Paris terror attacks on Friday 13th

Sied said:
Under what other grounds can these kids be brainwashed like this?
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From a psychological perspective group think is pretty easy to influence. In this case religion is being used as one of the binding factors but you could use anything.

Create a sense of shared injustice, a common, ideally invisible enemy, promote a supposedly noble cause/greater good and away you go.

It's exactly how this started
Hitler+youth+salute+the+Fuhrer.jpg
 
KM said:
Oh sorry I forgot, every terrorist attack is the big bad West's fault for poor policies. Rest of the other things doesn't matter.
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You would have some point if either me or uzz was absolving ISIS of all blame.

RedSky said:
Go complain to the mods. I don't make the rules but I am trying to obey them which is difficult when other mods like yourself make your own rules up.
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Would help if the newbie mods actually follow the rules themselves.
 
Eboue said:
Tell me what discussion you think we should be having. Because several moderators have also discussed religion in this thread.
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The actual event, any confirmed number of dead, casualties, whether the government did enough, whether future event like the France vs England friendly should go ahead, any relevant repercussions from the attacks.

But what shouldn't be allowed, as explicitly stated, is the age old argument of whether Islam itself is to blame for terrorism. It's an interesting discussion, but there's an appropriate thread for it.
 
MJJ said:
Whats funny is you saying that the use of social media to influence masses is exclusive to Islam.

If they do take place, then it cant be exclusive to Islam can it?
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You've misunderstood me. IS have successfully made use of new technology in an effective way. Not every terrorist group operate so effectively in terms of recruitment and communication. Although I guess that makes it exclusive to IS as opposed to Islam as a whole. Social media has allowed them to breed a new kind of terrorism.

Terror attacks on major cities in the Western world, like 9/11, 7/7, Madrid and now Paris has been exclusive to Islam, wouldn't you agree?
 
Tbf it's take the religion talk to the appropriate thread is rubbish in this case. It's a discussion thread related to the attack, so yes religion(rightly or wrongly) is going to be discussed in context of this attack.
 
rcoobc said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...what-do-the-different-names-mean-9750629.html

The worlds western media legitimises ISIS. The muslims are the ones that know they are a bunch of nut jobs, just like every Muslim has said it again and again in this thread. They are literally screaming:

"ITS NOT US. THEY ARE JUST NUT JOBS"
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I get it. I date a muslim girl myself. Im saying that these things are happening under the mask of islam. I doubt they are hanging out at churches or clubs are they? The only way to stop it is to stop it from the inside. Any attack from outside will just lead to more innocent people dying from both hands.
 
There is three separate things that we need to talk about:

- The attacks
- The response
- The ideology and religion.

To be honest we can probably lock this thread and start a new one where we can discuss all three? Or use the one already created.
 
matherto said:
Might as well not leave your house mate. Breaking news, they could be everywhere and you wouldn't know it.
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oh i'll leave but i'll be more careful to pick my spots. if you'd like to go to paris have at it. i've been a few time already. plenty of other places. and switzerland is nice.
 
Joemo said:
The actual event, any confirmed number of dead, casualties, whether the government did enough, whether future event like the France vs England friendly should go ahead, any relevant repercussions from the attacks.

But what shouldn't be allowed, as explicitly stated, is the age old argument of whether Islam itself is to blame for terrorism. It's an interesting discussion, but there's an appropriate thread for it.
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I can read the thread title as well as anyone else but I think it's clear by the number of posters (including moderators) who are discussing Islam's role in this (as well as if there is any role at all) that a thread like the one you described would be full of people editing their own posts to remove relevant thoughts in order to follow a well intentioned but futile rule.
 
MJJ said:
You would have some point if either me or uzz was absolving ISIS of all blame.
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The original discussion started when Uzz put the whole blame on western policies for this attack. Have a look, yourself.
 
Santiago_KinderBueno said:
I get it. I date a muslim girl myself. Im saying that these things are happening under the mask of islam. I doubt they are hanging out at churches or clubs are they? The only way to stop it is to stop it from the inside. Any attack from outside will just lead to more innocent people dying from both hands.
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Agreed, of course you are right.

Every new channel should be interviewing Muslim leaders. The western media is a huge problem here.
 
So, those terrorists yelling Allahu akbar has nothing to do with religion? Off course religion should be discussed in here aswell. It is thread related wether some like it or not....
 
Eboue said:
I'm not complaining nor am I a mod. I'm just engaging in discussion about the matter at hand.
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Yes you are. You've done nothing but moan since I brought it up.

No you're not. What you're discussing is Religion which as the title clearly states should be in a different thread. There's more than enough updates to keep this thread ontopic about the events that occurred last night. Not derailing it into yet another Religious debate.
 
Religion is being manipulated to provide a basis for what they are trying to achieve, just as glorious german history was manipulated by the Nazi's. In both cases they aren't the ultimate blame for what is happening, just being used to provide a shared - infallible - common ground on which to base the rest of the madness.
 
Can the mods maybe just chill out today and leave people discuss whatever else is relevant in context of the Paris shooting, including religion, politics, security, etc. I'm sure we can all manage to follow the discussion alright without being policed every single minute ffs.
 
mu77 said:
oh i'll leave but i'll be more careful to pick my spots. if you'd like to go to paris have at it. i've been a few time already. plenty of other places. and switzerland is nice.
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How do you know they wouldn't attack a place where you'd chosen by being 'more careful'?

They don't really care and you can't predict where it'll be. If you stop going to somewhere because of the fear that they'll attack then they win.

If anything I'd say Paris is the safest spot right now to be honest.
 
RedSky said:
Think it's fairly obvious Eboue.

This:
Breaking News: Shooting in Paris

Not this:
Take the religion talk to the appropriate thread
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Religion is very well linked to this event per many of us, although some think otherwise. Fair enough on that, that is discussion point but there is no point in having this thread just for condolence or event updates. Everybody is sad for what happened and event updates like ISIS statement etc will get posted and discussed as well.
 
RedSky said:
If 100k is correct and you use 1.6 billion as a figure. Then only 0.006% follow ISIS. Which is why it's ridiculous to blame the Religion.
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You cannot use 1.6b as a figure. A lot of people on that 1.6b number are atheists, agnostics or other type of noreligious.

Also, while ISIS have just around 100k, there are many more who may share some part of their beliefs, justify them or just think that jihad is a nice thing. There are many more with the logic of 'they're doing it to us, let us do it to them' despite that they aren't actively fighting. Today I saw that a lot of people were changing their facebook photo to French flag with 'pray for Paris', and then saw some of my Muslim friends changing it to 'Pray for Palestine'. And I am talking for highly educated people, who aren't even thinking of joining ISIS or Al Qaeda.

Again, the number of people who support Jihad (not neccesarily fighting, but even as an ideology) is a minority compared to the number of Muslims. But far grater than 0.006%. And far greater than in Christianity or Buddhism.
 
RedSky said:
Yes you are. You've done nothing but moan since I brought it up.

No you're not. What you're discussing is Religion which as the title clearly states should be in a different thread. There's more than enough updates to keep this thread ontopic about the events that occurred last night. Not derailing it into yet another Religious debate.
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I don't have any interest in the endless scripture quote offs or personal testimonials in the religion thread. I do have an interest in how religion does (or doesn't) have a role in this particular incident. This is the right place to discuss it. I'm going to go ahead and continue doing so, whether you like it or not. If the moderators choose to threadban me for talking about the issue at hand, so be it. Now if you don't mind, you can get back to copy and pasting from the BBC website and I can get back to talking about yesterday's events.
 
Damn, I think some posters in the religion thread mentioned politics! Do they not know there is a separate thread for this??
 
Eboue said:
I don't have any interest in the endless scripture quote offs or personal testimonials in the religion thread. I do have an interest in how religion does (or doesn't) have a role in this particular incident. This is the right place to discuss it. I'm going to go ahead and continue doing so, whether you like it or not. If the moderators choose to threadban me for talking about the issue at hand, so be it. Now if you don't mind, you can get back to copy and pasting from the BBC website and I can get back to talking about yesterday's events.
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I'll just ignore you and be done with it. Problem solved.
 
matherto said:
How do you know they wouldn't attack a place where you'd chosen by being 'more careful'?

They don't really care and you can't predict where it'll be. If you stop going to somewhere because of the fear that they'll attack then they win.

If anything I'd say Paris is the safest spot right now to be honest.
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ok they win. i'm ok with that if not going to paris in april is them winning. and i'm not in paris right now. how about in 3 months or a year. i'l play the percentages and say in another few month paris will be on fire again. by the way when you off to the city of light?
 
KM said:
The original discussion started when Uzz put the whole blame on western policies for this attack. Have a look, yourself.
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I know Uzz's post, he is our version of holyland. I think he tries to counter the negative posts by going too much in the other direction myself, but it doesnt mean you have to do the same.
 
Eyepopper said:
Religion is being manipulated to provide a basis for what they are trying to achieve, just as glorious german history was manipulated by the Nazi's. In both cases they aren't the ultimate blame for what is happening, just being used to provide a shared - infallible - common ground on which to base the rest of the madness.
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But is there an argument to suggest that what they are trying to achieve is in itself a product of of their religious texts?
 
RedSky said:
According to Sky News:

Not a good sign given he was known to the Police.
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This is even more concerning, for me.

Joachim Herrmann, the Bavarian interior minister, said: “Someone transporting several kalashnikovs, hand grenades, and explosives could be from the serious crime sector.

“But there are reasons to suspect that this is about terrorist intentions, or someone supplying weapons to terrorists.”

Examination of the suspect’s mobile phone and of the car’s GPS system indicated he was en route to Paris, German media reports said.

Police experts impounded the vehicle and took it apart - to reveal a sophisticated operation with automatic weapons, 200 grammes of TNT, hand grenades, and ammunition carefully concealed in the car’s bodywork, according to the reports.

Bavarian investigators immediately alerted the French authorities after the man was arrested, the report said.
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Maybe this kind of thing happens more frequently than I imagine, but if someone was en route to Paris with that much weaponry and the French authorities were aware of this then surely they should have been on alert for something like this? Following that you'd think they would have taken the apparent bomb scare on the German national team hotel more seriously, and alerted the wider community I'd have thought.
 
It does feel like the French and European security services fecked up, and not least because 150 people are dead.
 
Brwned said:
This is even more concerning, for me.

Maybe this kind of thing happens more frequently than I imagine, but if someone was en route to Paris with that much weaponry and the French authorities were aware of this then surely they should have been on alert for something like this? Following that you'd think they would have taken the apparent bomb scare on the German national team hotel more seriously, and alerted the wider community I'd have thought.
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Which makes you wonder if the German authorities contacted the French authorities because surely the hotel threat would have been taken far more seriously? But perhaps the bolded is correct.
 
Zarlak said:
It really depends how you look at it.

If you look at them as simply numbers of people then yeah absolutely it is. If you look at it in perspective and you realise that 99.5% of people following the same thing that everybody else is blaming, then you would say it clearly wasn't that which was the issue otherwise there wouldn't be 99.5% of people managing to live their lives perfectly fine. 0.5% of anything is an insignificant number. Though that's not saying that these attacks are insignificant so please don't take it that way. Twisted people will use whatever they can to justify their actions. If the religion was to blame then we'd have millions of Islamic fundamentalists on the streets killing us indiscriminately. What we actually have is 99.5% of people seeming to manage just fine with a statistically insignificant portion of them committing atrocities.

If anything, the fact that it's still a staggering amount at such an insignificant percentage of the overall population simply points to just how much of a staggering figure it is that shows Islam is not the problem. It's not like almost 1 billion people simply don't get it and if they did they'd all be murderers too. The fault lies with the individuals committing these attacks.

If it was 20/80 then sure. If it was 50/50 then absolutely. If it was even 10/90 then yeah. But it's nowhere close.
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But there's a fairly sizable portion of the Muslim population around the world (including the West) that is sympathetic to terrorists acting in the name of Islam. It's obviously a minority in most countries, but there are far more people who are supportive or at least sympathetic than .5%. Thankfully, very few of them are willing to put their feelings into actions.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old-assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf#page=97

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/rel...sympathise-with-Charlie-Hebdo-terrorists.html
 
Kag said:
But is there an argument to suggest that what they are trying to achieve is in itself a product of of their religious texts?
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I don't believe so for one minute. I think the majority of these organisations, Nazi's, IRA, ISIS etc are primarily self serving.

For example ISIS are destroying world heritage sites because their 'religion forbids idolatry' while videotaping and distributing film of themselves doing it (and also raising money by selling artefacts on the black market), therefore preserving them, it's totally in-congruent.

I think what they are doing is far more about assuming power and control than religion. I think their highly questionable interpretation of religion is totally subjective and does nothing more but provide a handy common ground to base self serving aims upon. Before it was about religion it was about freedom from oppression and regime change.

Similar to 'nationalists' in Ireland using 'the struggle' to justify lining their pockets robbing banks. The same guys are now building pipebombs and importing guns for gangsters.
 
MJJ said:
I know Uzz's post, he is our version of holyland. I think he tries to counter the negative posts by going too much in the other direction myself, but it doesnt mean you have to do the same.
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I'm nothing like him.

I've never justified killing in any of my posts.

And my post was on US policy for creating IS as they were formed in American prisons in Iraq.

And lastly, I've said time and time again, this isn't excusing IS for their own actions.
 
Raoul said:
The root causes could be traced back ad infinitum. We're well beyond that point now, where they have to be removed and completely eliminated.
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That's the argument of convenience. After 9/11, that question was never remotely addressed - it was fight, fight, fight. And as history has shown, might is never right - certainly not in the long run.

In any event, I think whenever anything tragic happens, it's important to grieve properly. I am not religious so prayer is just as irrelevant as hashtags and facebook purging. We should honor these losses with some respect & dignity before rhetoric is used to mask a continued agenda of the militarized surveillance state. Time for answers can come later, hopefully after sensible & balanced perspectives are taken rather than kneejerk call to more arms
 
I just realized yesterday was friday the 13th. grim coincidence...

thoughts go out to the victims.
 
So the political "game" of these attacks has started with far right and left groups tweeting some disgusting stuff. Instead of being humble and sending a message of unity they all think about upcoming elections. fecking cnuts.
 
2cents said:
Well the Ottomans ruled the Balkans through divide-and-rule via religion and through the dominance of one particular minority group, all the while harvesting young Christian boys from their families via the devshirme system. Probably naive to think that centuries of rule like this had nothing to do with the problems that region has faced in modern times. The powers didn't oust them from the Balkans, local separatist nationalist movements (admittedly at times supported by the powers) did, the process was completed before WW1.

On the Inquisition I know less, but I have read that the unique zeal of Spanish Catholicism at that time can be at least in part attributed to centuries of frontier warfare waged against pretty fanatical Muslim armies (the Almoravida and Almohads - in contrast, the earlier Umayyads of Spain were reckoned to be a lot more tolerant and sophisticated.)

My broader point, however, is that blaming modern-day Islamic extremism on the action of Western powers a century ago is like blaming the extremism of the Catholic Inquisitors or Crusaders on the actions of various Islamic armies/empires who invaded formerly Christian lands. Sure, it may suffice as part of a broader explanation, but only part. There are much deeper dynamics at play in both cases, e.g. Wahhabism arose as a response to perceived Ottoman decadence in the 18th century in a region that was never colonized by Europeans. Similar case for other movements in West Africa and India around the same time.
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Oh I definitely agree on the role played by the Ottomans in stoking up the ethnic tensions. The use of first born Christian sons in creating an underclass was particularly culpable in creating the situation that came about later. But all that would have been moot if the powers that be created nation states that had some semblance of ethnic identity.

And it seems we both agree on the Inquisition also.

Apologies if I didn't give the correct amount of nuance to the question of the Ottomans and the Balkans, I'm typing on the phone and I tend to have the attention span of a goldfish so I missed out the role of the Ottomans :)
 
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