Ole Gunnar Solskjær | 2021/22 Discussion

[bosnian_red]

Please not the excuses with this. Yes, Everton can be solid on their day. But we got fecking rinsed by them, and our players didn't even look like they cared about the game. It was one of the worst United performances I've ever seen, and with top four on the line it was just completely shocking.

Players and Ole deserve blame for that shower of shite.

Yeah it was a shite performance and we got let off because Arsenal bottled it against Palace. Move on. It was an unacceptable game and nobody is pretending otherwise. But dwelling over it doesn't do anyone any good, and it's not part of a greater issue until that becomes a trend (which you could point to the last 3 of being, but equally you can also say Ok, Barca and City will hammer us 75% of the time and Everton in the middle is a one off). We'll see how we end the season.

My whole point is that if we win the last 3 games and we make top 4 or miss out on GD or whatever happens, Ole would have picked up 47 points from 21 games. Is that deserving of massive criticism? Or is that actually a points tally that nobody would expect this group of players to be able to do yet looks likely that we will.

 

[el3mel]

You also can't expect that a team will win in every game against the teams around 7-10th. Especially not away. Most of the time, theres a pretty standard trend for teams hoping to win the title and get to ~90 points. Stay consistent and win your home games, draw away to the big teams and probably about 4 others who finish just outside the top 6. Stay consistent in the rest. The standard result for games away to Everton, Wolves, palace, Leicester, etc is getting a draw basically. You'll win some, you'll lose some, you'll draw some. But they're tough games. We're currently on a bad run of form, go back a month and we were at the end of a brilliant run of form. Shit happens. We won tough games, we lost some tough games. Not sure what you expected.

You can't be talking seriously. I won't say anything except you have to review your expectations of United.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Expectations in the face of realization. You can't talk about how shite the squad is and then blame the manager holding the pieces of four past managers for the loss. And that doesn't mean it's fine to lose to those. But there is an intellectual understanding that it's probably going to happen against them.

The question is, can it be fixed? I can answer part of that right now: Not over the next three weeks. Does it make anyone happy? Heck no. But blaming Ole for it all is neither productive nor honest.

Where does crediting Ole with the early success fit into your intellectual understanding?

 

[Gator Nate]

Where does crediting Ole with the early success fit into your intellectual understanding?

Putting players in better positioning... until they physically broke down. He's been playing catch-up with that ever since. But that's well documented, too.

Oh, and an easier run of teams. He did knock out Spurs and Chelsea, though, so there's that.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

Putting players in better positioning... until they physically broke down. He's been playing catch-up with that ever since. But that's well documented, too.

Oh, and an easier run of teams. He did knock out Spurs and Chelsea, though, so there's that.

So in other words the transition from crediting him for the success and deflecting blame for the failures is completely seamless for you. Consider the stupidity noted.

 

[breakout67]

These past 2 months have confirmed for me that this dressing room is absolutely rotten. They play well when Ole is all buddy buddy with them, but when he becomes permanent manager and starts calling players out to improve they give up. There is no excuse that they are being called out in public, Ole is not doing that.

 

[Gator Nate]

So in other words the transition from crediting him for the success and deflecting blame for the failures is completely seamless for you. Consider the stupidity noted.

I suppose all we need is Poch, then, eh? The guy that, with a team of his own devising, has succeeded in scoring 7 fewer points than Ole over the last 18 games?

 

[bosnian_red]

He took full credit for the amazing run at the start in the wins against Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs etc, so not giving him some of the blame and pretending now it's fine to lose to Everton and Wolves as they're good side is just illogical and dare to say, hypocrisy.

Of course the players are dogshite and they deserve most of the blame, but blaming those who are starting to have some questions on Ole after we lost 7 in 9 and having one of our worst ever runs in the past few years and acting like it's fine now to lose 4-0 to Everton or lose twice in a row in less than 2 weeks against Wolves is weird logic. Saying this is overreacting means you don't understand how god awful we have been in this last 1 or 2 months.

I'm on the side of thinking the players are shite and take most of the blame while Ole isn't the biggest problem but have things to answer for his weird in game management and some terrible formations, but it's mostly the players at this point. However, blaming people for questioning manager after 7 losses in 9, scoring no goals in 4 hours and no open play goal in 8 hours, 6th in the league and out of all competitions while not being even fun to watch (the thing you and many others kept asking for and we still can't even deliver it) is hardly overreacting. Yeah it's definitely full doom and gloom at this point. They're normal questions. You can disagree with them, and I'm not entirely on the point of blaming him for everything but is a normal reaction. If you think it's overreaction, the teams we lost against are good sides and it's fine to lose these ways (while actually gods like City and Barca lost against worst opponents this season anyway, certainly not invincible) means your expectations have reached rock bottom. That we should only expect wins against dross and relegation fodders as any decent side we're facing it's 50/50 and fine to lose it.

I think you should review your expectations. The run we're in now is simply not acceptable for both the manager and players. Yeah the players hold most of the blame but Ole did several mistakes and some terrible formations and in game management.

I dont disagree with the majority of what you said. When I say overreacting, I'm pointing at those who are overly flipping out, saying he should never have been hired, it's a mistake, they want him sacked or they hope he walks etc. Because you need to look at the full picture for that. And the full picture is we might sneak into the top 4 from a hopeless situation and points wise he's done better than everyone bar the top 2. And it's never fine to lose. Its just understandable and doesnt warrant a full meltdown. We lose to City - it's the expected result. We lose yo Barca - expected. It's a shock when we pull off results like PSG away. That's the reality of the squad.
I'm not going to have unrealistic expectations for Ole because of the state the previous managers left this squad. Not gonna blame him for De Gea having his head turned, Pogba wanting out, Herrera not even opening talks for a contract until there was 6 months left on his contract. That's all shit that affects the squad but was completely out of his control. Yes, he hasnt been perfect. But I'm willing to give some time (actual time with an actual fair transfer window) for him to get it right. When a manager takes over mid season, theres not much you can hope for. It's incredibly difficult to come in and play a different style with any success when you take over half way through a season. People mentioning Klopp are way off base too, because they were fecking shite for a year and he had 2 months longer in charge.

Given the situation Ole took over - it would be a great achievement if we get top 4. If we just miss out, then so be it, but that was what looked all but confirmed back in December and nobody felt it was remotely possible (yet here we are, with a chance). The fair time to even start to judge Ole will be around December next season IMO. He'll have his summer window and pre season to start changing the squad to his preferences, so we need to see progression then, but right now? Just think it's crazy to look at the likes of Young at right back, smalling at CB, mctominay, Pereira, fred, Matic in midfield and lingard playing regularly in attack and expect them to be world beaters. Hell, throw in Lukaku for being technically an awful footballer. Rashford for being far from the finished product yet expected to lead the line. Martial for being a lazy shit and mainly turning up when its easier like how Pogba does. De Gea for losing form, having his head turned, being distracted and starting to concede goals from everywhere and ruining good periods of play from us. The list goes on, it's a shite situation we are in right now with so much uncertainty around the majority of our squad, but I just cant expect a manager that took over mid December after this team took 26 points from 17 games and had a goal difference of 0 - and expect him to turn this group of players into title challengers and show that consistency.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

I suppose all we need is Poch, then, eh? The guy that, with a team of his own devising, has succeeded in scoring 7 fewer points than Ole over the last 18 games?

18 games and an emotional hunch is enough to decide the boss of Man United? Yikes.

 

[Greck]

These past 2 months have confirmed for me that this dressing room is absolutely rotten. They play well when Ole is all buddy buddy with them, but when he becomes permanent manager and starts calling players out to improve they give up. There is no excuse that they are being called out in public, Ole is not doing that.

That he hasn't thrown them under the bus publicly isn't really a problem. It's good management

 

[el3mel]

I dont disagree with the majority of what you said. When I say overreacting, I'm pointing at those who are overly flipping out, saying he should never have been hired, it's a mistake, they want him sacked or they hope he walks etc. Because you need to look at the full picture for that. And the full picture is we might sneak into the top 4 from a hopeless situation and points wise he's done better than everyone bar the top 2. And it's never fine to lose. Its just understandable and doesnt warrant a full meltdown. We lose to City - it's the expected result. We lose yo Barca - expected. It's a shock when we pull off results like PSG away. That's the reality of the squad.
I'm not going to have unrealistic expectations for Ole because of the state the previous managers left this squad. Not gonna blame him for De Gea having his head turned, Pogba wanting out, Herrera not even opening talks for a contract until there was 6 months left on his contract. That's all shit that affects the squad but was completely out of his control. Yes, he hasnt been perfect. But I'm willing to give some time (actual time with an actual fair transfer window) for him to get it right. When a manager takes over mid season, theres not much you can hope for. It's incredibly difficult to come in and play a different style with any success when you take over half way through a season. People mentioning Klopp are way off base too, because they were fecking shite for a year and he had 2 months longer in charge.

Given the situation Ole took over - it would be a great achievement if we get top 4. If we just miss out, then so be it, but that was what looked all but confirmed back in December and nobody felt it was remotely possible (yet here we are, with a chance). The fair time to even start to judge Ole will be around December next season IMO. He'll have his summer window and pre season to start changing the squad to his preferences, so we need to see progression then, but right now? Just think it's crazy to look at the likes of Young at right back, smalling at CB, mctominay, Pereira, fred, Matic in midfield and lingard playing regularly in attack and expect them to be world beaters. Hell, throw in Lukaku for being technically an awful footballer. Rashford for being far from the finished product yet expected to lead the line. Martial for being a lazy shit and mainly turning up when its easier like how Pogba does. De Gea for losing form, having his head turned, being distracted and starting to concede goals from everywhere and ruining good periods of play from us. The list goes on, it's a shite situation we are in right now with so much uncertainty around the majority of our squad, but I just cant expect a manager that took over mid December after this team took 26 points from 17 games and had a goal difference of 0 - and expect him to turn this group of players into title challengers and show that consistency.

I don't disagree with most of your points either. The only 2 things I disagreed about I mentioned :

a)Thinking people are overreacting over our current form. You need to put in consideration that some didn't want him from the start and were saying that here even before he was appointed. I was firmly in the camp to put him in charge, but could understand the opinion of waiting till end of the season before making a decision. These people are starting to express their worry of their opinions might have been right. The current form and run is definitely god awful.

b)thinking since we played good sides or have tough games it's not a major problem if we lose. This is the biggest point of disagreement between us I believe.

 

[bosnian_red]

You can't be talking seriously. I won't say anything except you have to review your expectations of United.

I'll review my expectations of Ole when he has time to shape the squad. Not taking over an awful situation and expecting him to take an unbalanced and disjointed squad and expecting everything to be great. This half season for me was basically a free hit IMO, yet hes exceeded expectations in terms of getting this squad picking up the 3rd most points and a fair share of big results, especially if we finish 4th.

 

[Greck]

There's nothing wrong with losing tricky fixtures here and there from time to time. Problem is we've started losing tricky fixtures Everywhere Everytime.

 

[Bojan11]

So who is in charge of recruitment in the summer? Are we going to make the same mistakes? Give Ole free hand and when that doesn’t work we are stuck with more unwanted players for the next manager.

 

[Treble]

Thought our tactics last night made sense. City start their games strongly and score early goals. Ole wanted to make sure this wouldn't happen. Thought we were the more dangerous side in the first 30 min. After that we weren't fresh enough and City dominated.

 

[GlastonSpur]

I suppose all we need is Poch, then, eh? The guy that, with a team of his own devising, has succeeded in scoring 7 fewer points than Ole over the last 18 games?

You might want look at the last 5 years, rather than the last 18 games ... not to mention the fixture list during those games, dumping City out of CL or the hundreds of millions more spent by United compared to that available to Pochettino.

 

[bosnian_red]

I don't disagree with most of your points either. The only 2 things I disagreed about I mentioned :

a)Thinking people are overreacting over our current form. You need to put in consideration that some didn't want him from the start and were saying that here even before he was appointed. I was firmly in the camp to put him in charge, but could understand the opinion of waiting till end of the season before making a decision. These people are starting to express their worry of their opinions might have been right. The current form and run is definitely god awful.

b)thinking since we played good sides or have tough games it's not a major problem if we lose. This is the biggest point of disagreement between us I believe.

On the second point - I think it's just in a normal season, you'd expect to win half of your big games against teams at a similar level to you. Anything more is rare. Look at Fergies big game results year on year. Occasionally we dominated them, pretty often we had a bit of an even split in them but won the games we expected to win. It's to be expected against teams at the same level. Especially away, it's even harder. If you look at the best of the rest teams like Everton, Leicester, wolves, Watford, palace, west ham maybe - I'd expect to win the home games, then have the wins/draws/losses be pretty evenly split away from home. That's what I would think is standard for most title challenging teams. Of course you cant ever "accept" losing, but it's to be expected that over a season, those results will happen in those games occasionally.

On the first point, that's all valid, but there is no point whinging about him being here. People had valid concerns, but he has the job, and its overly harsh to criticize him too heavily and want him out already and have so many on here be so vocal after a bad run of form when he hasnt even had a transfer window. Ole is figuring out which players he can trust and which ones he cant, he knows which ones he likes and which ones he doesnt. I'd expect big changes this summer but obviously it cant all be done. Even still, you look at our midfield, and while it started at Matic, pogba and Herrera, its turned into mctominay/pereira/fred alongside Pogba because Matic is horribly past it and Herrera has pretty much agreed a move elsewhere. Even pogba wants out because of how bad it was between him and Mourinho. He cant make signings or sell players during the season, so we just have to make do with what we have and be patient. Everyone here expected to lose to Barca and City, yet after it happened, everyone loses their shit because Ole didnt pull off the unexpected. Wasnt even a bad performance vs City, the tactics were mostly fine, just at a certain level, the players arent good enough so if you dont take your chances like Lingards miss, and if your keeper fecks up, you'll lose.

Obviously people have valid concerns, I'm not discrediting that, it's the people complaining without even acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, Ole was put in an almost impossible situation and on the whole has had a very positive impact still.

 

[bosnian_red]

You might want look at the last 5 years, rather than the last 18 games ... not to mention the fixture list during those games, dumping City out of CL or the hundreds of millions more spent by United compared to that available to Pochettino.

Well what hes talking about is just since Ole took over a strict comparison of people flipping out when Ole has picked up more points than Poch and everyone else bar City and Liverpool... The money wasted is irrelevant, because that has nothing to do with Ole. Literally the majority of our top 15 earners are going to leave the club in the next 2 years probably anyway.

 

[Mike Oxard]

Olé has a place in our hearts, but we all know that given his experience thus far is akin to managing the Dog and Duck FC, the chances of him getting Utd back to being challengers is a long, long shot. Who we really need of course is Guardiola, who would get a tune out of the current squad (maybe not winning things, but better than the current fiasco). On the basis that getting him is about as realistic as me pulling Scarlett Johanson in a Salford pub, we need to identify a ‘holding’ manager until the long term manager becomes available. The ‘holder’ needs experience and be able to steady the ship. Someone like Benitez could do it until we decide on the type of coach we really want. It’s not Olé I’m afraid, who I fear will be gone by the end of the year and will be permanently damaged (like Moyes), by the job.

 

[Revaulx]

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? At the end of the day, Woodward's reputation has taken a hammering after getting the managerial appointment wrong three times in a row. Reputation aside, he'll be dying inside from signing off so much money on transfers for so little return. I don't like the guy and hate it when he interferes in the footballing side of things but one thing I am willing to give him credit for is not hiring Ole on an impulse, without any due diligence. That wouldn't be in his nature. That's not the style of someone who has been so succesful at bringing in money in to the club since he took over as CEO. Due diligence is literally a financial concept, after all!

Wouldn’t it? Not if you believe the article in the Independent the other day.

You’d certainly expect an ex-merchant banker to be a ruthless, dispassionate cnut. But apparently where football is concerned he’s impulsive and emotional, and takes as his guide the headlines on the back pages of the red tops. It’s only a newspaper article, but it’s well argued and rings true to me.

I posted a link to it; in the Ed Woodward thread I think.

 

[el3mel]

On the second point - I think it's just in a normal season, you'd expect to win half of your big games against teams at a similar level to you. Anything more is rare. Look at Fergies big game results year on year. Occasionally we dominated them, pretty often we had a bit of an even split in them but won the games we expected to win. It's to be expected against teams at the same level. Especially away, it's even harder. If you look at the best of the rest teams like Everton, Leicester, wolves, Watford, palace, west ham maybe - I'd expect to win the home games, then have the wins/draws/losses be pretty evenly split away from home. That's what I would think is standard for most title challenging teams. Of course you cant ever "accept" losing, but it's to be expected that over a season, those results will happen in those games occasionally.

On the first point, that's all valid, but there is no point whinging about him being here. People had valid concerns, but he has the job, and its overly harsh to criticize him too heavily and want him out already and have so many on here be so vocal after a bad run of form when he hasnt even had a transfer window. Ole is figuring out which players he can trust and which ones he cant, he knows which ones he likes and which ones he doesnt. I'd expect big changes this summer but obviously it cant all be done. Even still, you look at our midfield, and while it started at Matic, pogba and Herrera, its turned into mctominay/pereira/fred alongside Pogba because Matic is horribly past it and Herrera has pretty much agreed a move elsewhere. Even pogba wants out because of how bad it was between him and Mourinho. He cant make signings or sell players during the season, so we just have to make do with what we have and be patient. Everyone here expected to lose to Barca and City, yet after it happened, everyone loses their shit because Ole didnt pull off the unexpected. Wasnt even a bad performance vs City, the tactics were mostly fine, just at a certain level, the players arent good enough so if you dont take your chances like Lingards miss, and if your keeper fecks up, you'll lose.

Obviously people have valid concerns, I'm not discrediting that, it's the people complaining without even acknowledging that maybe, just maybe, Ole was put in an almost impossible situation and on the whole has had a very positive impact still.

The game being tough or against a decent side isn't an excuse for me to lose tbh, that's my point, as you won't face dross all the time and more importantly, you didn't lose the games against the run, like having a good game, creating chances and trying to win then the opposition grabs a lucky goal and escaping with the win. These things happen. You got absolutely trashed and humiliated, like losing 0-4 to Everton. Even if Everton is good team, or Wolves are a pretty decent side, losing 0-4 to Everton or losing twice in a row in less than 3 weeks is unacceptable for United, thus the concerns are logical imo.

Against City we had 36% possession stat at home. That's really not good at all. It's fine to lose when the loss is against the run of the game or you gave it your all. We didn't which is the major problem so these losses can't just be because the opposition were decent.

 

[bosnian_red]

The game being tough or against a decent side isn't an excuse for me to lose tbh, that's my point, as you won't face dross all the time and more importantly, you didn't lose the games against the run, like having a good game, creating chances and trying to win then the opposition grabs a lucky goal and escaping with the win. These things happen. You got absolutely trashed and humiliated, like losing 0-4 to Everton. Even if Everton is good team, or Wolves are a pretty decent side, losing 0-4 to Everton or losing twice in a row in less than 3 weeks is unacceptable for United, thus the concerns are logical imo.

Against City we had 36% possession stat at home. That's really not good at all. It's fine to lose when the loss is against the run of the game or you gave it your all. We didn't which is the major problem so these losses can't just be because the opposition were decent.

It's not an excuse, just when you look at a group of games at the start of any given season, you expect a few of them to be losses, so on reflection, it's more like "yeah I guess it happens" rather then "oh my god it's the end of the world". I agree that the Everton game was absolutely unacceptable, that and the Wolves cup game were the 2 that I have the biggest (and only real) problems with tbh. The Wolves league game I actually thought was mostly a good performance (for the most part). We controlled the game fully, we created enough and enough quality chances to score about 4 goals, didn't take our chances, had some players make absolutely comedic errors (Young's red card was idiotic, their 2nd goal was beyond laughable, etc), and we ended up losing. Things like the Arsenal game I don't blame at all on Ole, as we played well, created loads, hit the woodwork twice, but lost thanks to a De Gea mistake and then the referee giving them a pen out of nothing, as well as our strikers' inability to finish (which happens sometimes to everyone, but the frequency it happens to us is more down to just a lack of quality).

As for the possession against City, well, I don't know what to tell you other then do you really expect any team in the world to dictate the possession anywhere against a team manager by Pep Guardiola? United in the 2011 CL final against Barcelona had less than 32%. Even in 2007/08, that United side that was as good as any United side ever and won the double, Barcelona had 62-63% possession against us at Old Trafford, and that was far from a Pep side and none of Xavi, Iniesta or Messi were anywhere close to their peak. Dominating possession, home or away, against Barcelona or any team managed by Pep is just not going to happen, didn't happen under Sir Alex in our greatest squads, certainly won't happen with the shite we have to put out.

 

[el3mel]

It's not an excuse, just when you look at a group of games at the start of any given season, you expect a few of them to be losses, so on reflection, it's more like "yeah I guess it happens" rather then "oh my god it's the end of the world". I agree that the Everton game was absolutely unacceptable, that and the Wolves cup game were the 2 that I have the biggest (and only real) problems with tbh. The Wolves league game I actually thought was mostly a good performance (for the most part). We controlled the game fully, we created enough and enough quality chances to score about 4 goals, didn't take our chances, had some players make absolutely comedic errors (Young's red card was idiotic, their 2nd goal was beyond laughable, etc), and we ended up losing. Things like the Arsenal game I don't blame at all on Ole, as we played well, created loads, hit the woodwork twice, but lost thanks to a De Gea mistake and then the referee giving them a pen out of nothing, as well as our strikers' inability to finish (which happens sometimes to everyone, but the frequency it happens to us is more down to just a lack of quality).

As for the possession against City, well, I don't know what to tell you other then do you really expect any team in the world to dictate the possession anywhere against a team manager by Pep Guardiola? United in the 2011 CL final against Barcelona had less than 32%. Even in 2007/08, that United side that was as good as any United side ever and won the double, Barcelona had 62-63% possession against us at Old Trafford, and that was far from a Pep side and none of Xavi, Iniesta or Messi were anywhere close to their peak. Dominating possession, home or away, against Barcelona or any team managed by Pep is just not going to happen, didn't happen under Sir Alex in our greatest squads, certainly won't happen with the shite we have to put out.

I don't think games like Everton are those we look at and expect losses at the start of the season. They're not Liverpool at Anfield or Chelsea at the Bridge. We actually had a pretty good record against them the last few seasons and our last loss against them at their home was back to LVG first season. Our last 3 games at home there were 3-0 win, 1-1 when they equalized by a late pen and 2-0 win. It hasn't been as hard game as you're describing it the last 3 seasons.

As for the rest of the matches, don't really agree to any of the excuses you mentioned for losing them but have to agree to disagree. Yeah the players made several errors in them but Ole's formations, lineups and tactics weren't good at all in many of them to be fair and honest. He definitely had part of the blame even if it's not the most, he had and he made his own mistakes.

Was the point of having only 36% possession against City is normal same for you when Mourinho was in charge ?

 

[bosnian_red]

I don't think games like Everton are those we look at and expect losses at the start of the season. They're not Liverpool at Anfield or Chelsea at the Bridge. We actually had a pretty good record against them the last few seasons and our last loss against them at their home was back to LVG first season. Our last 3 games at home there were 3-0 win, 1-1 when they equalized by a late pen and 2-0 win. It hasn't been as hard game as you're describing it the last 3 seasons.

As for the rest of the matches, don't really agree to any of the excuses you mentioned for losing them but have to agree to disagree. Yeah the players made several errors in them but Ole's formations, lineups and tactics weren't good at all in many of them to be fair and honest. He definitely had part of the blame even if it's not the most, he had and he made his own mistakes.

Was the point of having only 36% possession against City is normal same for you when Mourinho was in charge ?

You dont expect losses but you go in and expect that theres a group of 5 or so teams just outside the top 4, and away to them you'll have a really tough go and you'll likely lose 1 or 2, draw 1 or 2 and win 1 or 2 away to that group. Can pull up the stats in a bit and see the teams that finish 7-10th that year and see how they perform against us over the years, but they're tough games and it's just games that everyone will occasionally drop points in. City for eexample this season dropped points away to both Wolves and Leicester, but beat Everton and Watford. It happens. And I dont just mean Everton, but a group of teams and between them, you'll split a few games where you drop points.

Also my problem under Mourinho is that he had 2 years to shape the squad how he wanted, and he built towards a team that will just disrupt the best teams (and really failed that that anyway). Building a counter attacking side if that's what Ole wants isnt the same as that either. It's not like peak Sir Alex sides were based on possession play like Guardiola, but he was always still attacking. I think that's what Ole wants (whether he can do it is a whole other question that remains to be seen). Mourinho needed to go because of how poor we were after 2 full years of him, how the squad was a mess despite him having so long here, and because of his ideal vision for us isnt what United should ever be. There really isnt much of a clue what Ole will do in the summer, and of course it will be a long process with multiple windows needed to fully transition us, but progress is needed and should be visible pretty shortly in. You expect that if he identifies the types of players he needs and brings them in, that we'll improve, not get progressively worse like what happened under both Mourinho and Van Gaal with each successive signing.

Anyway back to the point, getting mid 30's% possession against a team manager by Pep or one like that isnt that much of a problem. Possession doesnt mean the team is better or more attacking, as we saw all too well with Van Gaal. There are multiple ways to play offensive football, multiple ways to play defensive football. Having less possession does not and will never mean that one team was better or worse or more attacking or defensive. It's just stylistic differences, with the general intent and mentality more separating attacking and defensive styles.

 

[DownRiver]

 

[dove]

Surely we must have some sort of crisis centre at Carrington by now, we seem to be in crisis pretty much every week for the past 5 years.

 

[el3mel]

You dont expect losses but you go in and expect that theres a group of 5 or so teams just outside the top 4, and away to them you'll have a really tough go and you'll likely lose 1 or 2, draw 1 or 2 and win 1 or 2 away to that group. Can pull up the stats in a bit and see the teams that finish 7-10th that year and see how they perform against us over the years, but they're tough games and it's just games that everyone will occasionally drop points in. City for eexample this season dropped points away to both Wolves and Leicester, but beat Everton and Watford. It happens. And I dont just mean Everton, but a group of teams and between them, you'll split a few games where you drop points.

Also my problem under Mourinho is that he had 2 years to shape the squad how he wanted, and he built towards a team that will just disrupt the best teams (and really failed that that anyway). Building a counter attacking side if that's what Ole wants isnt the same as that either. It's not like peak Sir Alex sides were based on possession play like Guardiola, but he was always still attacking. I think that's what Ole wants (whether he can do it is a whole other question that remains to be seen). Mourinho needed to go because of how poor we were after 2 full years of him, how the squad was a mess despite him having so long here, and because of his ideal vision for us isnt what United should ever be. There really isnt much of a clue what Ole will do in the summer, and of course it will be a long process with multiple windows needed to fully transition us, but progress is needed and should be visible pretty shortly in. You expect that if he identifies the types of players he needs and brings them in, that we'll improve, not get progressively worse like what happened under both Mourinho and Van Gaal with each successive signing.
Anyway back to the point, getting mid 30's% possession against a team manager by Pep or one like that isnt that much of a problem. Possession doesnt mean the team is better or more attacking, as we saw all too well with Van Gaal. There are multiple ways to play offensive football, multiple ways to play defensive football. Having less possession does not and will never mean that one team was better or worse or more attacking or defensive. It's just stylistic differences, with the general intent and mentality more separating attacking and defensive styles.

Umm, mate, can you please decrease the size of each paragraph to facilitate reading ? A huge sum of text is pretty hard to follow. Separate them into several small paragraphs.

The point is not losing 1 or 2 rouge games during the season you know. The point is we're losing everything everywhere the last 1 or 2 months. Losing some games here and there is acceptable, but losing 7 games out of your last 9 and thinking "nah that's fine, we played some good sides" is not acceptable. Just because we played some good sides doesn't mean instant losses. The problem is our god awful form, losing games after games in short period of time while being 6th and getting out of every competition, while not even being fun to watch and getting some humiliating results as well. Surely you can differentiate between losing a rouge game here and there and having a series of losses as terrible as our run currently ?

I don't see any overreacting and to be totally honest, as I mentioned in another post yesterday if Ole hadn't been hired by now, would most of us had persisted with the opinion of giving him the job after going through such run or would be discussing it's too risky and get another manager as it may just had been a purple patch ? Ask yourself that question. It's a pretty complicated situation and I don't blame the people doubting him.

As for the other part. I'm not asking Mourinho should have stayed or not really. The question is simple : Were you fine having 36% possession at OT against City because it's Pep and he controls possession when Mourinho was in charge ? Yes or no ?

I'm sorry but really, I haven't seen any indication Ole is an offensive manager for me. Yeah away from the players being crap and all that, looks very defensive and pragmatic for me. He had put some formations and lineups that would be accused as bus parking under any other manager and his intent in all big games is clearly set back and counter. Even the wins against Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea etc, we ended up with possession stats that didn't exceed 38% in any of these. All his big games has the same terrible possession stats and the wins were all dependent on counter attacks rather than trying to dominate the possession so don't see how it's not his intent to do so. Surely starting with 5 defenders and only 2 attackers show what you're planning for ?

5 months in his reign and I don't see any sign of an offensive style to be fair and honest, even though that's good enough to show the offensive football you want to play regularly.

I'm not totally against counter attacking style as I didn't have much problem with it under Mourinho either but that's not what most here kept asking for as far as I'm concerned.

 

[bosnian_red]

@el3mel back to my point about fixtures against upper mid table teams, looking at our last 3 title winning teams... (and this current team is so so far away from that level):
United in 2012/13 away to Everton, Liverpool (), West Brom, Swansea and West Ham (6th-10th):

• Lost 1-0 to Everton
• Drew 1-1 with Swansea
• Drew 2-2 with West Ham
• Drew 5-5 with West Brom
• Won 2-1 away to Liverpool

United in 2010/11 away to Everton, Fulham, Villa, Sunderland (7-10th)

• Drew 2-2 away to Fulham
• Drew 3-3 away to Everton
• Drew 0-0 away to Sunderland
• Drew 2-2 away to Villa

United in 2008/09 away to Everton, Villa, Fulham, Spurs, West Ham, City (5-10th, when it was just the top 4 and not 6)

• Drew 1-1 to Everton
• Drew 0-0 to Villa
• Drew 0-0 to Spurs
• Lost 2-0 to Fulham
• Won 1-0 away to City
• Won 1-0 away to West Ham

Bit of a trend here isn't it? Our last 3 title winning teams against the teams outside the main big teams had a record of 3 wins, 10 draws, 2 losses. Could go further back but I'm sure it'll remain. Going away to teams just outside the top 4 or top 6, going right to about 10th or so, the formula for winning titles is just not losing those games. If you lose one, you make up for it with a win in one other.

This season, against Wolves, Watord, Everton and Leicester, West Ham and Palace (7-12):

• 2-1 win away to Watford (Mourinho)
• 3-1 loss away to West Ham (Mourinho)
• 1-0 win away to Leicester
• 3-1 win away to Palace
• 2-1 loss away to Wolves
• 4-0 loss to away Everton

3 wins, 3 losses instead of the usual 1-4-1 or something of the sort under Sir Alex. And keep in mind this is just a squad the is a top 4 challenger at best. You really can't expect anything more than this level of inconsistency in games like this.

 

[el3mel]

@el3mel back to my point about fixtures against upper mid table teams, looking at our last 3 title winning teams... (and this current team is so so far away from that level):
United in 2012/13 away to Everton, Liverpool (), West Brom, Swansea and West Ham (6th-10th):

• Lost 1-0 to Everton
• Drew 1-1 with Swansea
• Drew 2-2 with West Ham
• Drew 5-5 with West Brom
• Won 2-1 away to Liverpool

United in 2010/11 away to Everton, Fulham, Villa, Sunderland (7-10th)

• Drew 2-2 away to Fulham
• Drew 3-3 away to Everton
• Drew 0-0 away to Sunderland
• Drew 2-2 away to Villa

United in 2008/09 away to Everton, Villa, Fulham, Spurs, West Ham, City (5-10th, when it was just the top 4 and not 6)

• Drew 1-1 to Everton
• Drew 0-0 to Villa
• Drew 0-0 to Spurs
• Lost 2-0 to Fulham
• Won 1-0 away to City
• Won 1-0 away to West Ham

Bit of a trend here isn't it? Our last 3 title winning teams against the teams outside the main big teams had a record of 3 wins, 10 draws, 2 losses. Could go further back but I'm sure it'll remain. Going away to teams just outside the top 4 or top 6, going right to about 10th or so, the formula for winning titles is just not losing those games. If you lose one, you make up for it with a win in one other.

This season, against Wolves, Watord, Everton and Leicester, West Ham and Palace (7-12):

• 2-1 win away to Watford (Mourinho)
• 3-1 loss away to West Ham (Mourinho)
• 1-0 win away to Leicester
• 3-1 win away to Palace
• 2-1 loss away to Wolves
• 4-0 loss to away Everton

3 wins, 3 losses instead of the usual 1-4-1 or something of the sort under Sir Alex. And keep in mind this is just a squad the is a top 4 challenger at best. You really can't expect anything more than this level of inconsistency in games like this.

You don't get it. I discussed that in the post I just wrote before seeing this. There's no problem losing rogue games here and there. It happens, especially if it's by a lucky goal against the run or just had an off day. The problem is we lost 7 games out of our last 9 so basically, we're losing everything, everywhere at the moment.

The current run is on bar with LVG 8 winless games run in his season in terms of our worst ever run of form in the post Fergie era, so it's not just having an off day game inbetween good results. It's about having a god awful form for about 2 months and we're struggling to stop it.

You don't understand how terrible we have been for the last 2 months.

 

[Dve]

A lot of the players are leaving after the season, or at least open to leave. At the same time as Ole was hired, the speculations started about players leaving, or not being part of the future plans because of the new style of playing. Real Madrid are in the same situation, a new manager and a lot unsurely around the squad. Next season will bring the answers.

 

[bosnian_red]

Umm, mate, can you please decrease the size of each paragraph to facilitate reading ? A huge sum of text is pretty hard to follow. Separate them into several small paragraphs.

The point is not losing 1 or 2 rouge games during the season you know. The point is we're losing everything everywhere the last 1 or 2 months. Losing some games here and there is acceptable, but losing 7 games out of your last 9 and thinking "nah that's fine, we played some good sides" is not acceptable. Just because we played some good sides doesn't mean instant losses. The problem is our god awful form, losing games after games in short period of time while being 6th and getting out of every competition, while not even being fun to watch and getting some humiliating results as well. Surely you can differentiate between losing a rouge game here and there and having a series of losses as terrible as our run currently ?

I don't see any overreacting and to be totally honest, as I mentioned in another post yesterday if Ole hadn't been hired by now, would most of us had persisted with the opinion of giving him the job after going through such run or would be discussing it's too risky and get another manager as it may just had been a purple patch ? Ask yourself that question. It's a pretty complicated situation and I don't blame the people doubting him.

As for the other part. I'm not asking Mourinho should have stayed or not really. The question is simple : Were you fine having 36% possession at OT against City because it's Pep and he controls possession when Mourinho was in charge ? Yes or no ?

I'm sorry but really, I haven't seen any indication Ole is an offensive manager for me. Yeah away from the players being crap and all that, looks very defensive and pragmatic for me. He had put some formations and lineups that would be accused as bus parking under any other manager and his intent in all big games is clearly set back and counter. Even the wins against Spurs, Arsenal, Chelsea etc, we ended up with possession stats that didn't exceed 38% in any of these. All his big games has the same terrible possession stats and the wins were all dependent on counter attacks rather than trying to dominate the possession so don't see how it's not his intent to do so. Surely starting with 5 defenders and only 2 attackers show what you're planning for ?

5 months in his reign and I don't see any sign of an offensive style to be fair and honest, even though that's good enough to show the offensive football you want to play regularly.

I'm not totally against counter attacking style as I didn't have much problem with it under Mourinho either but that's not what most here kept asking for as far as I'm concerned.

Yes, we're in a shite run of form but what I'm saying is if you look at the overall picture, none of it is all that bad. Like I said and how I split it up in the other post just now, you expect that you'll drop points away to upper mid table sides. It happens every single season and it's always happened to our title winning sides. Losing 4-0 is never acceptable and the shit performances aren't acceptable, but the "shit performances" where we lost are really just Wolves in the cup and Everton. We had a few poor performances where we won and some good performances where we lost, but those 2 are the standouts and those can never be acceptable.

As for your question, I'll answer that like this:
If on December 17th when Mourinho got sacked, United 10 points off the pace with only 26 points after 17 games and a goal differential of 0 and a horrendous season before hand, you were told that a manager would come in and pick up 38 points from the next 18 games and finish the season likely on 45-47 points from 21 games. That we would possibly get top 4, all the while getting past PSG but losing to Barcelona in the CL, and in the FA Cup winning away to both Arsenal and Chelsea but then losing to Wolves, what would you say? You would say that's a pretty fecking good achievement and almost like working a miracle from where we were.

So yeah. I take the stance of I'm not letting one awful run of fixtures (and results tbf) cloud what was a brilliant run of fixtures before that and mask that his overall job has been very positive. Since Ole took over, only City and Liverpool have more points. Since Ole took over, only City and Liverpool have more goals. Since Ole took over, we have the 4th best defensive record. If you don't want to look strictly at results but bang on about performance, look at the xG which is literally used to track that.
Again, since Ole took over, only City and Liverpool have more "expected points". Since Ole took over, only City and Liverpool have more "expected goals". Since Ole took over, we are 4th in "expected goals conceded". Our performance level in terms of being the better side, creating chances, and keeping the opposition out, both in actual results and the underlying statistics have been only bettered by City and Liverpool since Ole took charge of United. So yeah, while we've lost form, we've still overall performed at a level that is better than any other team in the league bar the top 2 who are a level above.

 

[el3mel]

Yes, we're in a shite run of form but what I'm saying is if you look at the overall picture, none of it is all that bad. Like I said and how I split it up in the other post just now, you expect that you'll drop points away to upper mid table sides. It happens every single season and it's always happened to our title winning sides. Losing 4-0 is never acceptable and the shit performances aren't acceptable, but the "shit performances" where we lost are really just Wolves in the cup and Everton. We had a few poor performances where we won and some good performances where we lost, but those 2 are the standouts and those can never be acceptable.

As for your question, I'll answer that like this:
If on December 17th when Mourinho got sacked, United 10 points off the pace with only 26 points after 17 games and a goal differential of 0 and a horrendous season before hand, you were told that a manager would come in and pick up 38 points from the next 18 games and finish the season likely on 45-47 points from 21 games. That we would possibly get top 4, all the while getting past PSG but losing to Barcelona in the CL, and in the FA Cup winning away to both Arsenal and Chelsea but then losing to Wolves, what would you say? You would say that's a pretty fecking good achievement and almost like working a miracle from where we were.

So yeah. I take the stance of I'm not letting one awful run of fixtures (and results tbf) cloud what was a brilliant run of fixtures before that and mask that his overall job has been very positive. Since Ole took over, only City and Liverpool have more points. Since Ole took over, only City and Liverpool have more goals. Since Ole took over, we have the 4th best defensive record. If you don't want to look strictly at results but bang on about performance, look at the xG which is literally used to track that.
Again, since Ole took over, only City and Liverpool have more "expected points". Since Ole took over, only City and Liverpool have more "expected goals". Since Ole took over, we are 4th in "expected goals conceded". Our performance level in terms of being the better side, creating chances, and keeping the opposition out, both in actual results and the underlying statistics have been only bettered by City and Liverpool since Ole took charge of United. So yeah, while we've lost form, we've still overall performed at a level that is better than any other team in the league bar the top 2 who are a level above.

Again expecting to drop points in some games is normal. Losing 7 games out of 9 is the abnormal thing and indicates these games aren't just day off but something very wrong is happening at the moment.

The point about Mourinho isn't an answer to my question. This is shifting the post to some other direction, mate. No one is arguing he shouldn't have been sacked or we were awful under him this season. We're talking about not being fine with us going full bus parking in big games under him while being fine with 36% possession at home to City. If you have the same point here and there, great.

Finally, definitely the full right to preserve your opinion on Ole. I, too, on the camp that it's 90% the players 10% the manager only. Only thing I'm saying is those who are starting to doubt him have their point and you can't say they're just knee jerking imo.

 

[bosnian_red]

You don't get it. I discussed that in the post I just wrote before seeing this. There's no problem losing rogue games here and there. It happens, especially if it's by a lucky goal against the run or just had an off day. The problem is we lost 7 games out of our last 9 so basically, we're losing everything, everywhere at the moment.

The current run is on bar with LVG 8 winless games run in his season in terms of our worst ever run of form in the post Fergie era, so it's not just having an off day game inbetween good results. It's about having a god awful form for about 2 months and we're struggling to stop it.

You don't understand how terrible we have been for the last 2 months.

It's just been 1 month, don't exaggerate. Our situation 1 month ago was that we had been very unlucky to lose against Arsenal despite dominating the possession and chances away to them in the game, but just failing to take our chances, and then 1 bad performance in the FA Cup against Wolves (happens). April has been shite. No disputing that. But again, you keep mentioning like we're losing to absolutely everyone, that straight up isn't true. Acknowledge that the fixture list has been incredibly difficult, because it has and that's had a massive role to play. In the past month of shite fixtures, we've:

• lost away to Wolves in the league (where we really should have won but didn't take our chances)
• lost home to Barca (no surprise there, they are more than a few levels above us)
• lost away to Barca (even more so, away at the Camp Nou we were always going to get hammered)
• lost away to Everton (awful performance, no getting away from that, but again, like my previous point, it's one of those games that we drop points in fairly regularly)
• lost home to City (like Barca, no surprise at all as they are a vastly superior side).

Yes, there are question marks over Ole and yes, it's a bad run of form. But if you can't look at the run of fixtures and see that 3 of them were against vastly superior sides that will beat us probably 75% of the time, and the other 2 games were against sides who have pretty much beat or picked up points at home to every other big side in the league, then I dunno what to tell you and it's best to leave it at that because we won't get anywhere.

We have 3 games left of the season - Home to Chelsea, away to Huddersfield, home to Brighton. Win all 3 and there's a decent chance with finish top 4 and Ole after 21 games will have picked up 47 points (a pace of 85 points over a season). You have beyond unreasonable expectations if you look at Ole's half season as a whole and deem that as underperforming or questionable (provided we win our last 3 like I think we should)

 

[el3mel]

It's just been 1 month, don't exaggerate. Our situation 1 month ago was that we had been very unlucky to lose against Arsenal despite dominating the possession and chances away to them in the game, but just failing to take our chances, and then 1 bad performance in the FA Cup against Wolves (happens). April has been shite. No disputing that. But again, you keep mentioning like we're losing to absolutely everyone, that straight up isn't true. Acknowledge that the fixture list has been incredibly difficult, because it has and that's had a massive role to play. In the past month of shite fixtures, we've:

• lost away to Wolves in the league (where we really should have won but didn't take our chances)
• lost home to Barca (no surprise there, they are more than a few levels above us)
• lost away to Barca (even more so, away at the Camp Nou we were always going to get hammered)
• lost away to Everton (awful performance, no getting away from that, but again, like my previous point, it's one of those games that we drop points in fairly regularly)
• lost home to City (like Barca, no surprise at all as they are a vastly superior side).

Yes, there are question marks over Ole and yes, it's a bad run of form. But if you can't look at the run of fixtures and see that 3 of them were against vastly superior sides that will beat us probably 75% of the time, and the other 2 games were against sides who have pretty much beat or picked up points at home to every other big side in the league, then I dunno what to tell you and it's best to leave it at that because we won't get anywhere.

We have 3 games left of the season - Home to Chelsea, away to Huddersfield, home to Brighton. Win all 3 and there's a decent chance with finish top 4 and Ole after 21 games will have picked up 47 points (a pace of 85 points over a season). You have beyond unreasonable expectations if you look at Ole's half season as a whole and deem that as underperforming or questionable.

Well, definitely losing 7 of 9 is called losing to everyone eh ? Even our 2 wins against WHU and Watford we played absolutely woeful.

Barca and City aren't gods or invincible. They lost and drew against worse teams this seasons and we shouldn't be treating these games as instant losses. The problem is we didn't even manage to get them out of their second gear and they both strolled against us with ease. I bet they both had more difficult games this season than their games against us.

He did fine overall but the current run is simply awful and people have the right to start putting some questions on it. Really don't see why they shouldn't. The performance on the pitch is also kinda worrying for many. I'm not saying you or I should agree with them but that's not knee jerking really. Would have happened to any other manager.

 

[bosnian_red]

Again expecting to drop points in some games is normal. Losing 7 games out of 9 is the abnormal thing and indicates these games aren't just day off but something very wrong is happening at the moment.

The point about Mourinho isn't an answer to my question. This is shifting the post to some other direction, mate. No one is arguing he shouldn't have been sacked or we were awful under him this season. We're talking about not being fine with us going full bus parking in big games under him while being fine with 36% possession at home to City. If you have the same point here and there, great.

Finally, definitely the full right to preserve your opinion on Ole. I, too, on the camp that it's 90% the players 10% the manager only. Only thing I'm saying is those who are starting to doubt him have their point and you can't say they're just knee jerking imo.

Each to their own I guess. Losing 7 in 9 is shite and I'm not disputing that, but in terms of "something very wrong happening"... I think it's fairly explainable. I think our squad isn't very good, incredibly unbalanced and Ole's situation with the current squad has gotten worse compared to when he took over, because since he took over, he's found that many players like Herrera are certainly leaving in the summer (IMO the reason why we haven't seen him in a month or 2, and tbh if that's the case than that can be argued if that's the right way to deal with it but also I don't really hate the view of being ruthless to those who don't want to be here). De Gea has lost form for the first time in 5 years or so and has been conceding the stupidest goals. Again, you can point to Ole for not playing Romero, but that's a pretty fecking big call to make, and having faith in De Gea might be him trying to also keep him onside in case De Gea hasn't committed to leaving yet.

We've had a horrid fixture list, 3 of those 7 games have come against teams you expect to lose against most of the time given the skill gap between us and them, 2 of the 7 were actually decent performances largely decided by De Gea letting in ridiculously soft goals and not finishing piss easy chances (Lukaku vs Arsenal, lingard vs Wolves come to mind...), and 2 of them were just very shite performances that aren't acceptable ever (Wolves in the cup, Everton in the league). I guess what I'm trying to say is that we aren't as bad as 7 losses in the last 9 in the league shows just like we weren't quite as good as whatever positive record we had going on before this bad run. That's why it is very important to look at it as a whole, and why it's important to wait until the last 3 games of the season at least to at least judge how his half season has gone.

 

[el3mel]

Each to their own I guess. Losing 7 in 9 is shite and I'm not disputing that, but in terms of "something very wrong happening"... I think it's fairly explainable. I think our squad isn't very good, incredibly unbalanced and Ole's situation with the current squad has gotten worse compared to when he took over, because since he took over, he's found that many players like Herrera are certainly leaving in the summer (IMO the reason why we haven't seen him in a month or 2, and tbh if that's the case than that can be argued if that's the right way to deal with it but also I don't really hate the view of being ruthless to those who don't want to be here). De Gea has lost form for the first time in 5 years or so and has been conceding the stupidest goals. Again, you can point to Ole for not playing Romero, but that's a pretty fecking big call to make, and having faith in De Gea might be him trying to also keep him onside in case De Gea hasn't committed to leaving yet. We've had a horrid fixture list, 3 of those 7 games have come against teams you expect to lose against most of the time given the skill gap between us and them, 2 of the 7 were actually decent performances largely decided by De Gea letting in ridiculously soft goals and not finishing piss easy chances (Lukaku vs Arsenal, lingard vs Wolves come to mind...), and 2 of them were just very shite performances that aren't acceptable ever (Wolves in the cup, Everton in the league). I guess what I'm trying to say is that we aren't as bad as 7 losses in the last 9 in the league shows just like we weren't quite as good as whatever positive record we had going on before this bad run. That's why it is very important to look at it as a whole, and why it's important to wait until the last 3 games of the season at least to at least judge how his half season has gone.

Back to writing a big sum of text. I thought we agreed on splitting to small paragraphs eh ?

I don't disagree about the players being mostly crap and most of the problem lie in them so. I slaughtered them far more than Ole or Mourinho or any other manager. Though I can understand those who are starting to doubt Ole. He had his share of blame and things to answer for, but yeah the players are the major problem.

 

[bosnian_red]

Well, definitely losing 7 of 9 is called losing to everyone eh ? Even our 2 wins against WHU and Watford we played absolutely woeful.

Barca and City aren't gods or invincible. They lost and drew against worse teams this seasons and we shouldn't be treating these games as instant losses. The problem is we didn't even manage to get them out of their second gear and they both strolled against us with ease. I bet they both had more difficult games this season than their games against us.

He did fine overall but the current run is simply awful and people have the right to start putting some questions on it. Really don't see why they shouldn't. The performance on the pitch is also kinda worrying for many. I'm not saying you or I should agree with them but that's not knee jerking really. Would have happened to any other manager.

That's fine to start asking questions, but what many on here have been doing is far beyond just "asking questions", it's been a complete meltdown.
And Barca and City are pretty much the 2 best teams in the world right now. They aren't invincible, but City finished on 100 points last season and are looking like they'll get 98 this season. They're just better. Far better. Barcelona as well have arguably the greatest footballer of all time still there, still killing it every game. Again, like with City, they are just a far better side and we can only hope that we bridge that gap over the next few years because that's not going to happen in one season and almost definitely not in 2. Call it low expectations, but that's just me being realistic IMO, I think we're that far behind them and the job to rebuild to the level that they are at is a very, very long one.

Of course they both had more difficult games this season than their games against us. Both Liverpool and Spurs are better sides than us in the Premier League alone, for one. Barcelona have played a few better sides than United as well. You also can't compare those teams getting complacent or not being on it against mid table or lower table teams to a CL quarter final where Barcelona are as focused for that competition as they've been in about 5 years, or City in the run in for the league where both them and Liverpool haven't dropped points in ages.

 

[el3mel]

That's fine to start asking questions, but what many on here have been doing is far beyond just "asking questions", it's been a complete meltdown.
And Barca and City are pretty much the 2 best teams in the world right now. They aren't invincible, but City finished on 100 points last season and are looking like they'll get 98 this season. They're just better. Far better. Barcelona as well have arguably the greatest footballer of all time still there, still killing it every game. Again, like with City, they are just a far better side and we can only hope that we bridge that gap over the next few years because that's not going to happen in one season and almost definitely not in 2. Call it low expectations, but that's just me being realistic IMO, I think we're that far behind them and the job to rebuild to the level that they are at is a very, very long one.

Of course they both had more difficult games this season than their games against us. Both Liverpool and Spurs are better sides than us in the Premier League alone, for one. Barcelona have played a few better sides than United as well. You also can't compare those teams getting complacent or not being on it against mid table or lower table teams to a CL quarter final where Barcelona are as focused for that competition as they've been in about 5 years, or City in the run in for the league where both them and Liverpool haven't dropped points in ages.

Some didn't want him from the start and are starting to believe their opinion was right and he shouldn't have been appointed. That's different from turning on him.

 

[bosnian_red]

Back to writing a big sum of text. I thought we agreed on splitting to small paragraphs eh ?

I don't disagree about the players being mostly crap and most of the problem lie in them so. I slaughtered them far more than Ole or Mourinho or any other manager. Though I can understand those who are starting to doubt Ole. He had his share of blame and things to answer for, but yeah the players are the major problem.

Haha fecker. On my phone so it's hard sometimes. Anyway, I think we mostly agree I just think it's too soon to pass judgement on him like some are already starting to do, which is ridiculous in my eyes because of how big of a mess the squad is. I think he's trying to change the mentality of the group and he's trying to be ruthless with them. Plenty will surely leave this summer and hopefully Woodward pulls his finger out and backs Ole (tbf he has backed the previous managers financially). After half a season it looks like Ole has already made his mind up on players like Matic, Lukaku, Sanchez, Mata, Herrera, Bailly etc (who many of the fans would agree on) who are all overpaid, over priced, overrated or just of no use for him moving forward because either they don't want to be here, or don't have the right attitude to be here or aren't good enough. Unfortunately I'm sure there's others like Young who I'm sure has a good attitude despite being shit, but will just stick around again because we are just that short at fullback so we have to make do with him as depth at least.

 

[The Nani]

I don't think Woodward or the Glazers will want a huge summer. I mean wasn't that the whole point of getting rid of Mourinho - that we have a squad stacked with world class talent that he personally didn't like and was squandering, and he was going to ship most of them out if he made it to the summer. Plus results were bad. So he had to go, to save the players and improve the results.

Results are currently worse under Solskjaer than at any point during Mourinho's reign, and we're heading for a summer where Ole (after saying how brilliant the players all are when he first arrived) now wants a clear out, too.

The Glazers will be wondering what the point of it all was, and I'm not sure they will suddenly be keen to loosen the purse strings. One imagines that they might say the same thing to Ole as they said to Mourinho - Martial, Pogba, Shaw and the rest of them are world class players - if you cannot get a tune out of them, make way for someone who will.

If this is the case we’re well and truly fecked no matter who the manager is.

Thankfully I really don’t think it is. Looking at our performances over the past few years how could it be.