Incredible. It's amazing to me that someone can think, let alone post, some of those above arguments without realizing how self-damning they are.
Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
- Status
Incredible. It's amazing to me that someone can think, let alone post, some of those above arguments without realizing how self-damning they are.
The Chelsea that are below us on the table and fluked their way to a CL final without facing any real competition? We had tougher games in the group stage than they did all competition.
Well the floor is yours. Self damning?
Okay. So we are a better team than Chelsea then?
Not in terms of squad we've had less investment, but in terms of overall team yeah.
As an aside: I'm excited for next season I reckon we have a proper Big 4 with Liverpool, Chelsea, United and City all being very competitive.
I agree but how can we not have a better squad but a better overall team? Do you not also think we have a better squad? I do.
No we have the better management team.
There's the Self damning bit. You agree we're a better team than Chelsea and its a fact that Chelsea have had more investment in the squad. Yet you refuse to allow for the possibility that we have the better management and coaching.
Will the ultimate barometer in a country for a team being better than another team is the league table. Currently we are ahead of them.
They have an excellent chance of winning the biggest trophy in club football so far play to them, but they are in no way a superior team to us.
Media seen to be losing their mind about them beating city couple times, we beat city not too long ago more convincely than Chelsea, but debate still seems to be lingering around us like we don't belong where we are.
Yes. We are.
You are confusing yourself. I asked you who had the better team you said us. But you aren’t comparing players you are comparing managers? Is that what you are saying? So basically if we had Tuchel and they had Ole with the same current resources. They would not only be in a FA Cup and Champs league final they would probably also be lifting the league. As obviously he would be outperforming Tuchel’s management team.
Make it make sense for me please. You went off topic. But we was doing so well.
I know we are. So I don’t want to hear no complaints about Chelsea having a better team than us if they win a double. As I know how this works.
We belong where we are because we have arguable the second best squad in the league. I say arguable as Chelsea’s name rings a lot in these debates. But you have shown what side of the fence you sit on. The same as mine.
"You are confusing yourself. I asked you who had the better team you said us. But you aren’t comparing players you are comparing managers? Is that what you are saying?"
The team includes the whole team as its playing right now including the coaching and management. For example, Chelsea are a better team now under Tuchel than they were under Lampard even though it's the same set of players. It's not that confusing.
"So basically if we had Tuchel and they had Ole with the same current resources. They would not only be in a FA Cup and Champs league final they would probably also be lifting the league. As obviously he would be outperforming Tuchel’s management team."
Not all managers work for all clubs. Maybe Ole would have taken Chelsea to 11 wins on the bounce like he did when he came here, maybe not. Maybe Tuchel would have had us challenging for the league, maybe we'd be stuck watching the 0-0 borefests Tuchel's Chelsea were producing when he first arrived there. It's not an exact science. Not all managers work for all teams. Look Tuchel's a good coach, but just because he's managed more games in the CL than Ole at this point in his career doesn't make him a magic solution that you install into any club he'd start winning all the time.
Last edited:
The king has spoken.
No, we are performing over the season on the pitch as a better side. But on paper Chelsea have the stronger squad in depth.
Self-damning, as in "makes it apparent that the person who wrote this doesn't understand what a viable argument is".
There are few things as time-consuming, galling and futile as trying to explain exactly what makes a stupid argument stupid. But if you insist:
We are here but there is absolutely nothing that says if we didn’t just hire Conte we would be lifting a Premier League title like Inter now following his methods on how he seena rebuild.
You're not only comparing reality with a hypothetical possibility that an alternative reality might have been even better, and taking this as indicative of shortcomings, you are also making an unwarranted extrapolation by assuming that since Conte won Serie A with one team, he would also have won the PL with a different team. No doubt you will say that you're not claiming he would, just that he might have. But that just brings you back to your first problem, which is that you're comparing a hypothetical achievement to a real one, with no proof of relevance, and drawing from that entirely unjustified implications. The only thing this shows is that you don't understand how an argument works.
After all he took enough of our players.
Okay, so there are a handful of players who used to play for Man Utd, and who is now part of a team that won Serie A. Which shows what, exactly? Well, it shows that these players are good enough to play for a championship team in Serie A. You think it shows that Antonio Conte is a better manager, which of course it doesn't.
All in all he’s done a good job for his standard. My standards are just different and I see a lot of things in his management that a believe a better manager wouldn’t have made
Let me rephrase that argument for you in a way that makes exactly the same argument with exactly the same degree of validity:
"He's a shit manager because I think he is, and I think he is because he is".
That's not actually an argument, or even a meaningful statement, at all.
You can bring up LVG and Mourinho if you want. But history shows how they manage clubs and there time under us is no big blimp in how they‘ve managed over the years. LVG was just a lot older and outdated and Jose well if you could do a line graph on performance you’ll probably just notice he’s getting progressively worse
This amounts to a jumbled claim that somehow, comparing OGS' results to those of his predecessors isn't relevant (while comparing it to what Antonio Conte has achieved with a different team in a different league somehow is). The reason being that LvG was "old and outdated", and Jose was just plain going downhill, so there. That's called "ignoring evidence which inconveniently fails to support your conclusion". Not a lot of people will read that and think "oh, that's a fair point".
Seriously, you're like that West Ham fan who insisted Moyes was shit and any manager would have brought West Ham to the brink of CL qualification. Because you know, the team is demonstrably doing well, and since Moyes is shit, it can't be because of him. And if it's nothing to do with him, anyone could have done it.
And please, don't make me say the John Cleese thing.
Chelsea and city have better squads than us hands down. If we build on what we have with 4 new 1st teamers and 2 squad players then we would be level with them methinks.
It's great for Ole to receive plaudits for his accomplishments this season, but Christ if it turns into another bout of excuses for next season about how we don't have the very best first 11 and squad in the league and can't possibly win without 6 new players...
That's not an excuse. It's a fact.
1st part maybe, but the 2nd definitely isn't given the amount of teams not called City which have won the league recently.
In any case, since we all rate Ole so highly, why not back him to get the 90+ points to win the league? No need for all these excuses next season.
We definitely need to sign players though. 6 is an exaggeration. Overall if this summer goes well we would have spent over 400m since Ole's been here. That's enough to build a squad that can challenge for the league barring an injury crisis.
Oh yeah, not the "6 new players" part, obviously. But then, that's not really an argument that has been used.
Squad still needs some strengthening, in my view. But hopefully it'll get that during the summer.
What a boss Ole is. Look at that line up.
Loving things at our club right now
Loving things at our club right now
That team was just returned to the shite form as Jose's team. Not a too shocking form. Of cause you need to give him team to build his team. Then you can see now, a much better team is exhibiting and still improving.
Do you really think Perreira and Lingard can play in the top club as a start XI attacking midfield? That period having Pogba all time, Martial & Rashford half time.
Anyone in our bench can come out to change the match significantly as the bench like ManCity ( Bernardo Silva etc) / Chelsea (Giroud etc)?
Same question. Do you really think Perreira and Lingard can play in the top club as a start XI attacking midfield? That period having Pogba all time, Martial & Rashford half time.
Turkey away game was/is/will always hard to play. We played 8 away games in Turkey since 93' and 3 win 2 draws 3 defect.
| 03.11.1993 | 1993/94 | CL | Second Round | Galatasaray - Manchester United | 0:0 (0:0) |
| 28.09.1994 | 1994/95 | CL | Group stage | Galatasaray - Manchester United | 0:0 (0:0) |
| 16.10.1996 | 1996/97 | CL | Group stage | Fenerbahce - Manchester United | 0:2 (0:0) |
| 08.12.2004 | 2004/05 | CL | Group stage | Fenerbahce - Manchester United | 3:0 (0:0) |
| 15.09.2009 | 2009/10 | CL | Group stage | Besiktas - Manchester United | 0:1 (0:0) |
| 02.11.2010 | 2010/11 | CL | Group stage | Bursaspor - Manchester United | 0:3 (0:0) |
| 20.11.2012 | 2012/13 | CL | Group stage | Galatasaray - Manchester United | 1:0 (0:0) |
| 03.11.2016 | 2016/17 | EL | Group stage | Fenerbahce - Manchester United | 2:1 (1:0) |
Of cause it is caused by no preseason, players are not a machine, it needs time to train up and pick up some factor like tacit understanding, stamina, fitness etc
After that we have only defects in 30 league matches.
And again, do you really think that Perreira and Lingard etc should be in our team as Start XI and it still competes against other top team? Or do you think that we had some top quantity players in that team when Pogba injured.
Not to get drawn into the discussion, but I've never seen a rebutle put so perfectly! Fair play lad, lot of solid points.
He ain’t playing. Juan Mata still lives
Ole was asked if Amad or Shoretire will make an appearance and he said there was a great chance just depends whether it’s from the bench or starting.
Today is the day my friend! I can feel it in my jellys.
He also said he has a chance and is training well! It’s happening!
Boom!!
More players always helps, however we can definitely challenge right now. Neither City nor Chelsea have strikers/goalscorers as good as ours.
The way I see it, if we get a backup player and a first team player, we'll have at least the best first 11 in the league. But even if we don't it's a toss-up between us and City, especially given that Chelsea wasn't that highly rated pre-Tuchel. The league table shows this.
So like I said, a big signing this season basically means the expectation would be to win it, especially if we finish 2nd this season.
Congrats on the tenner.
If we see don't at least 10 passing triangles from VDB, Mata and Amad, this game will be a travesty
It’s true you don’t know which goes to my point about could anyone have done a better job than Ole. Probably. But I wouldn’t know would I. It’s an easy argument to use to get out of any question that might require a lot of thought. I just don’t think there is a clear right or wrong like both sides of the fence would give for or against. So I don’t see why I should be judged as some kind of fool for thinking otherwise.
If that makes sense.
Correct team to play and we did play well particular first half. Could have got a point. Right subs as well I think at the right time.
I guess the only negative thing is our defending on set pieces. It has long been a problem for us although not so much recently.
I guess the only negative thing is our defending on set pieces. It has long been a problem for us although not so much recently.
That's why people say all the time you don't make subs when you're defending a set piece
The minute that goal goes in the decision of bringing Rashford and Cavani on to win the game becomes one I immediately wished he could undo. I've got no problem doing it at 1-1 and trying to win it but 1-2 down it effectively becomes a salvage a draw job which wasn't worth the effort (literally)
The minute that goal goes in the decision of bringing Rashford and Cavani on to win the game becomes one I immediately wished he could undo. I've got no problem doing it at 1-1 and trying to win it but 1-2 down it effectively becomes a salvage a draw job which wasn't worth the effort (literally)
I think today was basically assessment day for a few players. Wouldn’t be surprised to see a couple names added to the outgoing list.
What does Ole has to do to prove what exactly? That he is a top shelf manager? Simple really. Win the biggest trophies there are to win and play great football. Other than that I told you that he's earned his third season by doing many great things except the above.
As for Pep, maybe Ole lost fewer games but Pep won more. And that's what wins you the League.
Also by being in the richest club in world football means you can spend as much as you like in CB, RW and whatever. I can't criticize Pep for this, we are Man United one of the richest clubs around not Morecambe. Our managers spent insanely over the past years, Ole included.
Sorry bur I don't get why we have to wait for a long time to lift the PL just because Pep spends a lot.
Tuchel in his first 3 months leads Chelsea to Champions League final by beating Atletico and Real Madrid (I'm aware that this isn't the Real of past years but neither were Barcelona when we played against them) and probably knocks off West Ham and get in to top4. We on the other hand with Ole as an interim and later permanent bottled every chance we got to get to top4. If I remember correctly it was between us, Arsenal and Spurs (too lazy to Google it). And imploded for the last 10 or so games.
No, I don't want Hazenhutl here, but I do admit I admire his adventurous Soton. They always play attacking football but there is not enough quality to that team, so the results vary
It´s a bit lazy to blame the subs for that. Matic started the game, didn´t he, and I´d rather have Cavani defending the box than Elanga.
Man don't try to justify the shitty way we got off the ch.league group. Basakcehir were just shit, we managed to be awfully shit
As for the rest you can look 2 pages back for my posts about these things. It was just to counter another list. All in all he's done ok. Not terrible, not great
No I'm sorry I won't let you off with "he's done ok". Considering the absolute shitshow he inherited and where we are now, finally looking like we're on the right track, with players who are motivated and all pulling in the right direction, with a younger hungrier squad, I would say he's done a bloomin marvelous job.
I don't think Ole will judge anyone harshly on today.
Squad players are meant to play with your first teamers, not in a team of their own.
I'm not being pedantic, just pointing out that it seems to be one rule for Ole and another for other clubs managers. You mentioned Pep being the best manager of his generation, coupled with him manager the wealthiest club around who operate outside of any form of FFP, that makes it a very hard task for any current United manager to win the league. We came very close this year imo.What does Ole has to do to prove what exactly? That he is a top shelf manager? Simple really. Win the biggest trophies there are to win and play great football. Other than that I told you that he's earned his third season by doing many great things except the above.
As for Pep, maybe Ole lost fewer games but Pep won more. And that's what wins you the League.
Also by being in the richest club in world football means you can spend as much as you like in CB, RW and whatever. I can't criticize Pep for this, we are Man United one of the richest clubs around not Morecambe. Our managers spent insanely over the past years, Ole included.
Sorry bur I don't get why we have to wait for a long time to lift the PL just because Pep spends a lot.
Tuchel in his first 3 months leads Chelsea to Champions League final by beating Atletico and Real Madrid (I'm aware that this isn't the Real of past years but neither were Barcelona when we played against them) and probably knocks off West Ham and get in to top4. We on the other hand with Ole as an interim and later permanent bottled every chance we got to get to top4. If I remember correctly it was between us, Arsenal and Spurs (too lazy to Google it). And imploded for the last 10 or so games.
No, I don't want Hazenhutl here, but I do admit I admire his adventurous Soton. They always play attacking football but there is not enough quality to that team, so the results vary
I'm trying to get to the crux of the issue, to determine the benchmark because I think there are huge contradictions across what our fans seemingly ignore as progress under Ole and pick out as major positives in opposition managers.
Tuchel has done well in his three months however if Ole's first three months coincided with him finding himself positioned well in multiple competitions like Tuchel has then it would look just as favourable in all likelihood as we went unbeaten for god knows how long, beating some big teams along the way. The team Ole took over also needed a TOTAL rebuilding job, one of the biggest of any team in the PL in recent memory, plenty of overpaid shite players (thanks Mourinho) to get rid off and a lot of players we had to recruit and get it right first time in order to see any of the on field improvements we've seen. The latter being something Tuchel has not had to do in his first three months.
Am I totally overwhelmed that Tuchel has beaten the two Madrid teams? No, not particularly. Both are pretty ordinary by their own standards (at this time) and Chelsea have some very good players, I'm more impressed with his win over City, but that's something Ole has done multiple times ironically.
- Status