Nuri Sahin

Baxter said:
Different type of midfielders. Sahin is every bit a deep lying midfielder, whereas Modric is a bit more attacking in my opinion.
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This term fascinates me - "deep lying playmaker" - often means he can pass a bit, tackle a bit, but is too slow to get up and down the pitch so has to stay knocking about the centre circle.

I miss the days when a central midfield player could do pretty much everything. Now we seem to have to put a a player in a pigeon hole to cover up for the weaknesses in his game.
 
Ekeke said:
He's better defensively than Modric and also more productive. He's just been injured and Madrid seemed to give up on him. Its a strange one but I dont think Madrid are known for their patience. Why give a player a 2nd chance in his second season when you can buy someone else for £30 million?
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Completely disagree. Modric's defensive work is highly underrated, his interceptions were off the chart last season. He is good defensively as he reads the game very well a la Carrick or Busquets. Not sure why you think Sahin is more productive, are you just basing this on some hidden stats somewhere? Modric is at the heart of everything good in Spurs or Croatia's play, he is an orchestrator, he provides the focal point of every move or play. He's also more dynamic than Sahin, he works harder. Perhaps it is simply that Jose rates him more?
 
Comsmit said:
Completely disagree. Modric's defensive work is highly underrated, his interceptions were off the chart last season. He is good defensively as he reads the game very well a la Carrick or Busquets. Not sure why you think Sahin is more productive, are you just basing this on some hidden stats somewhere? Modric is at the heart of everything good in Spurs or Croatia's play, he is an orchestrator, he provides the focal point of every move or play. He's also more dynamic than Sahin, he works harder. Perhaps it is simply that Jose rates him more?
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I agree with that.

He's the base of what Spurs do in keeping the ball moving. May not be knocking "hollywood passes" left right and centre but never gives the ball away and is involved in pretty much everything good they do. To my mind a top player - hence with Jose wants him.
 
RedRover said:
Some people overrate players ridiculously on here. A good season in Dortmund, followed by a handful of appearences in Madrid?

Seems Jose Mourinho disagrees and would rather have Modric - a consistent PL performer for a sustained period, even if it does cost £30 plus million.

This kid may very well prove to be a talent, but again, hardly seems like clubs are banging down Real's door to sign him.
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According to Atze-Peng's scouting report a couple of pages back, he needs confidence, playing time and the right setup around him. Madrid can't give him that - they'd have to drop Khedira or Alonso to do it and he hasn't shown enough when he has played to make them do that.

Right now, he's a player with great potential, and young enough to do better than Modric one day. But he'll be a gamble, so you'd want to get him at a fair price.

Incidentally, I don't go along with the VdV comparisons. VdV did get playing time at Madrid, enough to show where his limits were. That sent him to Spurs.

Sahin on the other hand hasn't shown us his limits yet, which I'll view optimistically if he comes to us.
 
jojojo said:
According to Atze-Peng's scouting report a couple of pages back, he needs confidence, playing time and the right setup around him. Madrid can't give him that - they'd have to drop Khedira or Alonso to do it and he hasn't shown enough when he has played to make them do that.

Right now, he's a player with great potential, and young enough to do better than Modric one day. But he'll be a gamble, so you'd want to get him at a fair price.

Incidentally, I don't go along with the VdV comparisons. VdV did get playing time at Madrid, enough to show where his limits were. That sent him to Spurs.

Sahin on the other hand hasn't shown us his limits yet, which I'll view optimistically if he comes to us.
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You could say that about a whole host of players - Modric is doing it now, and if he goes to real madrid I've no doubt he'll be a great success.

This kid, on the other hand appears to be a "project player" - not sdomeone who can neccessarily step into United's midfield and do a job. If that's the case why not persist with Anderson? For me we need an established player who can slot straight in.

I for one consider the fact that if Real Madrid bomb him out this year for a meagre fee, that tells you a lot, because if this great promise is so evident then why would they let him go? Much more sensible to send him out on loan.

I guess we'll see - but if he's allowed to go on the cheap my guess is either 1) Jose doesn't rate him or 2) his injuries are an issue.
 
jojojo said:
According to Atze-Peng's scouting report a couple of pages back, he needs confidence, playing time and the right setup around him. Madrid can't give him that - they'd have to drop Khedira or Alonso to do it and he hasn't shown enough when he has played to make them do that.

Right now, he's a player with great potential, and young enough to do better than Modric one day. But he'll be a gamble, so you'd want to get him at a fair price.

Incidentally, I don't go along with the VdV comparisons. VdV did get playing time at Madrid, enough to show where his limits were. That sent him to Spurs.

Sahin on the other hand hasn't shown us his limits yet, which I'll view optimistically if he comes to us.
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That's an interesting point. He's a terrific young player but like you say it's all in the potential.

I don't see any of these issues with Luka Modric, he can slot straight in and run a midfield. He isn't a "gamble."
 
RedRover said:
You could say that about a whole host of players - Modric is doing it now, and if he goes to real madrid I've no doubt he'll be a great success.

This kid, on the other hand appears to be a "project player" - not sdomeone who can neccessarily step into United's midfield and do a job. If that's the case why not persist with Anderson? For me we need an established player who can slot straight in.

I for one consider the fact that if Real Madrid bomb him out this year for a meagre fee, that tells you a lot, because if this great promise is so evident then why would they let him go? Much more sensible to send him out on loan.

I guess we'll see - but if he's allowed to go on the cheap my guess is either 1) Jose doesn't rate him or 2) his injuries are an issue.
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Exactly right, especially the reference to Anderson. United's midfield needs someone who can run it efficiently and effectively...long term. Modric would be absolutely ideal but it just isn't going to happen. Hence Ferguson has not addressed the issue and the problem continues. He obviously still believes in Anderson becoming the solution.
 
RedRover said:
This term fascinates me - "deep lying playmaker" - often means he can pass a bit, tackle a bit, but is too slow to get up and down the pitch so has to stay knocking about the centre circle.

I miss the days when a central midfield player could do pretty much everything. Now we seem to have to put a a player in a pigeon hole to cover up for the weaknesses in his game.
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But they couldn't do everything. You're just getting stuck with the "good old days" mentality. If anything, modern midfielders are better than the good old days.
 
Comsmit said:
Completely disagree. Modric's defensive work is highly underrated, his interceptions were off the chart last season. He is good defensively as he reads the game very well a la Carrick or Busquets. Not sure why you think Sahin is more productive, are you just basing this on some hidden stats somewhere? Modric is at the heart of everything good in Spurs or Croatia's play, he is an orchestrator, he provides the focal point of every move or play. He's also more dynamic than Sahin, he works harder. Perhaps it is simply that Jose rates him more?
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They werent. 2.3 interceptions per match is nice but the average midfielder with a good defensive contribution will have as much, more or make up for it in tackles.

For example, looking at interceptions alone Modric's 2.3 is joint 9th best in the league. Fine but not "off the charts" by any means, Stephen Ireland made more interestingly enough and yet he wasnt rated defensively enough to play CM at City.

Modric's 1.6 tackles per game is low for a CM. Comparing to our midfield Carrick made 3, Scholes and Anderson both 2.3 and only Cleverley made less at 1.1. Yes thats right, Scholes made more tackles. Not fouls, tackles.

You're basing your opinion on knowing about 1 player instead of knowing about both which is ridiculous.

Sahin is more productive.
 
Comsmit said:
Exactly right, especially the reference to Anderson. United's midfield needs someone who can run it efficiently and effectively...long term. Modric would be absolutely ideal but it just isn't going to happen. Hence Ferguson has not addressed the issue and the problem continues. He obviously still believes in Anderson becoming the solution.
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Not sure how much he still believes in him :lol:

Fact is, we still don't know Anderson's best position after 4 years at the club. Some of it has been down to injuries and some of it has been down to his own fitness. To me, he doesn't seem to have the brains to play in the centre - he doesn't seem to know when to keep it simple and when to go for the killer pass. Now I know we've been somewhat spoilt by having Scholes there for a while but it's still important to be able to keep the ball. There are too many times where he still plays like an attacking midfielder - attempting that final pass - when we should be holding on to the ball and controlling the game.

He still has plenty of qualities - one touch passing, strength, running with the ball etc. But to me he's never put in a performance where he's truly imposed himself on the game and made the CM position look like his own. Another problem I have is when we don't have the ball, he's almost pointless. I've lost count of the amount of times opposition players run past him like he's not there and then our back four is exposed. It's cost us a few times. This was even when he was seen to be playing well early last season next to Cleverley. While we looked good going forward, the amount of chances we would concede was ridiculous.
 
RedRover said:
This term fascinates me - "deep lying playmaker" - often means he can pass a bit, tackle a bit, but is too slow to get up and down the pitch so has to stay knocking about the centre circle.

I miss the days when a central midfield player could do pretty much everything. Now we seem to have to put a a player in a pigeon hole to cover up for the weaknesses in his game.
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What nonsense is this? A deep lying midfielder is someone who will sit deep, of course, and control the game from there. Think of someone like Xavi, for example. They don't get up the pitch because they don't need to; teams will have other midfielders to do that. They don't need to constantly run around because instead of running to get the ball, they're already in position to make a tackle and take it, or they're in a position to make an interception.

Would you say that Xavi for example plays where he does only to cover the weaknesses in his game? I certainly wouldn't. I'd say he plays there because he's brilliant at controlling games while sitting deep.

By miss the days when players used to be able to do everything, what you mean is a player like Scott Parker who runs around a lot but isn't actually all that good on the ball; certainly not in comparison to other top midfielders. Classic British mentality which is depressing to see even now when it's widely recognised that technique is more important in the game.
 
He'd pick up and time Hernandez' runs one after another - I hope we really are considering him. He's a confident player, but he can also step it up in big games. Go watch any of his games against Bayern if you are not convinced.
 
Cheesy said:
What nonsense is this? A deep lying midfielder is someone who will sit deep, of course, and control the game from there. Think of someone like Xavi, for example. They don't get up the pitch because they don't need to; teams will have other midfielders to do that. They don't need to constantly run around because instead of running to get the ball, they're already in position to make a tackle and take it, or they're in a position to make an interception.

Would you say that Xavi for example plays where he does only to cover the weaknesses in his game? I certainly wouldn't. I'd say he plays there because he's brilliant at controlling games while sitting deep.

By miss the days when players used to be able to do everything, what you mean is a player like Scott Parker who runs around a lot but isn't actually all that good on the ball; certainly not in comparison to other top midfielders. Classic British mentality which is depressing to see even now when it's widely recognised that technique is more important in the game.
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You should watch Xavi for a start - he might pick the ball up deep, but he doesn't stay deep, does a lot of good work in and around the box. What he doesn't do is stay deep and knock long passes about - the key to his skill is his movement - he's not quick but he pops up all over the place. I've never seen a game where he remains "sitting deep" - he may not be galloping forward but that's not the same. One thing he isn't is static, or predictable.

And don't patronise me either - Keane, Vieira, Petit, Robson, Ince were all players who could play central midfield and could tackle and pass - my point was that ever since we had Claude Makelele we now seem to think that a midfield player has to be either a "holding player" or "attacking player" - I don't see why a player can't be both - especially if a club has (like United) a penchent for playing 4-4-2.
 
Ekeke said:
They werent. 2.3 interceptions per match is nice but the average midfielder with a good defensive contribution will have as much, more or make up for it in tackles.

For example, looking at interceptions alone Modric's 2.3 is joint 9th best in the league. Fine but not "off the charts" by any means, Stephen Ireland made more interestingly enough and yet he wasnt rated defensively enough to play CM at City.

Modric's 1.6 tackles per game is low for a CM. Comparing to our midfield Carrick made 3, Scholes and Anderson both 2.3 and only Cleverley made less at 1.1. Yes thats right, Scholes made more tackles. Not fouls, tackles.

You're basing your opinion on knowing about 1 player instead of knowing about both which is ridiculous.

Sahin is more productive.
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You are overly pedantic. I was simply "coining a phrase" when I mention "off the charts." The simple fact is 2.3 interceptions per match is impressive and matches up to the best in the league. He doesn't need to tackle he has a grunt next to him who pisses about with that dying art. I think I'm justified in stating that he is very competent in the defensive side of his game. Not sure why you feel the need to ram home Scholes tackling average it doesn't enhance your argument in the slightest.

Its very strange that you should make sweeping generalisations about my football intake. Do you really believe I have not seen Sahin play football? Granted I've not seen him as much as Modric but I've seen enough over the last few years to formulate an opinion.

You obviously see and believe what you want to in order to enhance your critique of anothers opinion.
 
Comsmit said:
You are overly pedantic. I was simply "coining a phrase" when I mention "off the charts." The simple fact is 2.3 interceptions per match is impressive and matches up to the best in the league.
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The hell are you talking about? I just told you with fact that his interceptions were not up there with the best in the league for a CM. Joint 9th isnt up with the best.


He doesn't need to tackle he has a grunt next to him who pisses about with that dying art. I think I'm justified in stating that he is very competent in the defensive side of his game. Not sure why you feel the need to ram home Scholes tackling average it doesn't enhance your argument in the slightest.
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So now he goes from being better than Sahin defensively to not needing to tackle. Righto.

Its very strange that you should make sweeping generalisations about my football intake. Do you really believe I have not seen Sahin play football? Granted I've not seen him as much as Modric but I've seen enough over the last few years to formulate an opinion.
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Yes. You may have seen him at Madrid last season, I didnt but from all accounts he was rubbish. But we saw the limits of his ability at Dortmund, not in 2 starts for Madrid after injury. And at Dortmund he showed himself to be a lot more solid defensively than Modric.

You obviously see and believe what you want to in order to enhance your critique of anothers opinion.
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Yes I'm obviously misreading factual statistics because I dont want Modric to be a good tackler or as good as 9 other premier league midfielders at intercepting.

A normal person would look these things up and find Modric's interceptions were "off the chart" and see next to his name "Doesnt need to tackle. Doesnt take away from his defensive contribution"
 
Well that's subjective, there's no statistics that measure the quality of a poster, unless you had some sort of 'retarded post per day counter', which would be hard to keep track off.
 
RedRover said:
You should watch Xavi for a start - he might pick the ball up deep, but he doesn't stay deep, does a lot of good work in and around the box. What he doesn't do is stay deep and knock long passes about - the key to his skill is his movement - he's not quick but he pops up all over the place. I've never seen a game where he remains "sitting deep" - he may not be galloping forward but that's not the same. One thing he isn't is static, or predictable.

And don't patronise me either - Keane, Vieira, Petit, Robson, Ince were all players who could play central midfield and could tackle and pass - my point was that ever since we had Claude Makelele we now seem to think that a midfield player has to be either a "holding player" or "attacking player" - I don't see why a player can't be both - especially if a club has (like United) a penchent for playing 4-4-2.
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Yes, he does get forward a lot, I've got no doubt about that, but he's still a deep lying midfielder. You seem to have this vision that a deep lying midfielder is one that doesn't go forward at all. That's not the case. Sure, he's not as advanced as someone like Iniesta or Fabregas may be at times, but being a deep lying player doesn't mean he can't go forward at all.

I know there are players who specialise in both aspects of the game. You've mentioned some obviously, while Yaya Toure is probably the best example in the modern game of it in a way. Just because of that though doesn't mean that all players who go forward and defend are automatically better than more restricted ones who generally stay in one position. Your definition of one is certainly way off though.
 
Cheesy said:
Yes, he does get forward a lot, I've got no doubt about that, but he's still a deep lying midfielder. You seem to have this vision that a deep lying midfielder is one that doesn't go forward at all. That's not the case. Sure, he's not as advanced as someone like Iniesta or Fabregas may be at times, but being a deep lying player doesn't mean he can't go forward at all.

I know there are players who specialise in both aspects of the game. You've mentioned some obviously, while Yaya Toure is probably the best example in the modern game of it in a way. Just because of that though doesn't mean that all players who go forward and defend are automatically better than more restricted ones who generally stay in one position. Your definition of one is certainly way off though.
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I don't agree - he's rarely the deepest lying player and most of his passes are short, to a team mate a few yards away - how that equates to being a "deep lying player" I don't know, because he's very often in the final third.

I see him as a similar kind of player as Scholes, pretty dynamic, perhaps a little less so, but I wouldn't call him a deep lying playmaker.

Anyway, I'm not even sure what a "deep lying playmaker" is - perhaps a term from Football Manager that people use to label players?

I didn't say that was the case - my point, and perhaps it was "nostalgic", was that there were more players capable of that around previously - now players like John Obi Mikel (as an example) make a living from putting their foot in but getting a nose bleed in the opposition half.
 
Ekeke said:
The hell are you talking about? I just told you with fact that his interceptions were not up there with the best in the league for a CM. Joint 9th isnt up with the best.
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Top ten midfielders in the Premier League I would say that is up with the best. I should mention that around 3-4 of those ahead of Modric are defensive midfielders who either sit in front of the back four hoovering up loose balls, or charge around like a nutcase with the sole aim of winning the ball.

Ekeke said:
So now he goes from being better than Sahin defensively to not needing to tackle. Righto.
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Modric is a playmaker, so to truly thrive he requires a hard-working defensively sound player beside him such as Sandro. So in essence Modric does not need to run about diving in or hunting down the ball...just dispossess someone who is careless in possession.

Look at him....he's tiny, he isn't built for 50-50's he uses his skill at reading the game so of course interceptions and maintaining possession are going to be his main defensive attributes. If you want to continue a statistical analysis Modric's interceptions were nearly double Sahin's 1.3 average last season. His tackling was also better. Granted Sahin played very few games but it's an average nonetheless.

Ekeke said:
Yes. You may have seen him at Madrid last season, I didnt but from all accounts he was rubbish. But we saw the limits of his ability at Dortmund, not in 2 starts for Madrid after injury. And at Dortmund he showed himself to be a lot more solid defensively than Modric.
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You have misinterpreted me. I'm not really debating whether Modric is better defensively than Sahin, merely that he's not worse. I actually suggested Modric's defensive game is very underrated. What I was querying is your assumption that Sahin is more productive than Modric....and I don't believe he is. Until you give me some sound reasoning I will continue to harbour this opinion.

Ekeke said:
Yes I'm obviously misreading factual statistics because I dont want Modric to be a good tackler or as good as 9 other premier league midfielders at intercepting.

A normal person would look these things up and find Modric's interceptions were "off the chart" and see next to his name "Doesnt need to tackle. Doesnt take away from his defensive contribution"
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I wasn't referring to your sourced factual stats. I was referring to this lovely little assumption

Ekeke said:
You're basing your opinion on knowing about 1 player instead of knowing about both which is ridiculous.
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You need to lay off a bit with your apparent superiority complex. Or just read posts correctly. Either or both would be nice.
 
Ekeke said:
Is the 9th best poster on redcafe really one of the best? Its probably devilish or something
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Depended how you define one of the best. Modric's interception stats says that he has the 9th best average which means that he is pretty good at it (9th in about hundred players in that positions if not with the best is near it).

And the 9th best poster in the Caf is surely one of the best, I mean there are more than 40K posters here (or something like that).
 
It's become quite fashionable to go to whoscored.com and search statistics such as "interceptions" to judge a player's quality (in certain aspects of their game). So here's something you should consider while doing that.

rayo2.jpg


http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/01/13/rayo-vallecano-interceptions/
 
Homeomorphic said:
It's become quite fashionable to go to whoscored.com and search statistics such as "interceptions" to judge a player's quality (in certain aspects of their game). So here's something you should consider while doing that.
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Yeh it's interesting to note that La Liga has a more possession based attitude to football, and this is throughout the league....an ethos.

In the cut and thrust of Premier League football there is more openness to the game and less emphasis on maintaining consistent possession, less patience. Hence less short passing and less interceptions generally.

I assume that is the long and short of it.
 
Interestingly, the table the English teams dominate is the "shots conceded" table, which suggests that either the English teams are more willing to let a player run through the middle (or less able to tackle him / intercept the pass) and get a shot away, or players shoot far more frequently in England; they shoot on sight rather than - as in Spain - trying to work themselves into a better position.
 
Count Orduck said:
Interestingly, the table the English teams dominate is the "shots conceded" table, which suggests that either the English teams are more willing to let a player run through the middle (or less able to tackle him / intercept the pass) and get a shot away, or players shoot far more frequently in England; they shoot on sight rather than - as in Spain - trying to work themselves into a better position.
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That's probably just because of Lampard.
 
Scrumpet said:
That would piss me off
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To be fair we don't know yet. If that's a loan deal with option to buy then it's a fantastic deal for Arsenal. If it's only for a loan, then it's short termism.
 
Quite a few people on Twitter say RM sources have confirmed it's Arsenal. From what I've seen he could be an excellent signing for them.
 
:drool: the dreams still alive, will no doubt be tottenham though.
 
Why would arsenal need him though'? there jam packed with midfielders.
 
feck off Arsenal! I would love if it was us:drool:
 
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