...developing, it stands to reason that religion is incompatible with a secular world with interdependent social norms.
 
Religion will not go away, what are you on about. Religion is growing. Islam for that matter is continuously growing. Where in the Middle East, Africa, Asia, Europe do you see Islam on the decline?!
Well, compared with 50 years ago, probably yes. That is because of the fall of Soviet Union (when people were forced to be atheists) and China becoming more open.

On the other side, the number of atheists now is increasing each day. In percentage, atheism is the fastest growing 'religion'. It also need to be said that the influence of religion is becoming lower than before.

Will it go away? I highly doubt that there is a chance of that in my lifetime. And I doubt that we'll see a secular Saudi Arabia (for example) in the next few decades.
 
The religion of peace.
Our inability to have a rational discussion about how we should address terrorism summed up by your post. Moments like this require outside the box thinking, but some would rather stick to the script. Spreading prejudice and hatred the way ISIS want you to. Nice one.
 
Our inability to have a rational discussion about how we should address terrorism summed up by your post. Moments like this require outside the box thinking, but some would rather stick to the script. Spreading prejudice and hatred the way ISIS want you to. Nice one.

I'm sorry, prejudice? What am I prejudging?

I'm perfectly happy to have a rational discussion on this issue, and I spend a lot of time doing just that (not so much on here these days). Unfortunately it's difficult to have a rational public discourse because the climate doesn't allow for it.
 
Its not growing in the educated world, and since the developing world is quickly...well...developing, it stands to reason that religion is incompatible with a secular world with interdependent social norms.

Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the developing China and Latin America. As for Islam, according to all research it is the fastest growing religion globally and, in context of the point I was making earlier, it will disappear when exactly? In two thousand years from now?
 
Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the developing China and Latin America. As for Islam, according to all research it is the fastest growing religion globally and, in context of the point I was making earlier, it will disappear when exactly? In two thousand years from now?

Give it 50-100 years and most of it will go the way of the do do bird. A developed world simply can't sustain or tolerate such nonsense if it is going to share social and cultural norms. The sooner technology educates the developing world and topples authoritarian states, the faster religion will evaporate.
 
Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the developing China and Latin America. As for Islam, according to all research it is the fastest growing religion globally and, in context of the point I was making earlier, it will disappear when exactly? In two thousand years from now?

When AI exterminates the human race for being a pointless waste of resources. It will definitely happen within that time frame, don't worry about it.
 
@Raoul
I think you are way too optimistic about the rational and discriminative powers of humanity en masse. The reason errors like the soul and afterlife arose is because they feel plausible and answer an emotional need. That they are irrational delusions (like religions) is a thought entertained by a worryingly small proportion of the populace.

The signs are actually of a shift into the dark ages of superstition and nationalism.
 
Give it 50-100 years and most of it will go the way of the do do bird. A developed world simply can't sustain or tolerate such nonsense if it is going to share social and cultural norms. The sooner technology educates the developing world and topples authoritarian states, the faster religion will evaporate.

Lol, technology is the answer. Technology that educates the developing world. Sure thing ;)
 
Lol, technology is the answer. Technology that educates the developing world. Sure thing ;)

Information is the answer, driven by technology. The more information the developing masses have access to, the more likely they are to secularize and integrate into global norms, and thus the less likely they are to fall into the compartmentalized trap of religion.
 
Information is the answer, driven by technology. The more information the developing masses have access to, the more likely they are to secularize and integrate into global norms, and thus the less likely they are to fall into the compartmentalized trap of religion.

The world doesn't need more information but transformation. Fecking data and technology won't stop people from hurting each other or becoming less selfish, there is a spiritual component to life as well. Something beyond a binary code, something that gives you a feeling of value, something that gives you comfort, and hope. What are you, a robot?
 
The world doesn't need more information but transformation. Fecking data and technology won't stop people from hurting each other or becoming less selfish, there is a spiritual component to life as well. Something beyond a binary code, something that gives you a feeling of value, something that gives you comfort, and hope. What are you, a robot?
How about a humanist who constructs moral and aesthetic values in a coherent manner? Rather than being told what to do like a child?
 
How about a humanist who constructs moral and aesthetic values in a coherent manner? Rather than being told what to do like a child?

Well that's something beautiful as well, and if this is where you find your happiness then that's just fantastic. Not sure what you mean with your second question.
 
How about a humanist who constructs moral and aesthetic values in a coherent manner? Rather than being told what to do like a child?

There's a problem with that - it's the reason Classical Athens handed Socrates a cup of hemlock.

Societies have to be constructed on shared values. If individuals, or groups, are permitted to make up their own, the society will suffer a lack of cohesion.
 
An excellent article from Douglas Murray in the Spectator (originally written after the Charlie Hebdo massacre but updated for this latest attack)

The West’s movement towards the truth is remarkably slow. We drag ourselves towards it painfully, inch by inch, after each bloody Islamist assault.

In France, Britain, Germany, America and nearly every other country in the world it remains government policy to say that any and all attacks carried out in the name of Mohammed have ‘nothing to do with Islam’. It was said by George W. Bush after 9/11, Tony Blair after 7/7 and Tony Abbott after the Sydney attack last month. It is what David Cameron said after two British extremists cut off the head of Drummer Lee Rigby in London, when ‘Jihadi John’ cut off the head of aid worker Alan Henning in the ‘Islamic State’ and when Islamic extremists attacked a Kenyan mall, separated the Muslims from the Christians and shot the latter in the head. It was what President François Hollande said after the massacre of journalists and Jews in Paris in January. And it is all that most politicians will be able to come out with again after the latest atrocities in Paris.

All these leaders are wrong. In private, they and their senior advisers often concede that they are telling a lie. The most sympathetic explanation is that they are telling a ‘noble lie’, provoked by a fear that we — the general public — are a lynch mob in waiting. ‘Noble’ or not, this lie is a mistake. First, because the general public do not rely on politicians for their information and can perfectly well read articles and books about Islam for themselves. Secondly, because the lie helps no one understand the threat we face. Thirdly, because it takes any heat off Muslims to deal with the bad traditions in their own religion. And fourthly, because unless mainstream politicians address these matters then one day perhaps the public will overtake their politicians to a truly alarming extent.

If politicians are so worried about this secondary ‘backlash’ problem then they would do well to remind us not to blame the jihadists’ actions on our peaceful compatriots and then deal with the primary problem — radical Islam — in order that no secondary, reactionary problem will ever grow.

Yet today our political class fuels both cause and nascent effect. Because the truth is there for all to see. To claim that people who punish people by killing them for blaspheming Islam while shouting ‘Allah is greatest’ has ‘nothing to do with Islam’ is madness. Because the violence of the Islamists is, truthfully, only to do with Islam: the worst version of Islam, certainly, but Islam nonetheless.

In January a chink was broken in this wall of disinformation when Sajid Javid, the only Muslim-born member of the British cabinet, and one of its brightest hopes, dipped a toe into this water. After the Charlie Hebdo attacks, he told the BBC: ‘The lazy answer would be to say that this has got nothing whatsoever to do with Islam or Muslims and that should be the end of that. That would be lazy and wrong.’ Sadly, he proceeded to utter the second most lazy thing one can say: ‘These people are using Islam, taking a peaceful religion and using it as a tool to carry out their activities.’

Here we land at the centre of the problem — a centre we have spent the last decade and a half trying to avoid: Islam is not a peaceful religion. No religion is, but Islam is especially not. Nor is it, as some ill-informed people say, solely a religion of war. There are many peaceful verses in the Quran which — luckily for us — the majority of Muslims live by. But it is, by no means, only a religion of peace.

I say this not because I hate Islam, nor do I have any special animus against Muslims, but simply because this is the verifiable truth based on the texts. Until we accept that we will never defeat the violence, we risk encouraging whole populations to take against all of Islam and abandon all those Muslims who are trying desperately to modernise, reform and de-literalise their faith. And — most importantly — we will give up our own traditions of free speech and historical inquiry and allow one religion to have an unbelievable advantage in the free marketplace of ideas.

It is not surprising that politicians have tried to avoid this debate by spinning a lie. The world would be an infinitely safer place if the historical Mohammed had behaved more like Buddha or Jesus. But he did not and an increasing number of people — Muslim and non-Muslim — have been able to learn this for themselves in recent years. But the light of modern critical inquiry which has begun to fall on Islam is a process which is already proving incredibly painful.

The ‘cartoon wars’ — which began when the Danish paper Jyllands-Posten published a set of cartoons in 2005 — are part of that. But as Flemming Rose, the man who commissioned those cartoons, said when I sat down with him earlier this year, there remains a deep ignorance in the West about what people like the Charlie Hebdo murderers wish to achieve. And we keep ducking it. As Rose said, ‘I wish we had addressed all this nine years ago.’

Contra the political leaders, the Charlie Hebdo murderers and the latest Paris attackers were not lunatics without motive, but highly motivated extremists intent on enforcing their Islamic ideas on 21st-century Europe. If you do not know the ideology — perverted or plausible though it may be — you can neither understand nor prevent such attacks. Nor, without knowing some Islamic history, could you understand why — whether in Mumbai or Paris — the Islamists always target the Jews.

Of course, some people are willing to give up a few of our rights. There seems, as Rose says in his book on the Danish cartoons affair,The Tyranny of Silence, some presumption that a diverse society requires greater limitations on speech, whereas of course the more diverse the society, the more diverse you are going to have to see your speech be. It is not just cartoons, but a whole system of inquiry which is being shut down in the West by way of hard intimidation and soft claims of offence-taking. The result is that, in contemporary Europe, Islam receives not an undue amount of criticism but a free ride which is unfair to all other religions. The night after the Charlie Hebdo atrocities I was pre-recording a Radio 4 programme. My fellow discussant was a very nice Muslim man who works to ‘de-radicalise’ extremists. We agreed on nearly everything. But at some point he said that one reason Muslims shouldn’t react to such cartoons is that Mohammed never objected to critics.

There may be some positive things to be said about Mohammed, but I thought this was pushing things too far and mentioned just one occasion when Mohammed didn’t welcome a critic. Asma bint Marwan was a female poetess who mocked the ‘Prophet’ and who, as a result, Mohammed had killed. It is in the texts. It is not a problem for me. But I can understand why it is a problem for decent Muslims. The moment I said this, my Muslim colleague went berserk. How dare I say this? I replied that it was in the Hadith and had a respectable chain of transmission (an important debate). He said it was a fabrication which he would not allow to stand. The upshot was that he refused to continue unless all mention of this was wiped from the recording. The BBC team agreed and I was left trying to find another way to express the same point. The broadcast had this ‘offensive’ fact left out.

I cannot imagine another religious discussion where this would happen, but it is perfectly normal when discussing Islam. On that occasion I chose one case, but I could have chosen many others, such as the hundreds of Jews Mohammed beheaded with his own hand. Again, that’s in the mainstream Islamic sources. I haven’t made it up. It used to be a problem for Muslims to rationalise, but now there are people trying to imitate such behaviour in our societies it has become a problem for all of us, and I don’t see why people in the free world should have to lie about what we read in historical texts.

We may all share a wish that these traditions were not there but they are and they look set to have serious consequences for us all. We might all agree that the history of Christianity has hardly been un-bloody. But is it not worth asking whether the history of Christianity would have been more bloody or less bloody if, instead of telling his followers to ‘turn the other cheek’, Jesus had called (even once) for his disciples to ‘slay’ non–believers and chop off their heads?

This is a problem with Islam — one that Muslims are going to have to work through. They could do so by a process which forces them to take their foundational texts less literally, or by an intellectually acceptable process of cherry-picking verses. Or prominent clerics could unite to declare the extremists non-Muslim. But there isn’t much hope of this happening. Last month, al-Azhar University in Cairo declared that although Isis members are terrorists they cannot be described as heretics.

We have spent 15 years pretending things about Islam, a complex religion with competing interpretations. It is true that most Muslims live their lives peacefully. But a sizeable portion (around 15 per cent and more in most surveys) follow a far more radical version. The remainder are sitting on a religion which is, in many of its current forms, a deeply unstable component. That has always been a problem for reformist Muslims. But the results of ongoing mass immigration to the West at the same time as a worldwide return to Islamic literalism means that this is now a problem for all of us. To stand even a chance of dealing with it, we are going to have to wake up to it and acknowledge it for what it is.

http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/20...paris-attacks-had-something-to-do-with-islam/
 
There's a problem with that - it's the reason Classical Athens handed Socrates a cup of hemlock.

Societies have to be constructed on shared values. If individuals, or groups, are permitted to make up their own, the society will suffer a lack of cohesion.
Constructing values in conjunction with others is fine.

Socrates' most serious crime was the blasphemy rather than the erosion of morals- it was that that really brought about his sentence.
Especially given that, if we believe Plato he really made no adequate attempt to defend himself, and therefore probably intended to martyr himself. He made no appeal to bring about the lighter sentence which would have been an alternative.
 
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That's utter BS because it doesn't apply to 99.9% of refugees. I worry for Europe because of nationalists and fashists across the continent, the rising egoism, lack of reflection and degree of hypocrisy.

Thats extremely naive. It is not black and white - extremist or non extremist. 0.1% of people may be directly involved in these attacks, but a far higher number either supports what they are doing or simply turns a blind eye. You have a region of the world that has tolerated Western culture for a long time as they have had no choice, but fundamentally is against everything we stand for. Given the choice between siding with the infidels in the West, or the extremists of their own faith, it's fairly obvious that many will see the latter as the lesser of two evils. That doesn't mean they're going to become part of the 0.1% that acts directly, but it does mean they have no interest in putting a stop to those that do. With the uncontrolled flow of refugees, we have no idea who is on our side, who is not, and who is simply here to kill us.
 
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Any form of politicising a current tragedy I find rather tasteless. Whether it's Palestine, Israel, or the ubiquitous "Where are all the headlines/retweets for the daily tragedies in X, Y and Z?"...It's a form of self important outrage that aims to make others feel bad for sharing well meaning sympathies.

It also not only implies the person in question is more caring than you - whilst both implicitly demeaning both you and the tragedy in question - it also implies they're better, because they're upset about the "right" things. Those things usually being things and causes they've more sympathy with, a sympathy that's inherently better than your sympathy.

The whole thing is rather intellectually nasty IMO. Agenda dressed up as egalitarianism.

Exactly this. Point scoring that aims solely to denigrate people who have simply expressed sympathy, and to get like-minded friends to agree with and congratulate them on how they don't give into mainstream opinion.
 
An excellent article from Douglas Murray in the Spectator (originally written after the Charlie Hebdo massacre but updated for this latest attack)



http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/20...paris-attacks-had-something-to-do-with-islam/

Great read. This article and a very enlightening one I read last night (which delved a little deeper into the ultimate goals of IS) have caused me to revisit some of what I previously thought.

I'll post the other article later when I get home.
 
@11101
Your view is not only full of prejudices but also extremely hypocritical.
 
Complete nonsense. Religion will gradually go away and be replaced by secular democratic governance. Religion dominated nation states will not be sustainable in a world with secular norms.
I know what you're saying here, but there are examples in Europe of democratic countries where Church and State have a working symbiotic relationship. Unlike France, where religious symbols are banned in schools etc, Italians freely display the crucifix in both government and commercial buildings (even our bank has one on the wall). When there's a saint's day, the local Mayor walks in the procession with the priest and the police and will frequently be seen in church wearing his sash and regalia. People identify as Catholic and respect the rites of passage (church weddings, baptism etc), but are not in the main 'religious'. If you're not religious, no-one minds.

It works for them. Religion still underpins their lives and there is great respect for the Church and the priest, but most people wouldn't describe themselves as devout Catholics.
 
What would put a halt to this madness in the long run aren't bombs and bullets but the emancipation of women in the region.
 
@Raoul
I think you are way too optimistic about the rational and discriminative powers of humanity en masse. The reason errors like the soul and afterlife arose is because they feel plausible and answer an emotional need. That they are irrational delusions (like religions) is a thought entertained by a worryingly small proportion of the populace.

The signs are actually of a shift into the dark ages of superstition and nationalism.
Agreed. Especially, nationalism, is set to ruin our present and our future.
 
Complete nonsense. Religion will gradually go away and be replaced by secular democratic governance. Religion dominated nation states will not be sustainable in a world with secular norms.
Eventually. But it'll take much longer than we think, or hope. My folks thought religion would be redundant by my generation. It's still a step back-step forward process that requires several generations to feck off.
 
Eventually. But it'll take much longer than we think, or hope. My folks thought religion would be redundant by my generation. It's still a step back-step forward process that requires several generations to feck off.
The projected stats say otherwise, particularly for Muslims.

pf_15.04.02_projectionstables8.png

http://www.pewforum.org/2015/04/02/religious-projections-2010-2050/
 
What would put a halt to this madness in the long run aren't bombs and bullets but the emancipation of women in the region.
Emancipation of women of which region? Because in this case, it's incredibly looking like the culprits were French nationals.
 
So as per that stat, close to 50% of the incremental population between 2010-2050 will be Muslim? :eek: