Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[Withnail]

If he were a tactical manager surely this part would read



You're just being pedantic here and somehow acting like this is some sort of insult towards Ole. But keeping parotting the same, tired, reductive argument that he beat Pep.

We better get Alladyce on the phone when he leaves seeing as he got a couple of wins over Fergie.

I'm only being pedantic because you jumped in with an impossible to prove interpretation of a comment about management. I haven't parrotted anything and haven't mentioned Pep since my first post.

I was genuinely interested in what could me considered 'very limited' and you've completely failed to enlighten me.

As far what he should have said goes, that all depends on what the question was, which you also left out.

Good one on Allardyce... What a zinger that was.

 

[Mainoldo]

where?

Front 3. Rashford Cavani Greenwood.

Who they got? I said wingers so I’m looking at the left and the right. Tell me who you would swap for Rashford and Greenwood?

Unless you was one of those who thought Werner was the new Lewindoski

 

[Eriku]

Ole Gunnar Solskjaer will be content with how a virtual Carabao Cup team fared in the first half. I thought United's passing was pretty good in the first half although I will admit this is the first time I've watched United play for a while. United's manager will be less impressed with the 2nd half.

As for all the changes, he's perfectly entitled to do what's in United's best interests. The minute your hopes of a league title, top 4 or avoiding relegation are in the hands of some other club, you have yourself and nobody else to blame. Solskjaer and co have nothing to apologise for.

Really? I think it’s up there with our most wasteful passing performances this whole season, sooo many wayward simple passes.

 

[b82REZ]

I'm only being pedantic because you jumped in with an impossible to prove interpretation of a comment about management. I haven't parrotted anything and haven't mentioned Pep since my first post.

I was genuinely interested in what could me considered 'very limited' and you've completely failed to enlighten me.

As far what he should have said goes, that all depends on what the question was, which you also left out.

Good one on Allardyce... What a zinger that was.

I didn't say he was very limited.

Allardyce line was almost as good as your trademark Ole beat Pep gag.

 

[Karlos PFC]

I’m not, what I’m pointing out is that YOU claim Pep to be the best manager of his generation and we all know he’s managing a team with bottomless pockets and zero FFP.

There’s no argument about that. SO what I’m pointing out is that you might be waiting a long time and rubbishing plenty of managers like you have with Ole until one wins the league ahead of the best manager on the planet with the richest club on the planet.

I never said we didn’t have money in comparison. I’m pointing out your own opinion.

So you're saying that either we get the best players around by paying or we won't be winning the league. But by this point of view if you only need money to win the league then Big Sam or Moyes could do it.

I don't get why Pep has to be held accountable for spending, he is in the most wealthy club around. If they didn't spend, their fans would be protesting against the owners. What's the point of them buying a club then. Surely they don't even care about the dividends. So as a coach if you have the option to spend, you spend. Why not? Pep has admitted many times "I'm lucky that we as a team can spend and get the right players in".

Every coach post SAF spent insanely but they weren't the right fit, didn't perform, broke down relationships with the manager and so.

The whole thing is how you, as a coach, utilize and evolve a player. I think a year or two ago I watched Iniesta, Robben, Xavi and Sterling talk about Pep and how he changed the way they think and perform football. Sterling even said that Pep changed the way he was receiving the ball, by not being with his back to the goal but by being with his back in the sideline cause that would give him more options to pass the ball (sorry if I don't describe it well, hope you get what I'm trying to say). And we clearly can see the difference between pre-Pep and post-Pep Sterling.

They bought Dias and everybody is drooling how great a defender he is, I'm not going to disagree. He is a solid CB but I can't say that he is the reason behind Citys form or reaching the ch.league final. I think that they have great defensive organization overall.

 

[RUCK4444]

So you're saying that either we get the best players around by paying or we won't be winning the league. But by this point of view if you only need money to win the league then Big Sam or Moyes could do it.

I don't get why Pep has to be held accountable for spending, he is in the most wealthy club around. If they didn't spend, their fans would be protesting against the owners. What's the point of them buying a club then. Surely they don't even care about the dividends. So as a coach if you have the option to spend, you spend. Why not? Pep has admitted many times "I'm lucky that we as a team can spend and get the right players in".

Every coach post SAF spent insanely but they weren't the right fit, didn't perform, broke down relationships with the manager and so.

The whole thing is how you, as a coach, utilize and evolve a player. I think a year or two ago I watched Iniesta, Robben, Xavi and Sterling talk about Pep and how he changed the way they think and perform football. Sterling even said that Pep changed the way he was receiving the ball, by not being with his back to the goal but by being with his back in the sideline cause that would give him more options to pass the ball (sorry if I don't describe it well, hope you get what I'm trying to say). And we clearly can see the difference between pre-Pep and post-Pep Sterling.

They bought Dias and everybody is drooling how great a defender he is, I'm not going to disagree. He is a solid CB but I can't say that he is the reason behind Citys form or reaching the ch.league final. I think that they have great defensive organization overall.

Your totally distorting a pretty basic observation to undo a point that you brought up yourself.

Where did I say it’s all down to Money? I never.

Again, for fear of repeating myself... the best manager on planet Earth coupled with the deepest pockets on earth is a formidable opponent (and that’s not allowing for what would be the second best manager on earth in Klopp as another opponent.)
By your logic nothing but finishing ahead of that manager and team is deemed good enough from our manager... My response was that we came mighty close this season as well as matching them in many areas like wins, away record, goals scored, head to head. Basically everything we could have done except not draw silly games and win the league.

By your own logic we’ve come as close as we can to finding a manager that meets your benchmark. Which I agree with.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

So you're saying that either we get the best players around by paying or we won't be winning the league. But by this point of view if you only need money to win the league then Big Sam or Moyes could do it.

I don't get why Pep has to be held accountable for spending, he is in the most wealthy club around. If they didn't spend, their fans would be protesting against the owners. What's the point of them buying a club then. Surely they don't even care about the dividends. So as a coach if you have the option to spend, you spend. Why not? Pep has admitted many times "I'm lucky that we as a team can spend and get the right players in".

Every coach post SAF spent insanely but they weren't the right fit, didn't perform, broke down relationships with the manager and so.

The whole thing is how you, as a coach, utilize and evolve a player. I think a year or two ago I watched Iniesta, Robben, Xavi and Sterling talk about Pep and how he changed the way they think and perform football. Sterling even said that Pep changed the way he was receiving the ball, by not being with his back to the goal but by being with his back in the sideline cause that would give him more options to pass the ball (sorry if I don't describe it well, hope you get what I'm trying to say). And we clearly can see the difference between pre-Pep and post-Pep Sterling.

They bought Dias and everybody is drooling how great a defender he is, I'm not going to disagree. He is a solid CB but I can't say that he is the reason behind Citys form or reaching the ch.league final. I think that they have great defensive organization overall.

Pep has always inherited and been able to get the players he wants. It would have been interesting if we had somehow fooled him into coming here with Ed's smooth talking. Would they have loosened the purse strings or would he have had a nasty shock.

 

[b82REZ]

Pep has always inherited and been able to get the players he wants. It would have been interesting if we had somehow fooled him into coming here with Ed's smooth talking. Would they have loosened the purse strings or would he have had a nasty shock.

I don't think he would have been backed as much as at City, but all our managers have been backed, significantly. It just comes up short when comparing to City.

I think it was Savage who said it last night, Pep improved players everywhere he goes. Yes he spends obscene amounts as well but there is an ever-growing list of players who have developed under him or have really kicked on under his tutelage.

 

[Withnail]

I didn't say he was very limited.

Allardyce line was almost as good as your trademark Ole beat Pep gag.

This is hilarious.

You took me to task for questioning Schmeichelscartwheel when he said Ole was 'very limited tactically'

If you weren't backing him up and don't think he was correct when why have you bothered arguing with me over it?

 

[b82REZ]

This is hilarious.

You took me to task for questioning Schmeichelscartwheel when he said Ole was 'very limited tactically'

If you weren't backing him up and don't think he was correct when why have you bothered arguing with me over it?

It's the ridiculous statement of, "Ole beat Pep" I have issue with.

It's such a reductive, dismissive way to debate. Especially when the crux of what he was saying has been backed up by the manager.

You've then double downed on your frankly absurd statement and refused to acknowledge even in light of quotes from Ole himself that he sees himself more of a man manager.

 

[justsomebloke]

It's the ridiculous statement of, "Ole beat Pep" I have issue with.

It's such a reductive, dismissive way to debate. Especially when the crux of what he was saying has been backed up by the manager.

You've then double downed on your frankly absurd statement and refused to acknowledge even in light of quotes from Ole himself that he sees himself more of a man manager.

Of course it hasn't been "backed up by the manager". Ole didn't say "I'm great at man management, but I suck at tactics". Yet some people here treat that statement as if that was what he'd said.

 

[Olecurls99]

Sure I'll give you that we have more motivated and more balanced squad compared to before, but let's not kid ourselves whoever came after Mourinho would do a better job and there would be the new manager bounce (literally every team has, even West Brom with Big Sam did).

You're talking about the shitshow he inherited, the same shitshow that came 2nd 6 months earlier. I'm not suggesting that we had a great squad or anything like that, more like having some great players that didn't perform for x,y,z reason.



Again you are suggesting that United can't compete financially with City, I find this excuse ridiculous to be honest.

Teams rebuild and develop all the time, it's a continuous process. No team will say "ok next year I'm bringing 22 new players because we need to rebuild the squad and we will sacrifice a year for this to happen". The only team as far as I know that did this was Olympiacos by bringing 20 new players in a single summer. But we can't be compared to a Greek club with last 16 of Ch.League as their ceiling.

Tuchel didn't need to do such a thing (rebuild) cause Lampard did it for him.

If tomorrow Ole got the sack and a better coach came we'd be in a better position than post-Mou. The new coach would get a better and more balanced squad and who knows maybe we'd get in a ch.league final. It's all hypothetical.

The thing is what @NZT-One wrote, that we acknowledge the good job Ole has done but hypothetically if we got another coach he wouldn't be doing a great or a better job than Ole

This is more than a bounce at this stage my man. Sometimes new managers come in and do even worse. I don't know why you think we were bound to improve under any manager. A lot of people were talking about us getting relegated or falling into obscurity under him. Now that he's shown how good he is they're questioning the fact that we haven't won the treble yet.
He inherited a shitshow. A load of old players that should never have been signed, Fellaini, Lukaku, Sanchez etc. He's spent 2 years building a team, whilst also getting us top 4, 2 years in a row and offloading the dross. I would have deemed it acceptable if he got rid of the crap and took a couple of years to get the show on the road and get us back in the Champions league, but he's done both. It's an incredible job.

 

[b82REZ]

Of course it hasn't been "backed up by the manager". Ole didn't say "I'm great at man management, but I suck at tactics". Yet some people here treat that statement as if that was what he'd said.

No but the implication was clear. He prioritises man management and delegates the tactical aspect to coaches and assistants.

This is why I've repeatedly say nuanced discussion has died on this site. It shouldn't need spelling out what Ole meant in that interview.

You're leaning to the other side of these quotes by willingly choosing to interpret something because of what he didn't say.

 

[Withnail]

It's the ridiculous statement of, "Ole beat Pep" I have issue with.

It's such a reductive, dismissive way to debate. Especially when the crux of what he was saying has been backed up by the manager.

You've then double downed on your frankly absurd statement and refused to acknowledge even in light of quotes from Ole himself that he sees himself more of a man manager.

So you take what I said out of context of what I was responding to and completely ignore that my issue was with the statement they Ole is 'very limited tactically'?

Now you're trying to claim I don't agree that Ole sees himself as more of a man manager because I disagreed that it was a quote where Ole admitted he was tactically limited?

Seriously? My argument was with the phrase 'very limited tactically'. It seems like you read my reply and jumped in with two feet without actually reading the post I was responding to and totally missed the point.

 

[b82REZ]

So you take what I said out of context of what I was responding to and completely ignore that my issue was with the statement they Ole is 'very limited tactically'?

Now you're trying to claim I don't agree that Ole sees himself as more of a man manager because I disagreed that it was a quote where Ole admitted he was tactically limited?

Seriously? My argument was with the phrase 'very limited tactically'. It seems like you read my reply and jumped in with two feet without actually reading the post I was responding to and totally missed the point.

I didn't miss the point. I told you why I called out your reply, because it used the clichéd response of Ole beating Pep.

Of course I'm going to claim you disagree, seeing as that all you've done during this exchange. Or is that all being done to make you appear objective? So you're now saying you agree that Ole is more of a man manager, then why disagree with me in the first place? You willingly chose to ignore the implication of that interview and went with the "well he didn't explicitly say..."

 

[Withnail]

I didn't miss the point. I told you why I called out your reply, because it used the clichéd response of Ole beating Pep.

Of course I'm going to claim you disagree, seeing as that all you've done during this exchange. Or is that all being done to make you appear objective? So you're now saying you agree that Ole is more of a man manager, then why disagree with me in the first place? You willingly chose to ignore the implication of that interview and went with the "well he didn't explicitly say..."

We're at cross purposes here.

The topic of what I wanted to discuss was what I've already explained. If you argue with me in the same vein but about a different point altogether then it's going to get confusing isn't it?

You're taking about Ole not being an elite tactician or focussing more on man management.

My reply was to what I would consider to be a bit of an OTT claim so I responded slightly tongue in cheek with the Pep comment. He's obviously more of a man manager but he's clearly not very tactically limited.

Your initially response suggested you didn't think the comment I replied to was a slight on the manager so my assumption was that you agreed with that assertion but you also seemed to think I was claiming Ole was a tactical genius so yes I think you did miss the point of what I was getting at.

I think we can both agree this was a collosal waste of time.

 

[Grylte]

Front 3. Rashford Cavani Greenwood.

Who they got? I said wingers so I’m looking at the left and the right. Tell me who you would swap for Rashford and Greenwood?

Unless you was one of those who thought Werner was the new Lewindoski

I was just poking you for using "there" when it should be "their".

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Well let’s do player for player shall we. All you have done it pick an area where they are stronger than us which is the wings. Even then there first 11 options aren’t better than ours so you are relying on mediocre vs very mediocre.

I didn’t pick anything as I made it clear already in my last post that we are stronger in our XI/main players, they are stronger in the squad depth. Our squad depth have let us down many times this season which what cost us the UCL, FA Cup & league title. On the other hand, Chelsea’s squad depth have helped them to last in the competition as long as they can. Thus, there is zero common sense to say that Tuchel will do the same or better with our squad that lacks squad depth quality, agree?

5 of our players are better, 7 of their players are better, the rest are the same.

Bruno > Mount
Rashford > Werner
Greenwood = Havertz
Pogba > Kante
McT, Fred, Matic < Kovacic, Jorginho, Gilmour
Cavani & Martial > Giroud & Abraham
James, Mata, VDB < Pulisic, Ziyech, CHO
Brandon < Azpi
Shaw, Telles, Bissaka = Chilwell, Alonso, James
Maguire & Lindelof = Silva & Zouma
Bailly & Tuanzebe < Christensen & Rudiger

 

[united_99]

Tactics and coaching aren’t the same. They are obviously dependent on each other, but still two different things. You come up with a tactic and you then coach it / implement it. You can be a great coach but if the tactical plan is wrong then what’s the point.
So Ole not being involved as much in coaching as some other managers doesn’t mean at all that he is “very limited tactically”. From his interviews alone you can see he knows a lot about the way his opponents play and set up.
And he manages the coaches as well btw, so I assume he comes up with the tactics, discusses them with his coaches and players before they practice it.

 

[Mainoldo]

I was just poking you for using "there" when it should be "their".

Ohhh. Whosh!! Straight over my head. I did have to read what I said a few times to figure out what you was picking out from what I said.

I still missed spelling error doing that too.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Because he's had minimal support from the club, with an average of two first team signings per season. Unlike Chelsea and City who have pretty much perfectly balanced squads, we have large gaping holes in ours. If you go through our team, player by player you can make the argument of almost half of the first team needing a clear upgrade. Other than the complete one off Leicester side of 2016, no team not managed by SAF wins titles under those circumstances. Just as Liverpool were transformed after VVD, Alisson and Fabinho came in, so too would Utd if a DM, RW and CB came in. It will likely not happen next summer but even if it was just two of them, we'd be so much more improved.

We already got our expensive CB signing, so I'm not sure if we'll spend big on another one. And Ole hasn't shown interest in buying DM's thus far, he seemingly prefers his two 6's to be multifaceted. The only position on that list that seems viable is the RW, and even then Ole has said Greenwood will play there and he's been impressing, so that may not happen either.

I do agree we'd be much improved with new better players, of course you could say that for anyone. But regardless of what happens in the summer, we must try to at least get the 90+ points to win the title, and see what happens. We don't need to fear Chelsea or City, their squads aren't as balanced as we think. They both lack quality strikers (City basically won the league without any), and Chelsea lacks star power in general besides maybe Kante.

Remember, the whole point of a young group of players improving together (that we've been talking about since Ole came in) is that they may not even need external influence to improve year on year. With our group that contains a lot of prime-aged and young 'n' hungry, quality players, as well as a very good manager by all accounts, there's no reason not to expect a points total equating to a league win/serious challenge next season.

 

[Mainoldo]

I didn’t pick anything as I made it clear already in my last post that we are stronger in our XI/main players, they are stronger in the squad depth. Our squad depth have let us down many times this season which what cost us the UCL, FA Cup & league title. On the other hand, Chelsea’s squad depth have helped them to last in the competition as long as they can. Thus, there is zero common sense to say that Tuchel will do the same or better with our squad that lacks squad depth quality, agree?

5 of our players are better, 7 of their players are better, the rest are the same.

Bruno > Mount
Rashford > Werner
Greenwood = Havertz
Pogba > Kante
McT, Fred, Matic < Kovacic, Jorginho, Gilmour
Cavani & Martial > Giroud & Abraham
James, Mata, VDB < Pulisic, Ziyech, CHO
Brandon < Azpi
Shaw, Telles, Bissaka = Chilwell, Alonso, James
Maguire & Lindelof = Silva & Zouma
Bailly & Tuanzebe < Christensen & Rudiger

But even look at your opinion on players below. It’s not even clear there that they have better squad depth.

We didn’t get knocked out of competitions because of squad depth we got knocked out due to poor rotation. Chelsea don’t have player or correct me if I’m wrong with the most playing appearances for a season. Also just to point out the players that Tuchel uses are the same ones Lampard decided to cast out. Like an Alonso so squad depth again is subjective to management. You may only see a player as poor because our manager says he is by not playing him.

For example. What makes you believe. Zouma and Christensen is better than Axel? Who’s to say Tuchel manages us and Maguire and Axel are his first choice partnership or he uses a back 3 with Lindelof too?

All hypotheticals. The main point is there is literally a toss of a coin difference to who gets the better hand picking United’s current squad and Chelsea’s. Both still require improvements but there is enough there to get second in a league and also do very very very well in all cup competitions.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

But even look at your opinion on players below. It’s not even clear there that they have better squad depth.

Please elaborate? Because it’s so clear there when you look at the blue colour majority indicates the squad depth.

We didn’t get knocked out of competitions because of squad depth we got knocked out due to poor rotation. Chelsea don’t have player or correct me if I’m wrong with the most playing appearances for a season. Also just to point out the players that Tuchel uses are the same ones Lampard decided to cast out. Like an Alonso so squad depth again is subjective to management. You may only see a player as poor because our manager says he is by not playing him.

For example. What makes you believe. Zouma and Christensen is better than Axel? Who’s to say Tuchel manages us and Maguire and Axel are his first choice partnership or he uses a back 3 with Lindelof too?

If there is quality in the squad depth, the rotation wouldn’t be poor. For instance, we played our strongest squad vs Milan and weaker side vs Leicester in FA Cup, what happened? Got knocked out. We dropped our main players vs Istanbul away, we lost 2-1 but beat them 4-1 when we played our main one. All those 0-0 draws as well as the yesterday lost reflects to poor quality in squad depth.

Of course Zouma on current level is better than Axel, the guy is France national team player and Kounde who we think as an upgrade can’t even get into the national squad, how is Axel better?

All hypotheticals. The main point is there is literally a toss of a coin difference to who gets the better hand picking United’s current squad and Chelsea’s. Both still require improvements but there is enough there to get second in a league and also do very very very well in all cup competitions.

Your point on Tuchel can do same or even better than what he has done at Chelsea with this squad is also hypothetical then. That’s literary the point I was telling you, your logic has zero common sense and it’s purely your made-up based on weak/lazy evidence. If you watch Tuchel (Chelsea), he rotates because he has quality in his squad depth, what he does cannot support your logic due to lack of quality in our squad depth.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Self-damning, as in "makes it apparent that the person who wrote this doesn't understand what a viable argument is".

There are few things as time-consuming, galling and futile as trying to explain exactly what makes a stupid argument stupid. But if you insist:

We are here but there is absolutely nothing that says if we didn’t just hire Conte we would be lifting a Premier League title like Inter now following his methods on how he seena rebuild.

You're not only comparing reality with a hypothetical possibility that an alternative reality might have been even better, and taking this as indicative of shortcomings, you are also making an unwarranted extrapolation by assuming that since Conte won Serie A with one team, he would also have won the PL with a different team. No doubt you will say that you're not claiming he would, just that he might have. But that just brings you back to your first problem, which is that you're comparing a hypothetical achievement to a real one, with no proof of relevance, and drawing from that entirely unjustified implications. The only thing this shows is that you don't understand how an argument works.

After all he took enough of our players.

Okay, so there are a handful of players who used to play for Man Utd, and who is now part of a team that won Serie A. Which shows what, exactly? Well, it shows that these players are good enough to play for a championship team in Serie A. You think it shows that Antonio Conte is a better manager, which of course it doesn't.

All in all he’s done a good job for his standard. My standards are just different and I see a lot of things in his management that a believe a better manager wouldn’t have made

Let me rephrase that argument for you in a way that makes exactly the same argument with exactly the same degree of validity:

"He's a shit manager because I think he is, and I think he is because he is".

That's not actually an argument, or even a meaningful statement, at all.

You can bring up LVG and Mourinho if you want. But history shows how they manage clubs and there time under us is no big blimp in how they‘ve managed over the years. LVG was just a lot older and outdated and Jose well if you could do a line graph on performance you’ll probably just notice he’s getting progressively worse

This amounts to a jumbled claim that somehow, comparing OGS' results to those of his predecessors isn't relevant (while comparing it to what Antonio Conte has achieved with a different team in a different league somehow is). The reason being that LvG was "old and outdated", and Jose was just plain going downhill, so there. That's called "ignoring evidence which inconveniently fails to support your conclusion". Not a lot of people will read that and think "oh, that's a fair point".

Seriously, you're like that West Ham fan who insisted Moyes was shit and any manager would have brought West Ham to the brink of CL qualification. Because you know, the team is demonstrably doing well, and since Moyes is shit, it can't be because of him. And if it's nothing to do with him, anyone could have done it.

And please, don't make me say the John Cleese thing.

Excellent post.

 

[jem]

As usual with all the insults being thrown back and forth here, it becomes almost impossible to know what people are even discussing. But as for Ole, which is the main point of the thread, I've always had my reservations but there comes a point at which you just have to acknowledge a job very well done. 2nd place and possibly the Europa trophy were two things I never imagined after the Spurs thrashing.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

If United win the league and the CL next season, that would be okay. Or okay-ish.

Wouldn't give Ole any credit for it, though. You can't prove that a different manager (say Conte, or my mum) wouldn't have done the same thing.

In fact, if we finish on 100 points next season, my feeling is that Conte (or my mum) would've finished on 101.

 

[anant]

I absolutely have 0 idea what the feck is being debated in the last 2 pages.

When someone is judging Ole, you arent just judging him but you're analysing the performance of him + coaching staff. So, even if Ole is a noob tactically (which he clearly isn't), as long as someone on his coaching staff can handle that, he is fine. I'm pretty sure when we lose you won't be getting knives out against McKenna or Carrick. Similarly, if we win, I think everyone will credit Ole only.

 

[Mainoldo]

Please elaborate? Because it’s so clear there when you look at the blue colour majority indicates the squad depth.



If there is quality in the squad depth, the rotation wouldn’t be poor. For instance, we played our strongest squad vs Milan and weaker side vs Leicester in FA Cup, what happened? Got knocked out. We dropped our main players vs Istanbul away, we lost 2-1 but beat them 4-1 when we played our main one. All those 0-0 draws as well as the yesterday lost reflects to poor quality in squad depth.

Of course Zouma on current level is better than Axel, the guy is France national team player and Kounde who we think as an upgrade can’t even get into the national squad, how is Axel better?



Your point on Tuchel can do same or even better than what he has done at Chelsea with this squad is also hypothetical then. That’s literary the point I was telling you, your logic has zero common sense and it’s purely your made-up based on weak/lazy evidence. If you watch Tuchel (Chelsea), he rotates because he has quality in his squad depth, what he does cannot support your logic due to lack of quality in our squad depth.

At times this can be so draining. It’s probably how Ed Woodward thinks.. Infact i’m certain this is how Woodward has conversations with football agents.

Anyway we lost those games due to team chemistry and lack of minutes. If you see a good team rotate their squad you notice it’s normally done by keeping a base and not just changing a complete team.

For instance he knew he was going to do a heavy rotation for Villa and Leicester.. if you take the midfield for example he could have dropped Fred for Matic and then dropped McTominay for Fred the game after and gone back to his preferred midfield duo against Liverpool. That gives Matic a run of two games to feel his way into match fitness. Obviously subbing him off at 60 mins for one of those games because of a lactic build up would have been normal.

Instead what he like to do is play a set line up for 6 games then when there is a fixture pile up change a whole line up like Istanbul and Leicester.

You have to play your fringe players alongside your best lineup. SAF done it all the time unless he was just introducing youth in a league cup competition. Not a frigging FA Cup semi final. Also if you rotate like this it saves burnout with your main squad.

As for Axel I’m sure if he had a run of 9 games the whole country would have figured out if he’s good enough for his National team. Kounde I don’t really give a fck about he’s an overrated CB our fans want to spunk £60m on and then probably deflect there lack of football knowledge onto the board and Ole when he fails to live up to his price tag.

 

[Mainoldo]

If United win the league and the CL next season, that would be okay. Or okay-ish.

Wouldn't give Ole any credit for it, though. You can't prove that a different manager (say Conte, or my mum) wouldn't have done the same thing.

In fact, if we finish on 100 points next season, my feeling is that Conte (or my mum) would've finished on 101.

Your Mum ain’t getting the United job mate. I’m sure £8m a year is appealing though. I’d promote my Mum for the job too.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

If United win the league and the CL next season, that would be okay. Or okay-ish.

Wouldn't give Ole any credit for it, though. You can't prove that a different manager (say Conte, or my mum) wouldn't have done the same thing.

In fact, if we finish on 100 points next season, my feeling is that Conte (or my mum) would've finished on 101.

lovely bit of satire.

 

[Mainoldo]

Self-damning, as in "makes it apparent that the person who wrote this doesn't understand what a viable argument is".

There are few things as time-consuming, galling and futile as trying to explain exactly what makes a stupid argument stupid. But if you insist:

We are here but there is absolutely nothing that says if we didn’t just hire Conte we would be lifting a Premier League title like Inter now following his methods on how he seena rebuild.

You're not only comparing reality with a hypothetical possibility that an alternative reality might have been even better, and taking this as indicative of shortcomings, you are also making an unwarranted extrapolation by assuming that since Conte won Serie A with one team, he would also have won the PL with a different team. No doubt you will say that you're not claiming he would, just that he might have. But that just brings you back to your first problem, which is that you're comparing a hypothetical achievement to a real one, with no proof of relevance, and drawing from that entirely unjustified implications. The only thing this shows is that you don't understand how an argument works.

After all he took enough of our players.

Okay, so there are a handful of players who used to play for Man Utd, and who is now part of a team that won Serie A. Which shows what, exactly? Well, it shows that these players are good enough to play for a championship team in Serie A. You think it shows that Antonio Conte is a better manager, which of course it doesn't.

All in all he’s done a good job for his standard. My standards are just different and I see a lot of things in his management that a believe a better manager wouldn’t have made

Let me rephrase that argument for you in a way that makes exactly the same argument with exactly the same degree of validity:

"He's a shit manager because I think he is, and I think he is because he is".

That's not actually an argument, or even a meaningful statement, at all.

You can bring up LVG and Mourinho if you want. But history shows how they manage clubs and there time under us is no big blimp in how they‘ve managed over the years. LVG was just a lot older and outdated and Jose well if you could do a line graph on performance you’ll probably just notice he’s getting progressively worse

This amounts to a jumbled claim that somehow, comparing OGS' results to those of his predecessors isn't relevant (while comparing it to what Antonio Conte has achieved with a different team in a different league somehow is). The reason being that LvG was "old and outdated", and Jose was just plain going downhill, so there. That's called "ignoring evidence which inconveniently fails to support your conclusion". Not a lot of people will read that and think "oh, that's a fair point".

Seriously, you're like that West Ham fan who insisted Moyes was shit and any manager would have brought West Ham to the brink of CL qualification. Because you know, the team is demonstrably doing well, and since Moyes is shit, it can't be because of him. And if it's nothing to do with him, anyone could have done it.

And please, don't make me say the John Cleese thing.

I don’t know who John Cleese is... I know Christopher Wallace.


But that was a good read. You say my hypothetical points are irrelevant but if you want to sign a player or a manager hypothetically you are doing this on what they have shown you managing or playing for a different team and possibly a different league. So maybe it’s not as stupid as it sounds.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

At times this can be so draining. It’s probably how Ed Woodward thinks.. Infact i’m certain this is how Woodward has conversations with football agents.

Cut the crap @Mainoldo

If you are half-arse like Ed then you shouldn't be in here and just do what Ed did by resigning from this thread because Ole's thread is just not for you. It will do yourself and everyone favour.

Anyway we lost those games due to team chemistry and lack of minutes. If you see a good team rotate their squad you notice it’s normally done by keeping a base and not just changing a complete team.

For instance he knew he was going to do a heavy rotation for Villa and Leicester.. if you take the midfield for example he could have dropped Fred for Matic and then dropped McTominay for Fred the game after and gone back to his preferred midfield duo against Liverpool. That gives Matic a run of two games to feel his way into match fitness. Obviously subbing him off at 60 mins for one of those games because of a lactic build up would have been normal.

Instead what he like to do is play a set line up for 6 games then when there is a fixture pile up change a whole line up like Istanbul and Leicester.

You have to play your fringe players alongside your best lineup. SAF done it all the time unless he was just introducing youth in a league cup competition. Not a frigging FA Cup semi final. Also if you rotate like this it saves burnout with your main squad.

As for Axel I’m sure if he had a run of 9 games the whole country would have figured out if he’s good enough for his National team. Kounde I don’t really give a fck about he’s an overrated CB our fans want to spunk £60m on and then probably deflect there lack of football knowledge onto the board and Ole when he fails to live up to his price tag.

Are you forgetting the fact that we tried that before and those players still let us down? This led the manager not to have faith in them result in only playing players who are actually good enough.

For instance, VDB was used as rotation in UCL, he played against RB Leipzig, Istanbul 2x and right after the Istanbul home game, he was given a chance to play in much tougher one so we can rest Bruno against West Ham and he didn't perform.
Another example, we played Matic-Fred vs 0-0 Palace, McFred vs 2-0 City, Matic-McT vs 1-1 Milan, McFred vs 1-0 West ham, McFred vs 1-0 Milan & we lost 3-1 when we played Matic-Fred vs Leicester FA Cup. Exclude the yesterday game, we had 9 lost in all comp and 5-6 of them were when Matic was in our starting XI, coincidence?

Look at what Ole did with Greenwood, Cavani, Rashford. They are quality, thus, Ole rotates the three of them together.

You were using ''player's quality'' in your argument with the other poster. Why don't you judge the whole squad then?
McT, Tuanzebe, Brandon, James, VDB, Mata vs Kovacic, Rudiger/Christensen, Azpi, Pulisic, Ziyech, CHO. let's see which one you would rather have for the squad depth based on current ability?

Look at Tomori. Before his loan move to Milan, he was about the same experienced as Axel and he couldn't get games over the other Chelsea's four CB. What makes you think those four are not better than Axel on a current ability?

 

[Karlos PFC]

By your own logic we’ve come as close as we can to finding a manager that meets your benchmark. Which I agree with

Well, no. What I'm saying is that he's done an OK job, no more no less. He's an unproven manager in a big club that can spend what 95% of football clubs worldwide won't (cause they don't have the funds) in 100 years and he's earning his stripes in top level. I'm not trying to accuse him for spending, as I said, if you can why not. Money is power and Man United is a powerful club. Why can't we accept that maybe someone else could have done any better?

Pep has always inherited and been able to get the players he wants. It would have been interesting if we had somehow fooled him into coming here with Ed's smooth talking. Would they have loosened the purse strings or would he have had a nasty shock.

Nah, City were paving the ground since his friends Soriano and Txhiki left Barcelona. They changed a lot of things behind the scenes, academies, style of football etc.
We had no chance of signing him.

But if we got him I think he would spend like all the United managers had.

This is more than a bounce at this stage my man. Sometimes new managers come in and do even worse. I don't know why you think we were bound to improve under any manager. A lot of people were talking about us getting relegated or falling into obscurity under him. Now that he's shown how good he is they're questioning the fact that we haven't won the treble yet.
He inherited a shitshow. A load of old players that should never have been signed, Fellaini, Lukaku, Sanchez etc. He's spent 2 years building a team, whilst also getting us top 4, 2 years in a row and offloading the dross. I would have deemed it acceptable if he got rid of the crap and took a couple of years to get the show on the road and get us back in the Champions league, but he's done both. It's an incredible job.

I don't get why you think that any other manager besides Ole couldn't do any better.

He also inherited Pogba, De Gea, Rashford, Shaw, Martial Lindelof, Fred, MCT which is 8/11 of our starting team.

Whoever the next manager would be he would offload players, as every manager does. It just so happens that the players you mentioned were the most disliked around, mostly cause... you know, Mourinho. Two years toxicity and the final shitshow that is his 3rd season.
If when Ole came, Lukaku or Sanchez started scoring like a maniac I don't think anyone would want them gone.

I've said it before, teams rebuild and develop all the time. In proportion he hasn't done any better than what Rodgers does at Leicester, and remember where Leicester was with Puel.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Why can't we accept that maybe someone else could have done any better?

Because supposedly better managers tried and failed. Ole has turned the club around. We went from a being listing behemoth to fully righted and cruising. For me this shows that Ole's understanding of the club is the most important piece of his skill set.

 

[Mainoldo]

Cut the crap @Mainoldo

If you are half-arse like Ed then you shouldn't be in here and just do what Ed did by resigning from this thread because Ole's thread is just not for you. It will do yourself and everyone favour.

You’re better than that comeback

Are you forgetting the fact that we tried that before and those players still let us down? This led the manager not to have faith in them result in only playing players who are actually good enough.

For instance, VDB was used as rotation in UCL, he played against RB Leipzig, Istanbul 2x and right after the Istanbul home game, he was given a chance to play in much tougher one so we can rest Bruno against West Ham and he didn't perform.
Another example, we played Matic-Fred vs 0-0 Palace, McFred vs 2-0 City, Matic-McT vs 1-1 Milan, McFred vs 1-0 West ham, McFred vs 1-0 Milan & we lost 3-1 when we played Matic-Fred vs Leicester FA Cup. Exclude the yesterday game, we had 9 lost in all comp and 5-6 of them were when Matic was in our starting XI, coincidence?

Matic: 11
McTominay: 23
Fred: 26
Van de Beek: 3
Bruno: 34
Pogba: 20

Those are starting Prem appearance. That is not good squad rotation.

Fernandinho: 11
Gundogan: 21
Rodri: 29
De Bruyne: 22
Silva: 22
Foden: 15

Looks a lot more balanced doesn’t it. Don’t tell me it’s a trust thing because our worst players McFred have the most minutes

Look at what Ole did with Greenwood, Cavani, Rashford. They are quality, thus, Ole rotates the three of them together.

You were using ''player's quality'' in your argument with the other poster. Why don't you judge the whole squad then?
McT, Tuanzebe, Brandon, James, VDB, Mata vs Kovacic, Rudiger/Christensen, Azpi, Pulisic, Ziyech, CHO. let's see which one you would rather have for the squad depth based on current ability?

Rudiger/Christensen Azpi and CHO weren’t getting minutes under Frank so based on your argument the manager didn’t deem them good enough to do a job so why should I now think they are better than our players when McTominay and James get minutes and have been helped us remain second compared to a squad that is beneath us? I’ll go with the group that has us second. I don’t see why you disagree but if you do,Tell me why?

Look at Tomori. Before his loan move to Milan, he was about the same experienced as Axel and he couldn't get games over the other Chelsea's four CB. What makes you think those four are not better than Axel on a current ability?

What about Tomori? A manager thought he wasn’t good enough. He went to a new team with a new manager who believes he is good enough and he is showing he is. This could well be the case for Axel but let’s not bring hypotheticals into this as I got schooled about this word already.

Anyway. Why I cameback in here.

 

[Gazza]

Massive credit to Ole for the job he has done this season. He’s got the team in a really good place right now.

 

[Raveneye]

Self-damning, as in "makes it apparent that the person who wrote this doesn't understand what a viable argument is".

There are few things as time-consuming, galling and futile as trying to explain exactly what makes a stupid argument stupid. But if you insist:

We are here but there is absolutely nothing that says if we didn’t just hire Conte we would be lifting a Premier League title like Inter now following his methods on how he seena rebuild.

You're not only comparing reality with a hypothetical possibility that an alternative reality might have been even better, and taking this as indicative of shortcomings, you are also making an unwarranted extrapolation by assuming that since Conte won Serie A with one team, he would also have won the PL with a different team. No doubt you will say that you're not claiming he would, just that he might have. But that just brings you back to your first problem, which is that you're comparing a hypothetical achievement to a real one, with no proof of relevance, and drawing from that entirely unjustified implications. The only thing this shows is that you don't understand how an argument works.

After all he took enough of our players.

Okay, so there are a handful of players who used to play for Man Utd, and who is now part of a team that won Serie A. Which shows what, exactly? Well, it shows that these players are good enough to play for a championship team in Serie A. You think it shows that Antonio Conte is a better manager, which of course it doesn't.

All in all he’s done a good job for his standard. My standards are just different and I see a lot of things in his management that a believe a better manager wouldn’t have made

Let me rephrase that argument for you in a way that makes exactly the same argument with exactly the same degree of validity:

"He's a shit manager because I think he is, and I think he is because he is".

That's not actually an argument, or even a meaningful statement, at all.

You can bring up LVG and Mourinho if you want. But history shows how they manage clubs and there time under us is no big blimp in how they‘ve managed over the years. LVG was just a lot older and outdated and Jose well if you could do a line graph on performance you’ll probably just notice he’s getting progressively worse

This amounts to a jumbled claim that somehow, comparing OGS' results to those of his predecessors isn't relevant (while comparing it to what Antonio Conte has achieved with a different team in a different league somehow is). The reason being that LvG was "old and outdated", and Jose was just plain going downhill, so there. That's called "ignoring evidence which inconveniently fails to support your conclusion". Not a lot of people will read that and think "oh, that's a fair point".

Seriously, you're like that West Ham fan who insisted Moyes was shit and any manager would have brought West Ham to the brink of CL qualification. Because you know, the team is demonstrably doing well, and since Moyes is shit, it can't be because of him. And if it's nothing to do with him, anyone could have done it.

And please, don't make me say the John Cleese thing.

As someone who argues for a living, bravo! I doubt you'll get a like for a post like this, but justsomebloke has a like in my heart.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

You’re better than that comeback



Matic: 11
McTominay: 23
Fred: 26
Van de Beek: 3
Bruno: 34
Pogba: 20

Those are starting Prem appearance. That is not good squad rotation.

Fernandinho: 11
Gundogan: 21
Rodri: 29
De Bruyne: 22
Silva: 22
Foden: 15

Looks a lot more balanced doesn’t it. Don’t tell me it’s a trust thing because our worst players McFred have the most minutes

How can a manager have a good rotation if there is no quality in the squad depth?

Give Ole Bernardo Silva instead of VDB and Pulisic/Ziyech instead of James/Mata. He will rotate them well just like what he did to Rashford, Greenwood & Cavani.

Rudiger/Christensen Azpi and CHO weren’t getting minutes under Frank so based on your argument the manager didn’t deem them good enough to do a job so why should I now think they are better than our players when McTominay and James get minutes and have been helped us remain second compared to a squad that is beneath us? I’ll go with the group that has us second. I don’t see why you disagree but if you do,Tell me why?

Your argument is about what Tuchel can do with this squad mate not Frank. You seem to be all over the place not knowing your own original argument here.

Why do you prefer to go with the group that has us second if you can achieve better with City & Chelsea squad depth? Give Ole better quality of squad depth like City & Chelsea, he will do much better than just being second and instead he will go far in FA Cup, UCL and still challenging in PL. Agree?

What about Tomori? A manager thought he wasn’t good enough. He went to a new team with a new manager who believes he is good enough and he is showing he is. This could well be the case for Axel but let’s not bring hypotheticals into this as I got schooled about this word already.

Anyway. Why I cameback in here.

That's why he went to Serie A. Have you been watching Serie A? I doubt it.

 

[Halftrack]

Your argument is about what Tuchel can do with this squad mate not Frank. You seem to be all over the place not knowing your own original argument here.

That's @Mainoldo for you. The guy couldn't construct a coherent argument to save his life, and I'm unsure if he even tries to.

It's amazing that he's still allowed to go on with his bad faith bullshit.

 

[Karlos PFC]

Because supposedly better managers tried and failed. Ole has turned the club around. We went from a being listing behemoth to fully righted and cruising. For me this shows that Ole's understanding of the club is the most important piece of his skill set.

The "we've tried more experienced managers and failed" and the "understanding of the club" are just lazy excuses for wishful thinking.

You don't have to "understand " the club to be successful, and there are literally countless examples that can back this.

So we've tried Van Gaal knowing that it was his last job and Mourinho that everybody could see the decline after the Madrid job. And they failed, so instead of searching for a coach that is not past it, plays attacking football and has experience in top level, we went the route for an unproven (in top level) manager that "gets the club". Man if I knew it at that time I'd send a CV. I get the club and have played football 15 years ago.