Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

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Sarni said:
Well, let's say a manager would have taken over after 6 games this season when we were in 16th, and got us to finish 8th this year and 2nd/3rd next year, but then 10th the following two seasons. Would you consider that good because we were 16th when they took over, or would you just consider 6 games of this season pretty meaningless in the overall picture because it's clear it was just a bad run?
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Right, let's at least start off with getting the facts right.

SAF took over a side in absolute free-fall, not in a "bad run". We'd already been knocked out of the league Cup after a 4-1 twatting by Southampton and sat 21st in the league after 13 games (not 8th), we had won just 3 games all season. That was a third of the season gone and we were 21st man.

The previous season we'd won just 5 of our final 17 league games. That's 30 games, 8 wins, so maybe time to rethink your idea of a "bad run".
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Right, let's at least start off with getting the facts right.

SAF took over a side in absolute free-fall, not in a "bad run". We'd already knocked out of the league Cup after a 4-1 twatting by Southampton and sat 21st in the league after 13 games (not 8), we had won just 3 games all season. That was a third of the season gone and we were 21st man.
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My bad. Thought there were about 7 or 8 games passed when he took over. It's a different picture then for his first two seasons, was wrong about that.
 
Sarni said:
My bad. Thought there were about 7 or 8 games passed when he took over. It's a different picture then for his first two seasons, was wrong about that.
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Also, remember these facts @Sarni

• In 1985-86, yes we finished 4th, but feck me, it was actually down to a freakish run of good form that did it. We won 10 on the bounce to start the season, and then went on to win just 12 of the remaining 32 games.

• So after that 10 game winning streak with Big Ron, leading up to SAF:s appointment we'd won just 15 from 45 games (33% win rate). For SAF to take that same side and in 1.5 seasons take it to 2nd, winning 23 from 40 (57.5%) was the true measure of the man.

Yes that was followed with a couple of shocking league seasons, but I was at the final in 1990 and to call that a "bad season" is to show a real lack of understanding as to how big and important the FA Cup was back then, it was a massive achievement and we all saw that season as a massive success due to it. Even more so due to the European football ban on English clubs after Heysel and this being our route back to it at the first opportunity, it felt huge and incredibly exciting.

So SAF had one bad un, and it was terrible, but it was forgiven somewhat due to the credit he'd earned and the huge changes he was making. The FA Cup winning season was when most lost patience mid-season, and yes people slated him at the ground, in the pubs, at work, of course they did, it wasn't online for all to see but fans absolutely did slate him, doubt him etc etc. But he pulled through with that massive FA Cup win and that meant he had, in his 3 full seasons, taken a side from utter free-fall to a 2nd placed finish, and an FA Cup win that took Manchester United back into Europe, in a competition we ultimately won vs. Barcelona the following season. It's not quite the shit show some try now to make out.

So please mate, don't belittle SAF:s achievements just to try and defend Ole or any other manager for that matter. There are better arguments for it, and there are good debates to be had regarding Ole in here, but you won't find them jumping in with insane straw-men arguments and claiming fans wanna be right more than watch their team win. I mean, how many fans celebrated being "right" about Moyes? The whole fecking thing was just depressing. The fans, and the were in the majority, that doubted SAF in 1989-90, you think they were gutted to be wrong and forced to be reminded of it with every Premier League title and every European title?

My big point with Ole right now is that he's not done poor enough to be sacked, I've twice called for it though, but now I'm back seeing him in a position where the only reason I'd sack him, even if he finishes 5th, is if we have seen something very special in another manager/coach that we can get an agreement with. Sacking him for the sake of bringing in say Allegri because he's the "obvious" unemployed one would serve no purpose in my mind.
SAF is the best manager ever in my eyes, but he was twice utterly humiliated by Pep, yes it was an incredible side but so was ours, Tevez, Ronaldo, Rooney, Rio, Evra, Vidic, VDS. That makes me think it'll take someone incredibly special, a la Klopp, to better him.
 
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7 points from 21 against the big six

Falling to qualify from the group stages of the CL, despite only needing 1 point over 3 games

Being first and ahead of City to being 15 points behind (despite saying we wont let them have it easy)

Plays Rashford out of position to accommodate an out of form Martial and continues doing it

Being so scared of getting beat sets up teams with two sitting mfs against the lower league teams at home

Cant work out tactics to beat a low press

Signed DvB and completely misuses him throughout the season, destroying any semblance of the player he was last season

Signs an almost £40m winger then refuses to play him when out biggest weakness is the right wing

Ole is getting too much credit as he was a player for us, lack of fans has helped him keep his job, tactically inept, devoid of game management, can any poster on here tell me what out game plan under Ole is? Is it, win the ball pass to Bruno and hope for the best?

I actually dont blame Ole as such I blame the shitstorm that is our owners for being fine with us not challenging aslong as their bank balance is fine. I blame Ed and Judge for playing FM and thinking they know the job better than a proper DoF would.

8 years of mediocrity under Eds watch and shit wont change anytime soon
 
Feck me this is getting ridiculous. If Ole had won the EL and the Portuguese League he will have the fans supporting him because he has already won a reputable trophy and the credit and the know how to win major trophies. The same way Klopp had when he came to Liverpool.

Why don't we call for Bruce to be appointed as Manager? He was the Captain who won our first league after such a long time. He was the Captain who won our first European trophy after 1968.
He has managed for a very long time too. Bigger clubs than Cardiff and Molde. He was one of us. A legend.
 
Foxbatt said:
Why don't we call for Bruce to be appointed as Manager? He was the Captain who won our first league after such a long time. He was the Captain who won our first European trophy after 1968.
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Nope.

bryan-robson-of-manchester-united-celebrates-with-the-trophy-after-picture-id935246866
 
People really need to take a step back and just think with cool heads when was the last time a team at 2nd place in the league was criticized for results.

Just think about how ridiculous some of the arguments are. You're having one of the youngest sides in the division who, not many gave a chance to finish in top 4 at the end of summer transfer window, at 2nd place after 27 games. Well 3 years ago, we were 2nd in the league - I don't remember Mou Out going on in the background, certainly not because of the results. Some of us, who had turned against him, had turned because the underlying numbers were horseshit and we were reliant on a GK's shot stopping ability. City fans and pundits were sympathetic to City's slump last year. Pool fans were ecstatic with 2nd 2 years ago. Spurs were happy 4 and 5 years ago. So, what changed that suddenly a side that finished 32-33 points behind the champions the season before is expected to be at top? Did we suddenly buy some WC players? Or something else?

Most of us acknowledge 2017-18 as a decent season, not a successful one, but not a season where you can sack a manager on the basis of results. A lot of us were Mou Out, I agree and I was one of them, but a lot of it was because of the underlying data, the Sevilla speech and a lot of other factors rather than league performance. Compare this season to that one for a second to keep expectations in check - mind we were expected to put in a title challenge that season, unlike this one. In the league after 27 games- we were 16 points off top that season, we're 14 this one. We went out in QF in LC that season, we reached SF this one. In CL, we reached last 16, but we had a piss easy group and we were knocked out to Sevilla. This season, while we went out in GS, we went out against two teams who reached semis in the last season. Reached finals of FA Cup that season. We're already in QF this time, and have knocked out some very decent teams en route.

The argument that we were once top and now 14 behind City holds literally 0 value as City are having a better side, and on an incredible run of form. Eventually, it was always likely that they'd catch us, so getting disappointed over that is stupid. Also, the argument that people quote that we're 2nd only because others are shit is a horrible argument. By that logic, Pep has won just 1 league title despite spending a billion dollars, Klopp hasn't won a league title in England, and so on.

Then there is the record vs big teams. Games against bigger sides are always cagey affairs. While you can blame us for not going after it, people seem to forget that bar 0-0 vs City, in every other 0-0, we've had the bigger chances/best chance of the game Don't believe me, read Nick Cox's article on the Athletic today. Is it good enough? No, but it just doesn't sit with the agenda that "6-1 has destroyed our confidence". How about this, compare the average positions of our players vs those of opponent, or better still, compare the average positions of opposition players in their game vs us against their average positions in another big 6 game. If a game is finishing 0-0, there are 2 parties to blame, not just one. And bigger teams will sit back vs us for the obvious reason that on attacking transitions and counters, we're arguably the best side in the league, maybe even Europe.

Then is the low block argument. Look at every game from the start of this season, or how about last February, and tell in how many games have we dropped points to bottom 6 opposition, and then compare this number with say City and Chelsea. I don't think the difference is going to be more than 2-3 games compared to City. Teams drop points all the time.

Then there is the VDB and Amad argument - It maybe because VDB has not settled into our system, and he doesn't want to throw Amad into the deep end. He brought Mason perfectly, and honestly, it could have cost him his job, but I don''t think anyone can question his record of bringing in youth in a patient manner.

And lastly the defence. Does the defence look shaky? Yes at times, but this defence has conceded the 3rd least number of goals since the October international break. Has the team gone defensive in this time period? Only if you count the team with 2nd most number of goals as defensive.

Believe me, no Ole In fan is satisfied with 2nd or 3rd or SF exits, but it's a start. There are signs of progress - we generally are doing well in all cup competitions. Our underlying stats for the 1st time post Fergie place us in top 3/4 and rightly so. The team will grow, but it will take time. The expectations need to be kept in check. You don't ask a toddler who can barely walk to run.

/rant
 
anant said:
People really need to take a step back and just think with cool heads when was the last time a team at 2nd place in the league was criticized for results.

Just think about how ridiculous some of the arguments are. You're having one of the youngest sides in the division who, not many gave a chance to finish in top 4 at the end of summer transfer window, at 2nd place after 27 games. Well 3 years ago, we were 2nd in the league - I don't remember Mou Out going on in the background, certainly not because of the results. Some of us, who had turned against him, had turned because the underlying numbers were horseshit and we were reliant on a GK's shot stopping ability. City fans and pundits were sympathetic to City's slump last year. Pool fans were ecstatic with 2nd 2 years ago. Spurs were happy 4 and 5 years ago. So, what changed that suddenly a side that finished 32-33 points behind the champions the season before is expected to be at top? Did we suddenly buy some WC players? Or something else?

Most of us acknowledge 2017-18 as a decent season, not a successful one, but not a season where you can sack a manager on the basis of results. A lot of us were Mou Out, I agree and I was one of them, but a lot of it was because of the underlying data, the Sevilla speech and a lot of other factors rather than league performance. Compare this season to that one for a second to keep expectations in check - mind we were expected to put in a title challenge that season, unlike this one. In the league after 27 games- we were 16 points off top that season, we're 14 this one. We went out in QF in LC that season, we reached SF this one. In CL, we reached last 16, but we had a piss easy group and we were knocked out to Sevilla. This season, while we went out in GS, we went out against two teams who reached semis in the last season. Reached finals of FA Cup that season. We're already in QF this time, and have knocked out some very decent teams en route.

The argument that we were once top and now 14 behind City holds literally 0 value as City are having a better side, and on an incredible run of form. Eventually, it was always likely that they'd catch us, so getting disappointed over that is stupid. Also, the argument that people quote that we're 2nd only because others are shit is a horrible argument. By that logic, Pep has won just 1 league title despite spending a billion dollars, Klopp hasn't won a league title in England, and so on.

Then there is the record vs big teams. Games against bigger sides are always cagey affairs. While you can blame us for not going after it, people seem to forget that bar 0-0 vs City, in every other 0-0, we've had the bigger chances/best chance of the game Don't believe me, read Nick Cox's article on the Athletic today. Is it good enough? No, but it just doesn't sit with the agenda that "6-1 has destroyed our confidence". How about this, compare the average positions of our players vs those of opponent, or better still, compare the average positions of opposition players in their game vs us against their average positions in another big 6 game. If a game is finishing 0-0, there are 2 parties to blame, not just one. And bigger teams will sit back vs us for the obvious reason that on attacking transitions and counters, we're arguably the best side in the league, maybe even Europe.

Then is the low block argument. Look at every game from the start of this season, or how about last February, and tell in how many games have we dropped points to bottom 6 opposition, and then compare this number with say City and Chelsea. I don't think the difference is going to be more than 2-3 games compared to City. Teams drop points all the time.

Then there is the VDB and Amad argument - It maybe because VDB has not settled into our system, and he doesn't want to throw Amad into the deep end. He brought Mason perfectly, and honestly, it could have cost him his job, but I don''t think anyone can question his record of bringing in youth in a patient manner.

And lastly the defence. Does the defence look shaky? Yes at times, but this defence has conceded the 3rd least number of goals since the October international break. Has the team gone defensive in this time period? Only if you count the team with 2nd most number of goals as defensive.

Believe me, no Ole In fan is satisfied with 2nd or 3rd or SF exits, but it's a start. There are signs of progress - we generally are doing well in all cup competitions. Our underlying stats for the 1st time post Fergie place us in top 3/4 and rightly so. The team will grow, but it will take time. The expectations need to be kept in check. You don't ask a toddler who can barely walk to run.

/rant
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The problem is we won't finish second with the form we are in. Second place should have been sown up by now, but we are now going to find ourselves fighting to remain in the top 4. Our performances this year have been nothing to write home about and there is nothing to suggest that we are going to go on a run to pull ourselves out of this slump. This is the reason why we need a new coaching staff to come in at the end of the season and one of the main reasons why I don't think Ole is the man to make us competitive.
 
anant said:
People really need to take a step back and just think with cool heads when was the last time a team at 2nd place in the league was criticized for results.

Just think about how ridiculous some of the arguments are. You're having one of the youngest sides in the division who, not many gave a chance to finish in top 4 at the end of summer transfer window, at 2nd place after 27 games. Well 3 years ago, we were 2nd in the league - I don't remember Mou Out going on in the background, certainly not because of the results. Some of us, who had turned against him, had turned because the underlying numbers were horseshit and we were reliant on a GK's shot stopping ability. City fans and pundits were sympathetic to City's slump last year. Pool fans were ecstatic with 2nd 2 years ago. Spurs were happy 4 and 5 years ago. So, what changed that suddenly a side that finished 32-33 points behind the champions the season before is expected to be at top? Did we suddenly buy some WC players? Or something else?

Most of us acknowledge 2017-18 as a decent season, not a successful one, but not a season where you can sack a manager on the basis of results. A lot of us were Mou Out, I agree and I was one of them, but a lot of it was because of the underlying data, the Sevilla speech and a lot of other factors rather than league performance. Compare this season to that one for a second to keep expectations in check - mind we were expected to put in a title challenge that season, unlike this one. In the league after 27 games- we were 16 points off top that season, we're 14 this one. We went out in QF in LC that season, we reached SF this one. In CL, we reached last 16, but we had a piss easy group and we were knocked out to Sevilla. This season, while we went out in GS, we went out against two teams who reached semis in the last season. Reached finals of FA Cup that season. We're already in QF this time, and have knocked out some very decent teams en route.

The argument that we were once top and now 14 behind City holds literally 0 value as City are having a better side, and on an incredible run of form. Eventually, it was always likely that they'd catch us, so getting disappointed over that is stupid. Also, the argument that people quote that we're 2nd only because others are shit is a horrible argument. By that logic, Pep has won just 1 league title despite spending a billion dollars, Klopp hasn't won a league title in England, and so on.

Then there is the record vs big teams. Games against bigger sides are always cagey affairs. While you can blame us for not going after it, people seem to forget that bar 0-0 vs City, in every other 0-0, we've had the bigger chances/best chance of the game Don't believe me, read Nick Cox's article on the Athletic today. Is it good enough? No, but it just doesn't sit with the agenda that "6-1 has destroyed our confidence". How about this, compare the average positions of our players vs those of opponent, or better still, compare the average positions of opposition players in their game vs us against their average positions in another big 6 game. If a game is finishing 0-0, there are 2 parties to blame, not just one. And bigger teams will sit back vs us for the obvious reason that on attacking transitions and counters, we're arguably the best side in the league, maybe even Europe.

Then is the low block argument. Look at every game from the start of this season, or how about last February, and tell in how many games have we dropped points to bottom 6 opposition, and then compare this number with say City and Chelsea. I don't think the difference is going to be more than 2-3 games compared to City. Teams drop points all the time.

Then there is the VDB and Amad argument - It maybe because VDB has not settled into our system, and he doesn't want to throw Amad into the deep end. He brought Mason perfectly, and honestly, it could have cost him his job, but I don''t think anyone can question his record of bringing in youth in a patient manner.

And lastly the defence. Does the defence look shaky? Yes at times, but this defence has conceded the 3rd least number of goals since the October international break. Has the team gone defensive in this time period? Only if you count the team with 2nd most number of goals as defensive.

Believe me, no Ole In fan is satisfied with 2nd or 3rd or SF exits, but it's a start. There are signs of progress - we generally are doing well in all cup competitions. Our underlying stats for the 1st time post Fergie place us in top 3/4 and rightly so. The team will grow, but it will take time. The expectations need to be kept in check. You don't ask a toddler who can barely walk to run.

/rant
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Great post. Fully agree.
 
anant said:
Also, the argument that people quote that we're 2nd only because others are shit is a horrible argument. By that logic, Pep has won just 1 league title despite spending a billion dollars, Klopp hasn't won a league title in England, and so on.
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We’ll likely be 3rd after the weekend behind Leicester fecking City, so keep the bravado in check.

Klopp won a league title with 99 points man after just losing out on one with 97 points, so what the feck is your point there?
 
I don't know why some people think his man-management is great. It's some of the worst I can remember.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
We’ll likely be 3rd after the weekend behind Leicester fecking City, so keep the bravado in check.

Klopp won a league title with 99 points man after just losing out on one with 97 points, so what the feck is your point there?
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Klopp won the league when opposition was shite. Going by the logic of posters on here, it shouldn't count due to poor quality of opposition.

Regulus Arcturus Black said:
:lol:

This has to be a piss take?
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Ok so, we're allowed to choose and pick big 6 games, form since Burnley, but not allowed to pick a sample of 24 odd games? I've merely excluded the games where our side was clearly not fit. Same was the case with City as well btw ( who struggled vs Leeds and lost 5-2 vs Leicester)
 
anant said:
/rant
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That was a very good rant, and very coherent by ranting standards.

However, the point you didn't address is that we seem to be sailing backwards at the moment and people are concerned that our form over the last 10 games is joint 5th with four wins from the last 10 league games.
 
anant said:
People really need to take a step back and just think with cool heads when was the last time a team at 2nd place in the league was criticized for results.

Just think about how ridiculous some of the arguments are. You're having one of the youngest sides in the division who, not many gave a chance to finish in top 4 at the end of summer transfer window, at 2nd place after 27 games. Well 3 years ago, we were 2nd in the league - I don't remember Mou Out going on in the background, certainly not because of the results. Some of us, who had turned against him, had turned because the underlying numbers were horseshit and we were reliant on a GK's shot stopping ability. City fans and pundits were sympathetic to City's slump last year. Pool fans were ecstatic with 2nd 2 years ago. Spurs were happy 4 and 5 years ago. So, what changed that suddenly a side that finished 32-33 points behind the champions the season before is expected to be at top? Did we suddenly buy some WC players? Or something else?

Most of us acknowledge 2017-18 as a decent season, not a successful one, but not a season where you can sack a manager on the basis of results. A lot of us were Mou Out, I agree and I was one of them, but a lot of it was because of the underlying data, the Sevilla speech and a lot of other factors rather than league performance. Compare this season to that one for a second to keep expectations in check - mind we were expected to put in a title challenge that season, unlike this one. In the league after 27 games- we were 16 points off top that season, we're 14 this one. We went out in QF in LC that season, we reached SF this one. In CL, we reached last 16, but we had a piss easy group and we were knocked out to Sevilla. This season, while we went out in GS, we went out against two teams who reached semis in the last season. Reached finals of FA Cup that season. We're already in QF this time, and have knocked out some very decent teams en route.

The argument that we were once top and now 14 behind City holds literally 0 value as City are having a better side, and on an incredible run of form. Eventually, it was always likely that they'd catch us, so getting disappointed over that is stupid. Also, the argument that people quote that we're 2nd only because others are shit is a horrible argument. By that logic, Pep has won just 1 league title despite spending a billion dollars, Klopp hasn't won a league title in England, and so on.

Then there is the record vs big teams. Games against bigger sides are always cagey affairs. While you can blame us for not going after it, people seem to forget that bar 0-0 vs City, in every other 0-0, we've had the bigger chances/best chance of the game Don't believe me, read Nick Cox's article on the Athletic today. Is it good enough? No, but it just doesn't sit with the agenda that "6-1 has destroyed our confidence". How about this, compare the average positions of our players vs those of opponent, or better still, compare the average positions of opposition players in their game vs us against their average positions in another big 6 game. If a game is finishing 0-0, there are 2 parties to blame, not just one. And bigger teams will sit back vs us for the obvious reason that on attacking transitions and counters, we're arguably the best side in the league, maybe even Europe.

Then is the low block argument. Look at every game from the start of this season, or how about last February, and tell in how many games have we dropped points to bottom 6 opposition, and then compare this number with say City and Chelsea. I don't think the difference is going to be more than 2-3 games compared to City. Teams drop points all the time.

Then there is the VDB and Amad argument - It maybe because VDB has not settled into our system, and he doesn't want to throw Amad into the deep end. He brought Mason perfectly, and honestly, it could have cost him his job, but I don''t think anyone can question his record of bringing in youth in a patient manner.

And lastly the defence. Does the defence look shaky? Yes at times, but this defence has conceded the 3rd least number of goals since the October international break. Has the team gone defensive in this time period? Only if you count the team with 2nd most number of goals as defensive.

Believe me, no Ole In fan is satisfied with 2nd or 3rd or SF exits, but it's a start. There are signs of progress - we generally are doing well in all cup competitions. Our underlying stats for the 1st time post Fergie place us in top 3/4 and rightly so. The team will grow, but it will take time. The expectations need to be kept in check. You don't ask a toddler who can barely walk to run.

/rant
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But what about patterns of play?

Fantastic post. But I guess we're both just naive.
 
Counterfactual said:
That was a very good rant, and very coherent by ranting standards.

However, the point you didn't address is that we seem to be sailing backwards at the moment and people are concerned that our form over the last 10 games is joint 5th with four wins from the last 10 league games.
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Might be connected to us suddenly picking up a string of injuries in midfield as well as some attackers, leaving us unable to play the varied lineups we did before depending on the opponent.

Yes, lately hasn't been great, but there's also nothing saying we can't turn it around soon? Momentum, especially in such a tight season, is a big thing.
 
Foxbatt said:
Fergie had credit to his name. He won the Scottish League when Scottish football was good. He had won the European Cup Winners Cup with unfancied Aberdeen by beating Real Madrid and Bayern. Klopp didn't win the CL yet we asked him too before he came to Liverpool. It's disingenuous to compare Ole to Fergie as he has not won anything significant nor has he done anything significant as a manager.
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We might still have Moyes managing us, if going by these guys. "Oh..Look at Fergie's first 5 years!!"
 
anant said:
Klopp won the league when opposition was shite. Going by the logic of posters on here, it shouldn't count due to poor quality of opposition.
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Yeah that makes no sense, Klopp took the league with the second highest points total ever. That means he would have won the league in every single Premier League season bar one.
I don’t think you really grasp what people are saying when the say the likes of Chelsea, Spurs & Liverpool have been exceptionally poor.
We’re second yes, but our points total after 27 games would have us:

19-20: 3rd
18-19: 5th
17-18: 6th
16-17: 5th
15-16: joint 3rd/4th
14/15: joint 3rd/4th

That isn’t exactly the same as Guardiola or Klopp utterly annihilating the league is it? Instead of having record points for winning the league, you have to go all the way back to 2000-2001 to find a season where our points total would place you second. Before moneybags Chelsea joined the mix, and before the Arab state joined in.

anant said:
Ok so, we're allowed to choose and pick big 6 games, form since Burnley, but not allowed to pick a sample of 24 odd games? I've merely excluded the games where our side was clearly not fit. Same was the case with City as well btw ( who struggled vs Leeds and lost 5-2 vs Leicester)
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“Allowed”? We have the since Bruno tables, the post lockdown tables, the since the International break tables, the post Spurs tables.
I just don’t get the desperation to find arbitrary dates that fit your narrative.
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Yeah that makes no sense, Klopp took the league with the second highest points total ever. That means it would have won the league every Premier League season bar one.
I don’t think you really grasp what people are saying when the say the likes of Chelsea, Spurs & Liverpool have been exceptionally poor.
We’re second yes, but our points total after 27 games would have us:

19-20: 3rd
18-19: 5th
17-18: 6th
16-17: 5th
15-16: joint 3rd/4th
14/15: joint 3rd/4th




“Allowed”? We have the since Bruno tables, the post lockdown tables, the since the International break tables, the post Spurs tables.
I just don’t get the desperation to find arbitrary dates that fit your narrative.
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Points total after x games doesn't matter, so the argument that Ole is lucky opposition is shit is not something Ole can be blamed for. All it says is if Ole is a poor manager, the guy managing Spurs, Pool, Chelsea, Arsenal, etc. are poorer managers. As simple as that.

Fitting narrative? I'm pretty sure that if sprint and distance covered metrics are available on a game basis, you'd find that teams that played in CL and EL and had a shorter pre-season struggled. All I'm removing is 3 games where the side was clearly not fit.

Btw, funny a couple of you are looking at the post-Burnley table. What's up with that arbitrary date?
 
Hellboy said:
Also the argument of being 2nd. I mean being 2nd after winning 3 in 10

If that‘s not papering over the cracks ...
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Yeh. It's like statistic is all they watch all season and care about. Instead of judging it by watching games where we don't look like big team at all.

They must be sad when we get rid of Mourinho after he managed United to get 2nd. "Waheeyy.. we get 2nd, no matter how fecking shite the football is. Give him another 5 years. Just look at Fergie!!"
 
anant said:
Points total after x games doesn't matter
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Of course it does, it tells you that the quality at the top is lower than it’s been since 2000-2001. It take less wins this season to be 2nd than in any other season since 2000-2001.

The only way season on season to truly judge improvement is win % and points. Some seasons you can win 19 games and finish 6th with 66 points, the next season one less win and the same points might get you 3rd. Have you improved despite winning less games?

How does your Klopp oppoistion comparison nonsense stand up there?

anant said:
Btw, funny a couple of you are looking at the post-Burnley table. What's up with that arbitrary date?
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“Of you”? What do you mean by that?

A post Burnley table is just as stupid as the post Bruno, post lockdown etc nonsense.
 
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Regulus Arcturus Black said:
“Allowed”? We have the since Bruno tables, the post lockdown tables, the since the International break tables, the post Spurs tables.
I just don’t get the desperation to find arbitrary dates that fit your narrative.
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Post lockdown and post Bruno is essentially the same, just some peoples effort to try and distinguish that it's not purely all down to Bruno.

Post international break and post spurs is almost the same as well.
Fact is post the first 3 games in the league (when we didn't seem fit or ready, as many others who also played European cups in the summer did) we have looked much better. So if the talk is about how horrible we are defensively, should we not look at how we perform over time? Since after the first 3 games our defense have been quite solid, and that's with us clearly missing another option at CB and possibly RB as well. It's just that we've been struggling offensively lately, even though we are still second highest scorers in the league.

It's not all doomsday, but we are in a blip now. Some more options incl a starter or two in the summer and we should be very strong.

If even Carragher can say on worldwide television that we look like an attacking team playing on the frontfoot in most games, but are missing some quality up front to make it count, then why can't most United fans see it?
 
Matriac said:
It's not all doomsday, but we are in a blip now. Some more options incl a starter or two in the summer and we should be very strong.

If even Carragher can say on worldwide television that we look like an attacking team playing on the frontfoot in most games, but are missing some quality up front to make it count, then why can't most United fans see it?
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I've been thinking this for 7 years though in fairness, I guess you haven't learned the lesson I have. A few players aint gotta fix this.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Of course it does, it tells you that the quality at the top is lower than it’s been since 2000-2001.

It take less wins this season to be 2nd than in any other season since 2000-2001.

How does your Klopp oppoistion comparison nonsense stand up there?


“Of you”? What do you mean by that?

A post Burnley table is just as stupid as the post Bruno, post lockdown etc nonsense.
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As far as the Klopp argument is concerned, I'm just putting the arguments of Ole outers there. Poor quality of league which meant they walked the league. Maybe in a better season quality wise, he won't. I hope you can now get the ridiculousness of this argument.

And as far as comparing PL totals across seasons is concerned, people have had this argument a hundred times over here, as well as the Pool thread after they finished with 98-99 points. Would you really say that that side was better than our side from 07-08, or how about Leicester's title winners being better than our treble winners?

And by "of you" I meant Ole out posters. Literally scroll up this page and you'd notice "last 10 games", "Post Burnley" points totals being discussed. If you prefer to look at the season as a whole, great - but in that case I'm not sure how are you not happy as we're 2nd (definitely you didn't expect us this high at the start of the season)
 
anant said:
As far as the Klopp argument is concerned, I'm just putting the arguments of Ole outers there. Poor quality of league which meant they walked the league. Maybe in a better season quality wise, he won't.
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With 99 points he fecking would, in every single season bar one.

With 51 points and 14 wins, you have to go back 20 years to be 2nd.

What are you not getting?


anant said:
And as far as comparing PL totals across seasons is concerned, people have had this argument a hundred times over here, as well as the Pool thread after they finished with 98-99 points. Would you really say that that side was better than our side from 07-08, or how about Leicester's title winners being better than our treble winners?

And by "of you" I meant Ole out posters. Literally scroll up this page and you'd notice "last 10 games", "Post Burnley" points totals being discussed. If you prefer to look at the season as a whole, great - but in that case I'm not sure how are you not happy as we're 2nd (definitely you didn't expect us this high at the start of the season)
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I don't want Ole out, I just want you to stop chatting utter drivel. As for the points from a decade ago or 2 decades earlier, no shit. I'm talking about season to season when teams and the quality of the league change very little.

I'm happy we're second, but I'm under no illusions that a) we'll likely be 3rd behind fecking Leicester after the weekend, which would also give Everton a chance to go ahead of us, and West Ham a chance to go level with us, and b) 14 wins in 27 games will not be close to good enough next season to be second, it'll likely be back on the average position of 4th/5th, we need massive improvement just to maintain this position.

No, I didn't expect second at the start of the season, I expected 3rd with our squad. I didn't expect we'd be in a position where after 28 games we're going stride to stride with West Ham, Leicester and Everton. Let's hope we upset everyone at the weekend as keep those feckers in our rear view.
 
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anant said:
If you prefer to look at the season as a whole, great - but in that case I'm not sure how are you not happy as we're 2nd (definitely you didn't expect us this high at the start of the season)
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At the start of the season I definitely did not imagine we would. I was hoping for 3rd, but would be happy with 4th, especially if it wouldn't be hard fought down to the wire like last season.

What I think might be where some fans divide though, is that there are many who are very dissapointed now because we were in first place, but no longer due to us playing worse than before and City going on a run.
Whereas I'm super positive that we were even 1st at all for a string of games mid season for the first time in many years. I'm excited about the prospect of the future. That we managed to get up there is neat and promising to me with the expectations before the season in mind. And maybe I'm naive, but I do think we are just a few players away from really being able to challenge next season, which I also thought would be the case at the beginning of this season.
 
Matriac said:
What I think might be where some fans divide though, is that there are many who are very dissapointed now because we were in first place, but no longer due to us playing worse than before and City going on a run.
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That’s not why fans are/will be disappointed, if we lose at the weekend we’re on course for 69 points, just 3 more than last season, and a points total Leicester, Everton and West Ham will all be close to. The three of them are all matching that points total as of now.
To take just 3 more points than last season considering that horrendous start we had to 2019-2020 should disappoint everyone.
 
This concern about bringing in some coaching outside of the club must be because he fears being shown up by them but that way of thinking is utterly ridiculous
 
Who thought this team is anywhere near good enough to win the league? You must be deluded if you think that. We have proven to ourselves we can at least compete, but there's a difference between being competetive and being able to win. Otherwise Tottenham would have won at least one title under Poch if they were good enough to win the league. Next summer is crucial for Ole in that regard. However, I do believe we are capable of winning cups. Be that the FA Cup, Europa league etc. Ole could do with winning either one, it'll do the team a world of good, and also get a lot of criticism off of his back. He has won trophies before, as a player and manager, he can do it here.

croadyman said:
This concern about bringing in some coaching outside of the club must be because he fears being shown up by them but that way of thinking is utterly ridiculous
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I know that Fletcher used to play for us, but he hadn't been at the club for sometime. It's clear he wants to surround himself with able coaches.
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
That’s not why fans are/will be disappointed, if we lose at the weekend we’re on course for 69 points, just 3 more than last season, and a points total Leicester, Everton and West Ham will all be close to. The three of them are all matching that points total as of now.
To take just 3 more points than last season considering that horrendous start we had to 2019-2020 should disappoint everyone.
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I'd say it's a bit early to say where the points total will end up. Trends change fast. But I'll agree that if we end up below 70 it will be disappointing. If that's still 2nd though that will be weird in its own way.
 
croadyman said:
This concern about bringing in some coaching outside of the club must be because he fears being shown up by them but that way of thinking is utterly ridiculous
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The notion that people think this is true is what is ridiculous.
Ole doesn't do much of the day to day coaching anyway, so how would he be shown up by a coach while he's busy managing the players and the overall strategy with the youth teams etc?

Great leaders hire people who are smarter than themselves. But just because we don't have a Brazilian or Spanish name among the coaching staff doesn't mean we don't have good people there already.

McKenna is the one with the tactics, with input from Carrick and Ole. Phelan seems to mainly assist Ole with tasks, and Fletcher has joined on an advanced trainee type of role to get experience while using his experience as a player to help the team, a role that was available after another assistant moved from the first team to the youth team.

I'm not opposed to us hiring other coaches, but it's not like there's lots of options sitting around without good jobs already.

I'm curious to see if McKenna wants to stay in this type of role for many years or if he's keen to try his hand at managing in first or second division in a year or two. If so they are probably honest within the team and are tapping up possible replacements. The most important factor in succeeding is that the people in the team works well together. We don't need a savant rockstar tactical genius if they can't get along with the rest of the team. I personally don't want to see a Bielsa/Mou-type strict way of playing for us in the future.
 
anant said:
And by "of you" I meant Ole out posters. Literally scroll up this page and you'd notice "last 10 games", "Post Burnley" points totals being discussed. If you prefer to look at the season as a whole, great - but in that case I'm not sure how are you not happy as we're 2nd (definitely you didn't expect us this high at the start of the season)
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I am not unhappy with second place. I'm just not focused on it because it's not the ultimate target. Winning the title or the CL was never likely this season and that's fine, but it is what we should aspire to build to and what this "Solskjaer project" is supposed to lead it eventually.

So I am not overly bothered with results, league position or even CL qualifiaction. I'm focusing on the football we are playing and trying to assess whether it really is on a trajectory that will lead to real success. And I don't believe it is. Obviously the addition of Fernandes was a huge boost in the latter part of last season, and the fact that this season we've had him for the entire season has made a difference, but I don't believe I've seen any progress in our football since the tail end of last season other than Bruno.

So yeah, we can finish second this season, but I don't see us doing better than that in the next season or two, even if we add a player or two, without better coaching. And if Liverpool and/or Chelsea get their act together, it might not be enough for second either.
 
Mainoldo said:
Needs to be embargoed.
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Yes. He should 100% step up and give ourself a fair and real bashing! Focus on the negative and shift blame! Never mind our need for energy..

Ever wonder why you are where you are and never got in to management Minoldo?
 
Regulus Arcturus Black said:
Oh no, @FatherWolff is gonna stop being a fan.

The lifelo... I mean "followed many clubs since childhood" United fan is deserting us, because these days fans are reactionary. :lol: You couldn't make it up.

United fans have always demanded more, it's why a couple 3rd placed finishes and two FA Cups weren't enough to keep Big Ron in the job, and we all wanted him gone if we're honest, it's not a fecking new internet sensation, it's fandom, it's always been stupid as feck and always will be. Dave Sexton the same, finished 2nd did Dave, but boring as feck and everyone wanted him fecked right off.

I'll tell you what is new, is this breed of internet fan who thinks he's a better fan than everyone else, cause he's patient, cause he cares, cause he's non-reactionary and just an all round awesome dude on the internet, the kind of fan any club could only dream of. Nauseating as feck.
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Thank you for proving my point. Studies, experience, science and facts is of no value. For some..
 
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