Olympics boxing controversy - IBA bans lifted on Lin and Khelif by IOC

Revan said:
Men in average are just 10-12cm taller than women in average, so around 7% difference on mean. Of course that a lot of women are taller than a lot of men, in pretty much every setting, so not sure what is your argument.

In NBA/WNBA to be fair, the difference is 6 inches, which is higher than in the average population (again, this makes sense, if you shift the mean, the outliers will shift more).
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And we accept that fact because it's visible, on average men are significantly taller than women, 10 to 12 cm is significant. Now how many women are actually out of the norm when it comes to their biology, what if it is the same proportion than with height? We accept that a lot of women secretes abnormal amounts of growth hormones, why the same couldn't be true for other hormones?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, there's a huge difference. The bell shaped curves are very far apart. So it looks as though what they say there is arguably factually correct but definitely disingenuous. Which is a pretty dumb thing to do, knowing the sort of forensic analysis their statement would get.
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The IOC have dealt with this terribly. You'd have thought lessons would have been learned after Caster Semenya spent basically a decade in court for essentially this issue, but here we are.
 
Alex99 said:
Is that not still a disingenuous comparison within the context of the Olympics though?

From what I've read, the top end for women is still way lower than the bottom end of the typical range for men.

I'm not sure of the exact numbers involved, but it was something like the top end for women being a good four or five times lower than the bottom end for men.

Even if elite female athletes push out of that typical range, surely it's not by such a large amount?
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It shouldn't be a large amount unless DSD isn't as rare as we think. And if it's not as rare then the top of women sports is where you will find a lot of these cases.
 
JPRouve said:
Exactly. Which makes all the WNBA players that are 6'6" or above not only huge outliers but they are also taller than a very large portion of NBA player which is absolutely abnormal.
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I totally agree, I would say that looking at a cohort of people who are naturally taller/selected based on height (amongst other factors) weakens the point but I get what you're saying.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
Well both fighters under scrutiny were both banned last year during the Worlds for failing gender tests, one before the gold medal match and one past winning gold, so there is that. Issue I agree is the IBA are in disreput currently so perhaps there is a nefarious conspiracy where they did this to get back at the IOC, but then that starts to get a bit fantastical.
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Or like IOC pointed out they did not conduct the testing required under scientific guidelines to determine them as born male.
Until such evidence has been provided they cannot go around saying they were born male. Does not have to be a nefarious conspiracy, we have seen over the past few days how hysteria around this subject lends to people not checking scientific facts correctly
 
The overall debate around this particular Olympic boxer would benefit so much without all the disinformation we’ve seen, spoken by people as if it’s fact. Not talking so much about this thread, but the online debate has been so over the top and tribal.

That Italian boxer, who I do have sympathy with, was mentally beaten and ready to quit before the first bell even rang. No doubt because of all the pre-fight commentary about her opponent being a biological male etc.

As far as I can tell, there’s still a lot we don’t know about exactly why Khelif allegedly failed previous tests, and so many people making assumptions and jumping to conclusions is far from helpful.
 
ZupZup said:
The overall debate around this particular Olympic boxer would benefit so much without all the disinformation we’ve seen, spoken by people as if it’s fact. Not talking so much about this thread, but the online debate has been so over the top and tribal.

That Italian boxer, who I do have sympathy with, was mentally beaten and ready to quit before the first bell even rang. No doubt because of all the pre-fight commentary about her opponent being a biological male etc.

As far as I can tell, there’s still a lot we don’t know about exactly why Khelif allegedly failed previous tests, and so many people making assumptions and jumping to conclusions is far from helpful.
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I don't disagree with your overall point, but is the bold not itself, making an assumption and jumping to conclusions?
 
Alex99 said:
I don't disagree with your overall point, but is the bold not itself, making an assumption and jumping to conclusions?
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It seems extremely likely, no? When you consider the Algerian's record until now and the fact she's never had an opponent quit on their stool before, including contests at which she failed whatever tests she is alleged to have failed. Plus Carini apparently has previous for giving up, mid-fight. It just seems absurd that Khelif has developed outrageous, terrifying power in her punches that wasn't there in her previous fights. She caught the Italian with a couple of good shots and her emotions - in the context of all the pre-fight hysteria - got the better of her. I think we can safely assume that this is what happened.
 
I'm looking forward for the next few years of women's boxing. After this surely local gyms and large arenas alike across the globe will be filled with enthusiastic crowds cheering for all the women boxers. Politicians will spend vast amounts on training facilities and coaching for women boxers. It's going to be so amazing now that everyone cares so much about this sport.
 
Alex99 said:
I don't disagree with your overall point, but is the bold not itself, making an assumption and jumping to conclusions?
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Fair... but do you have any other likely explanations for why she would quit in that situation? As a thought experiment... imagine we had zero coverage of any sort questioning Khelif's gender. Khelif was widely accepted by all as being a female and this was just another Olympic boxing match. Do you honestly think the Italian woman quits and calls the fight off like she did? I don't think it would have played out like that at all.
 
JPRouve said:
It shouldn't be a large amount unless DSD isn't as rare as we think. And if it's not as rare then the top of women sports is where you will find a lot of these cases.
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It's certainly true that DSD athletes are over-represented in population terms at the elite level - there have been studies on that. Some events have much higher concentrations of DSD athletes than others - all the medalists at the 800m in Rio were for example.

In athletes with high testosterone we know that insisting that they take drugs to reduce it leads to a big deterioration in performance. It's probably bad for their health as well.

They're very much a group caught in the crossfire. Through most of the history of the Olympics they'd have competed as women even if they had to go through a rather demeaning sex test (external genetalia) to do it. The tests we're talking about (whether testosterone or chromosome based) are a relatively modern phenomenon.

Drug-testing and the attempt to find a "solution" to permit more open trans-athlete inclusion has ended up sticking targets on intersex/DSD athletes.
 
Dan_F said:
The IBA is run by a Russian and banned Khelif after defeating a Russian fighter in the Worlds. It stinks.
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On the flip side of that, the Taiwanese boxer that was also banned and stripped of a bronze medal had beaten a Romanian, a Spaniard, and a Bulgarian.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It seems extremely likely, no? When you consider the Algerian's record until now and the fact she's never had an opponent quit on their stool before, including contests at which she failed whatever tests she is alleged to have failed. Plus Carini apparently has previous for giving up, mid-fight. It just seems absurd that Khelif has developed outrageous, terrifying power in her punches that wasn't there in her previous fights. She caught the Italian with a couple of good shots and her emotions - in the context of all the pre-fight hysteria - got the better of her. I think we can safely assume that this is what happened.
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Yup, this is the most likely explanation.

It seems insane to purposely hold back for so long past puberty only to unleash all fury at the age of 25.

Although if Khelif wins the gold medal then all hell will break lose. She loses no matter the outcome.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It seems extremely likely, no? When you consider the Algerian's record until now and the fact she's never had an opponent quit on their stool before, including contests at which she failed whatever tests she is alleged to have failed. Plus Carini apparently has previous for giving up, mid-fight. It just seems absurd that Khelif has developed outrageous, terrifying power in her punches that wasn't there in her previous fights. She caught the Italian with a couple of good shots and her emotions - in the context of all the pre-fight hysteria - got the better of her. I think we can safely assume that this is what happened.
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ZupZup said:
Fair... but do you have any other likely explanations for why she would quit in that situation? As a thought experiment... imagine we had zero coverage of any sort questioning Khelif's gender. Khelif was widely accepted by all as being a female and this was just another Olympic boxing match. Do you honestly think the Italian woman quits and calls the fight off like she did? I don't think it would have played out like that at all.
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I agree it's a fairly likely explanation, I just thought it was an odd thing to include in such a definitive manner in a post deriding people for speaking about things as facts, when we can't know that they are.
 
By the way, a point that might be getting missed in all this chat about testosterone levels is that if someone with XY chromosomes is born with female genitalia then that's most likely because they're testosterone resistant. Their body doesn't respond to testosterone in the same way that other people do. That's why they don't develop as a male in utero. So any advantage they might get from walking around with elevated testosterone levels wouldn't be anything like the advantage that a trans woman would have. Which would explain why Khelif's record is fairly unremarkable (IF she really does have DSD) and means that her genetics/hormones might not give her much of an unfair advantage at all.
 
Alex99 said:
I don't disagree with your overall point, but is the bold not itself, making an assumption and jumping to conclusions?
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I think there’s pretty much pages of every doing just that here, myself included. The facts are we have no idea if she has inflated testosterone or XY chromosomes right? Anything else is purely assumptions and jumping to conclusions.
 
Dan_F said:
I think there’s pretty much pages of every doing just that here, myself included. The facts are we have no idea if she has inflated testosterone or XY chromosomes right? Anything else is purely assumptions and jumping to conclusions.
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Right, but most of the other posts aren't doing so while simultaneously going "too many people making assumptions and not sticking to the facts, anyway, here's my assumption about what the Italian boxer was thinking."
 
Carolina Red said:
On the flip side of that, the Taiwanese boxer that was also banned and stripped of a bronze medal had beaten a Romanian, a Spaniard, and a Bulgarian.
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All I’d say is that anyone who knows boxing is seriously casting doubt on the IBA as an organisation. There’s video’s on Twitter of their president taking about gender issues and quite frankly the language and understanding of the issue is shocking for someone in that kind of role.
 
Alex99 said:
I agree it's a fairly likely explanation, I just thought it was an odd thing to include in such a definitive manner in a post deriding people for speaking about things as facts, when we can't know that they are.
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I would say there is a world of difference between my assumption which was based on some facts, and a bit of logic... to the countless statements saying "Khelif is a man" etc. when in reality, what evidence do we have to make such claims with any confidence? That a fairly corrupt and untrustworthy organisation claims Khelif failed an unspecified test that made them previously ineligible to compete at a specific tournament. An individual who has previously competed many times, even under that same organisation that is calling foul.
 
Alex99 said:
Right, but most of the other posts aren't doing so while simultaneously going "too many people making assumptions and not sticking to the facts, anyway, here's my assumption about what the Italian boxer was thinking."
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Yeah fair enough, it’s hard to keep track. I think as long as it’s presented an opinion that’s fine. People do seem to be talking in certainties about test results etc, when it’s actually really murky.
 
jojojo said:
It's certainly true that DSD athletes are over-represented in population terms at the elite level - there have been studies on that. Some events have much higher concentrations of DSD athletes than others - all the medalists at the 800m in Rio were for example.

In athletes with high testosterone we know that insisting that they take drugs to reduce it leads to a big deterioration in performance. It's probably bad for their health as well.

They're very much a group caught in the crossfire. Through most of the history of the Olympics they'd have competed as women even if they had to go through a rather demeaning sex test (external genetalia) to do it. The tests we're talking about (whether testosterone or chromosome based) are a relatively modern phenomenon.

Drug-testing and the attempt to find a "solution" to permit more open trans-athlete inclusion has ended up sticking targets on intersex/DSD athletes.
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Intuitively it makes sense and then out of these people some will be very close to an average male while others will be very close to an average female. But in both cases they are like female athletes taking PEDs. Now you know more about it than I do but I am under the impression that we shouldn't mix them with transwoman because their condition put still put them far from elite males and people are too happy to ignore it, for example moving them to male boxing would be daft?
 
Cassidy said:
Or like IOC pointed out they did not conduct the testing required under scientific guidelines to determine them as born male.
Until such evidence has been provided they cannot go around saying they were born male. Does not have to be a nefarious conspiracy, we have seen over the past few days how hysteria around this subject lends to people not checking scientific facts correctly
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The IOC pointed out the IBA didn't do a scientific test?
 
JPRouve said:
Intuitively it makes sense and then out of these people some will be very close to an average male while others will be very close to an average female. But in both cases they are like female athletes taking PEDs. Now you know more about it than I do but I am under the impression that we shouldn't mix them with transwoman because their condition put still put them far from elite males and people are too happy to ignore it, for example moving them to male boxing would be daft?
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See my point above re testosterone resistance. Which is an important difference between DSD and trans athletes.
 
maniak said:
Even in this the sun had to put a picture of her in a swimming suit. Such a sleazy organization.
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SLeazy and hammering home the message that her next opponent is feminine looking.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
See my point above re testosterone resistance. Which is an important difference between DSD and trans athletes.
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I know that part, I also seem to remember that depending on how early the disorder appear there are consequences on how organs and the skeleton develops?
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It seems extremely likely, no? When you consider the Algerian's record until now and the fact she's never had an opponent quit on their stool before, including contests at which she failed whatever tests she is alleged to have failed. Plus Carini apparently has previous for giving up, mid-fight. It just seems absurd that Khelif has developed outrageous, terrifying power in her punches that wasn't there in her previous fights. She caught the Italian with a couple of good shots and her emotions - in the context of all the pre-fight hysteria - got the better of her. I think we can safely assume that this is what happened.
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Do remember Carini has won 84 fights out of 107 and this "giving up" was due to an ankle injury, so she has "previous" is a bit harsh
 
ZupZup said:
I would say there is a world of difference between my assumption which was based on some facts, and a bit of logic... to the countless statements saying "Khelif is a man" etc. when in reality, what evidence do we have to make such claims with any confidence? That a fairly corrupt and untrustworthy organisation claims Khelif failed an unspecified test that made them previously ineligible to compete at a specific tournament. An individual who has previously competed many times, even under that same organisation that is calling foul.
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Again, I don't really disagree. I just found some degree of irony in you starting the post by calling out people for making assumptions, only to immediately follow that up with your own assumption about the Italian boxer's state of mind.
 
Dan_F said:
All I’d say is that anyone who knows boxing is seriously casting doubt on the IBA as an organisation. There’s video’s on Twitter of their president taking about gender issues and quite frankly the language and understanding of the issue is shocking for someone in that kind of role.
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Oh I completely understand the doubts cast onto the IBA. It is wholly justified.

I’m just pointing out that about the Taiwanese boxer because it’s another in a long line of things related to this case that make you say “this doesn’t make sense”

As I said previously, the governing bodies have made a mess of this
 
Alex99 said:
Again, I don't really disagree. I just found some degree of irony in you starting the post by calling out people for making assumptions, only to immediately follow that up with your own assumption about the Italian boxer's state of mind.
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If it makes you feel better… just imagine I started that sentence “In my opinion”… just to make it EXTRA obvious that when I was talking about someone else’s state of mind, I was offering an opinion and not stating it as fact.
 
HookedOnAPhelan said:
The cheekbones stick out too much, and the hair is messed up. Also the length of the arms is out of proportion to the rest of the body.

I'd give a 6.5 at best: I'd hit it, but only if I was drunk.
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I haven't seen anyone respond but I have to say this is an absolutely disgusting post and you should be ashamed of yourself.
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
I think the contention is that they were born male with a DSD which still makes them "male".
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Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
IOC quote of "the athlete is female as they are female in their passport" is so odd.
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Why do you keep misgendering her in all your posts? Why "they"?

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For once the IOC statement was genuinely on point. Good for them to finally speak up about this.
 
ZupZup said:
If it makes you feel better… just imagine I started that sentence “In my opinion”… just to make it EXTRA obvious that when I was talking about someone else’s state of mind, I was offering an opinion and not stating it as fact.
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To be fair, you did say things were "spoken by people as if it’s fact" immediately before a definitive statement of your own, which itself included "No doubt because...".
 
Jippy said:
SLeazy and hammering home the message that her next opponent is feminine looking.
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No doubt.

Seeing all the terfs coming out trying to define what a woman should look like is depressingly funny.
 
Alex99 said:
To be fair, you did say things were "spoken by people as if it’s fact" immediately before a definitive statement of your own, which itself included "No doubt because...".
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Tbf, I think most intelligent people understand a difference between saying something like “Paris is the capital of France” which is something that will be either true or not, and is quite provable.

If someone were to say “Khelif has XY chromosomes”. Again, that is something that is either true or not and is something provable.

If you say something about someone’s state of mind… that’s not something that is going to be a fact that you can just prove. What you say may even be partly true, or true to just some extent. In these instances, it should be clear to most people you are offering an opinion. I feel like I am losing brain cells having to point out this difference.
 
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