Olympics boxing controversy - IBA bans lifted on Lin and Khelif by IOC

cafecillos said:
I think they're just very concerned about fairness in women's sport.
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Yep, just like Piers Morgan, Suzanne Moore, Jeff Powell and all the other clickbait right wing columnists, who are suddenly all experts on DSD.
 
ZupZup said:
Tbf, I think most intelligent people understand a difference between saying something like “Paris is the capital of France” which is something that will be either true or not, and is quite provable.

If someone were to say “Khelif has XY chromosomes”. Again, that is something that is either true or not and is something provable.

If you say something about someone’s state of mind… that’s not something that is going to be a fact that you can just prove. What you say may even be partly true, or true to just some extent. In these instances, it should be clear to most people you are offering an opinion. I feel like I am losing brain cells having to point out this difference.
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You said people are posting things as facts and making assumptions when they shouldn't be, then stated something you were assuming in a definitive manner, as if it were a fact.

Regardless of how obvious it should be that what you said was always going to be a matter of opinion, there was an immediate and glaring contradiction between what you criticised others for doing and what you then did.

Edit just to put this to bed: My point is that you can't really call for others to be more careful with how they share their own views, while not taking that care yourself because you've assumed it's "obvious" what you mean.
 
Alex99 said:
You said people are posting things as facts and making assumptions when they shouldn't be, then stated something you were assuming in a definitive manner, as if it were a fact.

Regardless of how obvious it should be that what you said was always going to be a matter of opinion, there was an immediate and glaring contradiction between what you criticised others for doing and what you then did.

Edit just to put this to bed: My point is that you can't really call for others to be more careful with how they share their own views, while not taking that care yourself because you've assumed it's "obvious" what you mean.
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You are really misrepresenting my original post now.

This will be my last reply… but my post referred to “disinformation being presented as fact”. This is what I have an issue with. Disinformation has a very specific meaning. Me giving my opinion about the impact this disinformation has had on the Italian boxer can clearly not fall in this same category.

My reference to assumptions being unhelpful was specifically related to Khelif’s
alleged failed tests. Feel free to read the post again.
 

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/c2j3jg51rg4o​

I want to apologise to Khelif - Italian boxer Carini​


Italian boxer Angela Carini, who abandoned her Olympic bout against Algeria's Imane Khelif inside 46 seconds, says she "wants to apologise" to her opponent.

Khelif is one of two athletes who have been cleared to compete in the women's boxing in Paris, despite having been disqualified from last year's Women's World Championships for failing to meet eligibility criteria.

The 25-year-old's participation in the Games has proved controversial, leading the International Olympic Committee (IOC) to defend her right to compete.

"All this controversy makes me sad," Carini told Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport.

"I'm sorry for my opponent, too. If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision."

Carini said abandoning the fight had been a mature step to take, but she expressed regret at not shaking hands with Khelif afterwards.

"It wasn't something I intended to do," Carini said. "Actually, I want to apologise to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke."
 
again and again the culture war warriors reveal themselves to know very little of what they speak about, and yet their opinions and agendas are endlessly debated and magnified
 
ZupZup said:
You are really misrepresenting my original post now.

This will be my last reply… but my post referred to “disinformation being presented as fact”. This is what I have an issue with. Disinformation has a very specific meaning. Me giving my opinion about the impact this disinformation has had on the Italian boxer can clearly not fall in this same category.

My reference to assumptions being unhelpful was specifically related to Khelif’s
alleged failed tests. Feel free to read the post again.
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I'm not misrepresenting it all. Perhaps you should go back and read it yourself.

The overall debate around this particular Olympic boxer would benefit so much without all the disinformation we’ve seen, spoken by people as if it’s fact. Not talking so much about this thread, but the online debate has been so over the top and tribal.

[...]

so many people making assumptions and jumping to conclusions is far from helpful.
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How is:

That Italian boxer, who I do have sympathy with, was mentally beaten and ready to quit before the first bell even rang. No doubt because of all the pre-fight commentary about her opponent being a biological male etc.
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not making an assumption/jumping to a conclusion and presenting it as fact?

This could very much fall under "disinformation" as someone reading it might well assume the Italian boxer had made some sort of comment about her mental state going into the match not being perfect, which, as far as I'm aware, she hasn't done even with her latest comments.

It's not as egregious as the examples you've since given, but it doesn't mean it can't full under the "disinformation" umbrella.

As I said, just because you assume it's obvious that it's just your opinion, doesn't mean it is, and it stood out because it was between two sentences criticising people for doing exactly what you had done yourself (i.e. present your opinion in a definitive manner as if it was fact).

I appreciate I'm being pedantic, but feck me, at least acknowledge that your wording was a bit off in the context of the criticisms you were making.
 
Alex99 said:
As I said, just because you assume it's obvious that it's just your opinion, doesn't mean it is, and it stood out because it was between two sentences criticising people for doing exactly what you had done yourself (i.e. present your opinion in a definitive manner as if it was fact).

I appreciate I'm being pedantic, but feck me, at least acknowledge that your wording was a bit off in the context of the criticisms you were making.
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I am not acknowledging my wording was off when I don’t agree. I think it was fine.

I think it’s entirely obvious to anyone who has followed the boxing controversy that my comments on the Italian were an opinion… the fact that you’re pretending you didn’t realise that for some pedantic weak “gotcha” is ultimately up to you. I’m not interested in humouring it though.
 
ZupZup said:
I am not acknowledging my wording was off when I don’t agree. I think it was fine.

I think it’s entirely obvious to anyone who has followed the boxing controversy that my comments on the Italian were an opinion… the fact that you’re pretending you didn’t realise that for some pedantic weak “gotcha” is ultimately up to you. I’m not interested in humouring it though.
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You've had a mare, but yes, let's move on.
 


The IOC has repeatedly defended Khelf’s right to compete this week.

“Despite our requests to have certainties and guarantees, both for the safety of our athlete and for the regularity of the competition, they’ve confirmed that (Khelif) is within these parameters,” Italian Olympic Committee president Giovanni Malagò said.

Afterward, a still-tearful Carini said she quit because of the pain from Khelif’s opening punches, adding that her nose bled afterward.

“My face and nose were hurting,” Carini said, according to the Italian sports daily Gazzetta dello Sport. “I couldn’t breathe anymore. I thought about my family, I looked at my brother in the stands and I went to my corner to retire. … I’ve never been hit with such a powerful punch.”

Carini added that it wasn’t a pre-meditated move.

“All this controversy makes me sad,” Carini said. “I’m sorry for my opponent, too. … If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision.” Carini was apologetic for not shaking Khelif’s hand after the bout.

“It wasn’t something I intended to do,” Carini said. “Actually, I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke. I don’t have anything against Khelif. Actually, if I were to meet her again I would embrace her.”
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Sweet Square said:
“Despite our requests to have certainties and guarantees, both for the safety of our athlete and for the regularity of the competition, they’ve confirmed that (Khelif) is within these parameters,” Italian Olympic Committee president Giovanni Malagò said.
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Are they meaning to say despite here or is it a translation issue?
 
The stupidest thing about this is the fact that Imane Khelif is a cis woman. She isn’t even transgender; the IOC has effectively banned trans female athletes in an attempt to appease the transphobes. Nevertheless, that doesn’t stop all these hateful scumbags from spreading bigoted bullshit and calling Khelif a man even though she was assigned female at birth. Everyone responsible for spreading these vicious lies should hang their heads in shame. Absolutely disgusting human beings, all of them.
 
thisisnottaken1 said:
The stupidest thing about this is the fact that Imane Khelif is a cis woman. She isn’t even transgender; the IOC has effectively banned trans female athletes in an attempt to appease the transphobes. Nevertheless, that doesn’t stop all these hateful scumbags from spreading bigoted bullshit and calling Khelif a man even though she was assigned female at birth. Everyone responsible for spreading these vicious lies should hang their heads in shame. Absolutely disgusting human beings, all of them.
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Step forward J. K. Rowling.
 
thisisnottaken1 said:
The stupidest thing about this is the fact that Imane Khelif is a cis woman. She isn’t even transgender; the IOC has effectively banned trans female athletes in an attempt to appease the transphobes. Nevertheless, that doesn’t stop all these hateful scumbags from spreading bigoted bullshit and calling Khelif a man even though she was assigned female at birth. Everyone responsible for spreading these vicious lies should hang their heads in shame. Absolutely disgusting human beings, all of them.
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Doesn't she have XY chromosomes? I thought that's what the previous ban was for.
 
TheGodsInRed said:
Doesn't she have XY chromosomes? I thought that's what the previous ban was for.
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That's what the IBA said but they also refused to share any info for 16 monhts. Also it doesn't mean that she is a male let alone a man due to how DSD affects development.
 
thisisnottaken1 said:
The stupidest thing about this is the fact that Imane Khelif is a cis woman. She isn’t even transgender; the IOC has effectively banned trans female athletes in an attempt to appease the transphobes. Nevertheless, that doesn’t stop all these hateful scumbags from spreading bigoted bullshit and calling Khelif a man even though she was assigned female at birth. Everyone responsible for spreading these vicious lies should hang their heads in shame. Absolutely disgusting human beings, all of them.
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Spot fecking on - the argument shouldn't really even be in this thread, she is not transgender.

SilentWitness said:
Step forward J. K. Rowling.
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She should be jailed for inciting hatred with this tweet
 
Nice interview by Carini. Very mature response now she’s had an opportunity to recover.

Whilst there may be valid questions to ask of the IOC, some of the comments about Khelif, calling her a cheat etc, have been outrageous. It seems clear that she’s grown up as a girl and apparently meets the IOC’s criteria. There’s no suggestion that she’s tried to mislead or done anything but comply with the rules. The tweets from Rowling yesterday referring to her as a man and a cheat were particularly objectionable. Regardless of how this all plays out, she is deserving only of support.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It’s not even a smirk. That’s a concerned expression! Anyhoo. Nice words from Carini today. Good on her.
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Agreed, it was nice to see a bit of kindness amongst all the vitriol.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
How do they know, the IBA hasn't published what tests they did?
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Probably why they also said they have not followed due process. Read the statement maybe?

And to your question how does anyone know? Since the have published nothing, and had zero guildines according the the minutes on their website?
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
How do they know, the IBA hasn't published what tests they did?
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I think this alone is enough to doubt the guidlines were followed.

These followed the New Delhi IBA event from which the controversies stem.

During that event, IBA president, Russia’s Umar Kremlev posted on his Telegram channel that DNA tests had "proved" both Imane Khelif and Taiwan’s Lin Yu-Ting "had XY chromosomes and were thus excluded from the sports events".

His Telegram comments were then reported by Russian news agency TASS.
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https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2...der-controversy-miring-womens-olympic-boxing/
 
Cassidy said:
Probably why they also said they have not followed due process. Read the statement maybe?

And to your question how does anyone know? Since the have published nothing, and had zero guildines according the the minutes on their website?
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I've read the statement, that's the issue. What you're implying in my opinion doesn't track, hence my post.

It's nice Carini apologised, seen her statement has been spread far and wide which is positive.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
I've read the statement, that's the issue. What you're implying in my opinion doesn't track, hence my post.

It's nice Carini apologised, seen her statement has been spread far and wide which is positive.
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They didnt have a procedure and recognised they needed to establish one and agree standards for testing after the ban. Yet they tested (and have not share how they did) the athletes mid tournament and ban them.

Given we know XY test is inconclusive for the reasons already shared in this thread and the same for testosterone tests. I think its quite obvious

Also remember the post you responded to said there is no evidence the fighter was born a man and that is still a fact

IBA is not in a position to arbitrarily decide what constitutes as sufficient scientific evidence which is why the standards need to be established.
 
Imane Khelif’s next opponent has been posting some pretty terrible stuff on her Instagram today… she has to risk being expelled from the competition you’d think. The IOC would definitely be well within their rights to take some action against her.
 
ZupZup said:
Imane Khelif’s next opponent has been posting some pretty terrible stuff on her Instagram today… she has to risk being expelled from the competition you’d think. The IOC would definitely be well within their rights to take some action against her.
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Like what?
 

Even Judy Murray tweeting about it plus retweeting tweets from Rowling, shame as I didn't think she was like that. Navratilova also getting involved to the surprise of absolutely no one unfortunately. Plus Chris Evert tweeted this as well....


Rublev also posted incoherent ramblings on his socials but deleted them as far as I can see. Thing is considering her career record she hardly has an advantage over other competitors even if she does have additional testosterone levels. But most of the elite athletes will have at least some genetic components that make them better than the rest. Supposedly Michael Phelps and Bolt both had unique physical traits that made them pretty much perfect for the sports they were competing in allowing them to become the best their sport had seen.
 
CraftySoAndSo said:

Even Judy Murray tweeting about it plus retweeting tweets from Rowling, shame as I didn't think she was like that. Navratilova also getting involved to the surprise of absolutely no one unfortunately. Plus Chris Evert tweeted this as well....


Rublev also posted incoherent ramblings on his socials but deleted them as far as I can see. Thing is considering her career record she hardly has an advantage over other competitors even if she does have additional testosterone levels. But most of the elite athletes will have at least some genetic components that make them better than the rest. Supposedly Michael Phelps and Bolt both had unique physical traits that made them pretty much perfect for the sports they were competing in allowing them to become the best their sport had seen.
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It’s absolutely disgusting. They don’t know what a woman is despite sealioning people with the “what is a woman” question. They’re just disgusting racist bigots who have decided that a cisgender woman is a man.
 
It's too late now, but the best solution to the Khelif dilemma would have been not to have any boxing in this olympics. Boxing and equestrian events are past their sell-by date in the modern world. Modern pentathlon is leading the way here.
 
CraftySoAndSo said:

Even Judy Murray tweeting about it plus retweeting tweets from Rowling, shame as I didn't think she was like that. Navratilova also getting involved to the surprise of absolutely no one unfortunately. Plus Chris Evert tweeted this as well....


Rublev also posted incoherent ramblings on his socials but deleted them as far as I can see. Thing is considering her career record she hardly has an advantage over other competitors even if she does have additional testosterone levels. But most of the elite athletes will have at least some genetic components that make them better than the rest. Supposedly Michael Phelps and Bolt both had unique physical traits that made them pretty much perfect for the sports they were competing in allowing them to become the best their sport had seen.
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She should probably have a chat with her son about issues like this.
 
SilentWitness said:
Like what?
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She has been reposting comments about it being sick that a man is being allowed to fight women. Comments calling her opponent disgusting with puke emoji’s and a sick monster. Posts calling her a “transformer”. She’s posted an image of a female boxer stood across from a beast wearing boxing gloves. That’s only scratching the surface… she’s been on a reposting spree to her Instagram stories.
 
ZupZup said:
Imane Khelif’s next opponent has been posting some pretty terrible stuff on her Instagram today… she has to risk being expelled from the competition you’d think. The IOC would definitely be well within their rights to take some action against her.
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Checks nationality. Hungarian. Checks out.
 
Solius said:
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As discussed earlier in the thread, while it appears the IBA is indeed, dodgy as hell, the "it's because she beat a Russian boxer" motive doesn't really track.

They also disqualified a Taiwanese boxer, who didn't fight any Russians on her way to bronze, and Russian boxers lost in other weight classes, including a final, I believe.

If anything, that makes it all even weirder, as it justs adds another level of murkiness to the whole thing.
 
CraftySoAndSo said:

Even Judy Murray tweeting about it plus retweeting tweets from Rowling, shame as I didn't think she was like that. Navratilova also getting involved to the surprise of absolutely no one unfortunately. Plus Chris Evert tweeted this as well....


Rublev also posted incoherent ramblings on his socials but deleted them as far as I can see. Thing is considering her career record she hardly has an advantage over other competitors even if she does have additional testosterone levels. But most of the elite athletes will have at least some genetic components that make them better than the rest. Supposedly Michael Phelps and Bolt both had unique physical traits that made them pretty much perfect for the sports they were competing in allowing them to become the best their sport had seen.
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They're the same people who were demonising gay people in the 60s, 70s etc. The target has changed but the hatred is the same.
 
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