Olympics boxing controversy - IBA bans lifted on Lin and Khelif by IOC
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You're having a mare here mate. You call Carini a she and Khelif a they. If you can't see how fecked up that is, then so be it.
Saw this on Reddit;
It appears to now be the narrative that is being manufactured in real time - that Khelif was somehow simply being “punished” for beating a Russian boxer in the 2023 championships.
Note how the Associated Press frames this. They make it seem as though Khelif was disqualified after beating Amineva.
In reality, the AP had to go back TWO MATCHES to find where Khelif had fought a Russian. After besting Amineva, Khelif went on to beat Uzbekistan’s Navbakhor Khamidova, and then Thailand’s Janjaem Suwannapheng. Khelif was disqualified just before facing off against China’s Yang Liu.
No Russian advanced to the finals of this match. The Russian boxer didn’t even came close to it. Disqualifying Khelif wouldn’t have advanced the Russian boxer to a favourable position.
Further, multiple other boxers very easily beat Russian opponents and advanced to win gold without any such problems. Such as Morocco’s Khadija El-Mardi in the heavyweight, who directly beat Russia’s Diana Pyatak for a spot in the gold match that she would ultimately win.
Other Russian boxers were left in the dust in other categories where they didn’t even end up placing at all. Yet no other boxers were “punished” for directly beating these Russian competitors.
It also doesn’t mesh for Lin Yu-Ting, who never matched against a single Russian boxer.
The narrative being made here is very strange.
It appears to now be the narrative that is being manufactured in real time - that Khelif was somehow simply being “punished” for beating a Russian boxer in the 2023 championships.
Note how the Associated Press frames this. They make it seem as though Khelif was disqualified after beating Amineva.
In reality, the AP had to go back TWO MATCHES to find where Khelif had fought a Russian. After besting Amineva, Khelif went on to beat Uzbekistan’s Navbakhor Khamidova, and then Thailand’s Janjaem Suwannapheng. Khelif was disqualified just before facing off against China’s Yang Liu.
No Russian advanced to the finals of this match. The Russian boxer didn’t even came close to it. Disqualifying Khelif wouldn’t have advanced the Russian boxer to a favourable position.
Further, multiple other boxers very easily beat Russian opponents and advanced to win gold without any such problems. Such as Morocco’s Khadija El-Mardi in the heavyweight, who directly beat Russia’s Diana Pyatak for a spot in the gold match that she would ultimately win.
Other Russian boxers were left in the dust in other categories where they didn’t even end up placing at all. Yet no other boxers were “punished” for directly beating these Russian competitors.
It also doesn’t mesh for Lin Yu-Ting, who never matched against a single Russian boxer.
The narrative being made here is very strange.
You're right, I'll do better, I'll err in the side of caution and call both they.
It is.
It probably answers it as best it can be. Biologically male (xy) and female (xx) is a clear way of delineating (with only a few genetic mutation exceptions) and takes gender out of it. Within those groupings genetically men and women will develop differently but so what? I'm never going to beat Usain Bolt but that is what elite sport is about. Unless you do away with female sport (a very bad idea imo) there isn't much else that you can do and you are never going to make everyone happy of dealt within a way that they feel is fair. With the best of intentions you simply have to do what is best for the vast majority.
I'm possibly completely wrong here, but would an individual in the situation @JPRouve is describing not be extremely unlikely to have the physical characteristics required to become an athlete anyway?
It's not like testosterone is typically completely absent in female biology.
It also seems like an extreme edge case that would affect only a very, very small number of women anyway.
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No, it doesn't and the issue we were talking about isn't about gender, it's about sex and development. What you are suggesting is the literal equivalent of basing it on penis vs vagina until we understood that it was more complicated than that. In the case of DSD, you have XY people who due to their condition have complete sex reversal, yes their chromosomes are XY but they develop as female, and it's congenital so puberty can be put to the side.
Since we know most of the relevant informations in the case of people with DSD, the only reasonable way to answer these questions is by determining how each individuals biology work, to determine their actual sex based on all our current knowledge. Otherwise we ostracize people from sport, not because we have to but because we don't want to use our medical knowledge.
Edit: Also the current estimation is that it concerns 1 out of 5000 babies. So it's not something that we can or should put aside, in reality there is likely a lot female athletes with the condition and we had no idea.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5825923/#:~:text=Introduction,births (2, 3).
https://www.hudson.org.au/news/new-findings-impact-disorders-of-sex-development/
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That's just one type of DSD though. If we can reasonably identify the one you're referencing, then I'm sure there won't be much objection to them competing.
There is at least one DSD that cause someone with XY chromosomes to have genital ambiguity (for lack of a better term) at birth, but that will still see them go through a male puberty. I believe this was the case with Caster Semenya, and it is essentially what is being suggested about the two boxers the IBA disqualified (although no evidence to support this has been made public at this point).
As Wibble said, XY/XX distinction will cover the vast majority of cases very easily.
Of course, but the cases where we are talking about a male are the one that people have in mind, so there is no point having a conversation about it and a male that has the biology of a male, should compete with males. Now it's still something that should be studied beyond chromosomes and genitals, but the answer is very simple in that case when we have all the facts.
And what I'm saying is that it doesn't answer the question because it doesn't, we have the tools to answer it and there is no reason not to.
I enjoy how one poster just keeps re-posting blatantly biased content under the guise of acting in good faith, misgenders people, and continues posting rampant speculation on an athletes health conditions completely unchecked. Makes for great chat.
All we know for certain is that she was born a woman, has lived as a woman, has been beaten by women, is accredited by the IOC as able to fight in their competition and is not accredited by the discredited IBA to fight in their competition. Everything else is speculation.
Oh and she has inflamed transphobes because it is speculated that she does not meet their perfect, 'normal' definition of what a woman should be. Because they must keep their perpetual outrage machine turning.
All we know for certain is that she was born a woman, has lived as a woman, has been beaten by women, is accredited by the IOC as able to fight in their competition and is not accredited by the discredited IBA to fight in their competition. Everything else is speculation.
Oh and she has inflamed transphobes because it is speculated that she does not meet their perfect, 'normal' definition of what a woman should be. Because they must keep their perpetual outrage machine turning.
The type of posts her next opponent is sharing.
Never cared in the slightest about Olympic boxing but now suddenly have an urge to see Hamori get thoroughly beaten. Funny that.
I'm not really sure what you're arguing for.
It seems obvious that the clearest and simplest distinction you can make in the vast majority of cases is between individuals with XX and XY chromosomes.
Where there are DSD edge cases, you can assess them on a case-by-case basis.
I'm not an expert, I don't know the answers to what is obviously an incredibly complex issue (and may not actually be an issue at all in Khelif's case), but it seems to me like you're further complicating it by trying to remove a fairly simple distinguishing factor from consideration.
I only addressed that point. The post that have been quoted specifically mentioned that.
So we've chromosome tested as step one then?
Apologies if I've misinterpreted, but it came across to me like you were saying chromosome testing was pointless.
I'm also not sure I've seen anyone disagree with the idea that someone with a DSD condition that sees them born with XY chromosomes that causes androgen sensitivity, and thus sees them develop essentially as biologically female (presumably without female reproductive organs?), is fine to compete in women's sports.
The point of contention is the advantages of male puberty, and as I pointed out, there is at least one DSD that will see someone with XY chromosomes assigned female at birth, but that will later see them go through a male puberty. I believe this is why Caster Semenya has been the focus of controversy, and reading between the lines, this is what the IBA has suggested is the case with the two boxers they disqualified (without providing any evidence and seemingly.
Seems like we've been at crossed purposes, in all honesty.
Could be they also disqualified the Taiwanese boxer to make it looked fair?
What do you mean?
No, the point is that you can't stop at chromosomes tests and the rest of your post is an illustration of why. How do you determine whether someone has the advantages of male puberty when you only tested chromosomes? IIRC there are six groups of DSD, depending on where they land you will have a more accurate answer to the question.
This is why I think we've been at crossed purposes.
I've certainly not meant to suggest we should stop there, and I'm reasonably confident others would agree.
She was disqualified mid tournament before her final match after beating Russia boxer, they knew she had DSD and found the excuse to disqualify her. Turned out the Taiwanese also had the same problem so they disqualified both.
*They disqualified mid tournament was very dodgy. Or probably the test result came very late?
That's the IBA explanation.
The problem is that it appears they followed no due process, have been incredibly secretive about what they actually tested (and why they tested in the first place), and are essentially an incredibly dodgy organisation for a variety of reasons.
The same boxers competed in previous IBA competition without issue.
The dodgy part is that they have not shared the results of the test or the procedure with any of their partners. The IBA isn't even trying to clear their name with evidences.
That to me is stranger because the athletes in question seem to be different since they allegedly both have treatments related to high testosterone but the IBA still refuse to share the results of their tests after 16 months.
The IBA aspect is a mystery really. They say they don't want to release more details for reasons of a confidentiality because it's personal to the athletes.
What shouldn't be "personal" is them releasing a copy of the procedures they follow and the set of rules they apply. Did they write a new rule, for example one saying XX women only, or did some old rule get reinterpreted. Which lab conducted the tests? Was another lab used to validate the results?
Chances are they were making the rules up as they went along. Given the apparent lack of credibility of the organisation did they make up anything else?
There was always a risk of an incident like this when the IOC dropped its regulations in favour of an instruction to individual sports to do it themselves. It's not a good look for boxing or the Olympics boxing committee.
Personally I think without culture war pedlars deiberately muddying the water so this sounds like we're talking about transwomen, the whole angry mob thing wouldn't have happened. It's really sad to see it playing out like this.
What shouldn't be "personal" is them releasing a copy of the procedures they follow and the set of rules they apply. Did they write a new rule, for example one saying XX women only, or did some old rule get reinterpreted. Which lab conducted the tests? Was another lab used to validate the results?
Chances are they were making the rules up as they went along. Given the apparent lack of credibility of the organisation did they make up anything else?
There was always a risk of an incident like this when the IOC dropped its regulations in favour of an instruction to individual sports to do it themselves. It's not a good look for boxing or the Olympics boxing committee.
Personally I think without culture war pedlars deiberately muddying the water so this sounds like we're talking about transwomen, the whole angry mob thing wouldn't have happened. It's really sad to see it playing out like this.
I don't think that's correct, I've seen reports after beating the Russian, there was a fight against an Uzbek fighter and a Thai fighter, then was in the final when the test results came in.
You've also seen reports she was a man and believed them so maybe you shouldn't believe everything you read.
I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even tested them. It would explain why after 16 months no results or procedure has been shared in spite of IOC and CAS requesting them.
Feel bad for the Algerian athlete. Unfortunate combination of it being the Olympics, the fight ending early in a stoppage, the reaction of her opponent and the media feasting on it with vultures like Musk and Rowling feeding on the carcass. Wonder how different the reaction would be if she lost a close decision.
The larger point about trans athletes and whether they should be able to compete in women's sports is for me up to the governing body and the women athletes in each sport. The people who run the sport and the athletes should decide..They are the ones most invested.
The larger point about trans athletes and whether they should be able to compete in women's sports is for me up to the governing body and the women athletes in each sport. The people who run the sport and the athletes should decide..They are the ones most invested.
Very true. Please make sure you heed your own advice.
Missed this.
How does anyone know this, given everything that's been shared?
Unless I'm wrong (perhaps likely)
- The IOC categorise anyone with "female" on their passport is female but don't do genetic testing and won't test further.
- The IBA, while discredited, confirmed they did a DNA test and their accusation is that Khelif, and another boxer has XY chromosomes.
So for you to bowl in and then state with such certainty that you know that Khelif was born a woman, while deriding other posters for peddling speculation is just ridiculous.
Ten pages later and you still haven't figured out chromosomes have nothing to do with gender. We know she was born a woman because we have pictures of her as a little girl and because nobody close to her has ever claimed she has ever identified as anything else than a woman.
But your crusade for othering her won't stop you from keeping "speculating", "researching" and "asking questions" while never taking a step back to assess the actual facts or considering how your words and actions are impacting other fellow human beings. We've seen you complaining about people unfairly being labeled "TERFs" but god forbid you show a little bit of empathy for the woman targeted and abused all across the globe right now.
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The only thing that has been shared is that she has always been a woman(gender) and that at birth her sex was deemed to be female. The IBA hasn't shared a thing with anyone, they made a claim and refused to actually share the results or the procedure.
Unlike you i've looked at the facts being presented rather than things being said by people with a vested interest in Imane being a man instead of a woman.
The crazy thing about it she's not even trans, but I guess bigots have never been the sharpest tools in the shed.
It's particularly distasteful to repeatedly misgender her despite being corrected multiple times. Just show how tough things are for trans people these days.
People - midwives, doctors, whoever have been looking at babies and deciding whether they're boys or girls for a long time. They've been logging that on bits of paper like birth certificates and baptism records for a long time. She was born a girl and she's now a woman.
The IOC do indeed say they are using what her passport says.
The IBA haven't confirmed anything - they say they conducted a recognised gender test and she failed. One of their (claimed to be corrupt) leaders claimed that they did a genetic test. The actual tests haven't been revealed, nor have their results, nor has the test methodology, or the test lab, or the rule she's alleged to have failed.
Even if she does have XY chromosones, which does sound plausible from the gossip, then she's still a woman. That's how a century of women's sport and many more generations of people in daily life would have described her. As far as we know, that's how she describes herself.
It may be that at the end of the debates about fairness in women's sports they do come up with a blanket declaration. Maybe they will decide the need for simplicity of implementation over individual assessment and the divide will be that it becomes XX Women's Sport. That isn't how women's sport has been though.
You conflate sex and gender inside one sentence.
Chromosomes are to do with SEX, not gender.
You then say nobody claimed she identified as anything else - This isn't A TRANS ISSUE.
Again, embarrassing
You're an absolute joke.
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Sure, where you getting your facts?
Sorry, bolded statement is tautological.
Correct, it's not a trans case and being "born" female doesn't discount the athlete having a DSD. Which is the entire question.
So this statement is absolutely empty and explains nothing.