Thank you for the clarification! My bad for causing the initial confusion
Northern Ireland Thread
- Thread starter Gaz.
- Start date
No problem.
The economy in the south is back to hot again especially in Dublin, where most of the housing shortage is too.
There’s an air of confidence, for the most part.
As mentioned earlier, for a lot of people, their wallets will dictate which way they’d vote if a United Ireland question came up.
For some it’d be along nationalist/loyalist grounds but that % could be in the minority. Tough to call, I’d imagine.
Look at Scotland for example; they’ve always voted with their wallets when it came down to independence.
The economy in the south is back to hot again especially in Dublin, where most of the housing shortage is too.
There’s an air of confidence, for the most part.
As mentioned earlier, for a lot of people, their wallets will dictate which way they’d vote if a United Ireland question came up.
For some it’d be along nationalist/loyalist grounds but that % could be in the minority. Tough to call, I’d imagine.
Look at Scotland for example; they’ve always voted with their wallets when it came down to independence.
Scots do everything based on their wallets, sporrans or wherever they keep their cash.
Leaving aside whatever differences in healthcare or education systems may exist, the suggestion on the previous page that the Republic is worse off than NI economically is rather odd as it flies in the face of pretty much every measure of economy going.
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that NI would be automatically better off economically in a United Ireland, let alone both NI and the Republic being better off.
However, that doesn't necessarily mean that NI would be automatically better off economically in a United Ireland, let alone both NI and the Republic being better off.
I'm one of the above employed and yes it would be an economic disaster at least in the short term, interesting to note a large part of the public sector is catholic females.
Anyway, so the new Secretary of State, Karen Bradley said....
"I didn't understand things like when elections are fought for example in Northern Ireland - people who are nationalists don't vote for unionist parties and vice-versa,"
Is this the basic view of most of the mainland, and is she as thick as she sounds? Do the majority of the mainland UK care if NI is fallout for brexit?
Can any of our NI caftards tell me if the DUP are bleeding support?
I can't imagine the shambles of brexit doing them any favours.
I can't imagine the shambles of brexit doing them any favours.
Hard to say but unlikely I'd say - the problem is that many people will vote for them simply because it will stop Sinn Fein getting a majority. That's all that matters to some.
Thanks. Would have thought the other Unionist parties would have proven a challenge.
A united Ireland won't happen. We would reject it in the south. Our already bloated social welfare and healthcare costs couldn't handle it. We couldn't find jobs for the 40% or so in the north employed by the UK government. We couldn't take 1.8m people with a GDP per capita less than half of ours. It's a pipedream.
The current model works great for us because so many young, educated northern Irish people come down south for the higher wages and pay taxes and go home for their free healthcare when they need it. Shame it's unlikely to stay that way.
The current model works great for us because so many young, educated northern Irish people come down south for the higher wages and pay taxes and go home for their free healthcare when they need it. Shame it's unlikely to stay that way.
So long as Sinn Fein exist, they won’t.
Protestants seem to either vote for them (smaller % might go UUP) or just don’t vote.
The way the system is set up here a lot of people vote for them as a stick to beat Sinn Fein with. It’s a real shame it has to be that way (I don’t personally).
Personally I think both parties (DUP and Sinn Fein) are a pack of bastards.
I can say with some pride that I always vote and have never voted for either Sinn Fein or the DUP. You would have to skin me alive to vote for the DUP in particular - I honestly think they are evil bastards.
Errr as someone who relies on the HSE ‘down here’ you’re making it sound like it’s better than it is.
Unless you have a medical card then you are subject to paying €50 for each visit to GP, prescription costs, (I was paying €20 for one shot of heparin until my medical card was approved but typically I’d have to get like 5 or 6 days of shots so €100-120). Ambulance costs, €100 just to visit A&E.
On public lists you have to wait for everything - my son has been waiting 3 years for eye test, another 3 years for getting ears syringed. “Early intervention” here means at least 18 months.
That’s before we even start on bed shortages etc. if anyone thinks the NHS is bad, they need to try the public services here. Seriously
Think last time out I voted UUP, along with Alliance, Greens or whatever.
Gave UUP a vote after they seemed less insane than usual for unionists. So naturally they got wiped out. Country’s fcuked.
In theory our health system is the right mix of public and private but the HSE itself is a joke. We have a higher budget per capita than the NHS do and it mostly goes on all their top heavy management costs.
The other day I had a look in my VHI claims that connolly hospital submitted for me staying & treatment pre and post surgery for quadruple bypass and valve replacement. €30k. Oh and I got free VRE from them.
I haven’t seen the claim from the Mater hospital yet who did the surgery and 5 weeks in there, can only imagine! Oh and free Sepsis. I love freebies
Even beyond the economics, people in the Republic would have to ask themselves if they really want the version of a United Ireland that would be on offer. It's not like a United Ireland would just be the Republic with NI added in, it would likely have to involve great concessions on the Republican side to the point where the new state would be partly British.
For example, would people from the Republic be happy with a UI where the tricolour is gone, maybe a Union Jack is incorporated into the new flag as with Australia and New Zealand, a new constitution is in place, maybe part of the commonwealth, maybe a push for a monarch as head of state as with Canada, Australia and New Zealand, maybe unionists guaranteed seats in whatever new version of the Dail exists, maybe a far more fedarlised structure that gives NI more autonomy (at great bureaucratic cost), maybe a new police force, etc.?
That is a hell of a lot of assumptions (guess work) there.
In fairness no one knows. I figure it would be as bad as brexit negotiations
Well this is the thing, who actually knows what a United Ireland would look like? Nobody ever really discusses this, it's just a vague concept.
For a United Ireland to work it would have to offer enough concessions and compromises to Unionists for them to be able to successfully integrate into the new state. Can you even imagine what it would take to do that? Or a way where that happens without the sort of changes I mentioned?
It is, but I can see where he's coming from nonetheless. Whenever I read the views of southerners on a united ireland they seem to talk only of economics. Wouldn't the bigger problem be how to live in peace with loyalists, who accounted for 30% of killings in the troubles even without a truly existential threat? How would Dublin deal with the security and military problems they would face? What concessions would it take to placate their new loyalist citizens to achieve peace and harmony? How would they be welcomed in a positive manner? Would they actually be welcomed, because if not why is anyone campaigning for a united ireland at all?
I can't imagine how it would be anything less than a political shitshow. As soon as a UI referendum became a real prospect tensions in NI would have to go into overdrive. Against that background you'd have a five-way negotiation between Nationalists, Unionists, the Republic's government, the UK's government and the EU....... *shudders*
Say again? No threat?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not a lover of the loyalists but let’s not pretend they were fighting for nothing.
Not sure what you mean by 'without a truly existential threat'.
There's is a report due next year as to what a UI would look like and how it would be costed. NI is so dependant on the block grant from London that no matter how you cut it Dublin, in the short term, will be out of pocke. Couple that with a population (I think it's nearly 15%) that is employed by the UK Public Sector, it would be very costly. Also lately we have been losing a lot of big employers.
As for the Paramilitary problem, the only reason Loyalist paramilitaries are being quiet and only really "policing" their own areas is because they are getting paid so by "community funding" for schemes in their area. It will all kick off again if there is ever a move towards a UI.
The vast majority of Protestants will vote DUP the same as Catholics will vote Sinn Fean. What has pissed me off most of all is that here in NI we have allowed these cretins nearly 2 years full pay for doing very little.
I didn't say no threat, I said no truly existential threat.
I mean that the UK government made it clear that Northern Ireland would remain in the union unless the citizens there voted otherwise. If I'm wrong about that then apologies, but that's how I always understood the situation to be.
The situation of northern ireland actually being incorporated with the south would be completely different, that wouldn't be any kind of threat, that would be a reality. Would the more militant loyalists merely say, ok, that's that then, fair enough?
Seems to me that if ireland unified there would be a handover of mega-problems from London to Dublin, which would be great for the English of course, but maybe not over the water. The question that's been asked is what steps would the irish take to maintain peace with the loyalists, and have they even thought about it?
Speaking as a southerner, the economic argument against a UI has always carried less weight for me than the prospect of trying to incorporate/integrate almost a million citizens who don't identify with the state or the Irish nation and culture in any way, and who'd clearly rather have remained with the UK.
Yeah thanks, glad I've not lost the plot completely again.
I dont think it's that black and white I am aProtestant and classify myself as Northern Irish, yes I would prefer to stay in the UK but I love Ireland also. If the vote was done and a United Ireland taken forward I would have no problems at all. I know a lot of my generation feel very similar to me also.
It's obviously not people such as yourself that I'd be concerned about, not while the initial inevitable wave of enthusiasm and hope lasts anyway. But with all due respect, it's not people such as yourself and myself who have set the agenda in NI politics over the years. And all it would take would be a bad year or two, or some sort of perceived provocation, for murmurs and dissent to take root, people reminiscing about the good old days (mythical as they might be), and suddenly we're facing a separatist movement led by men with a deep tradition of militancy. I can handle the prospect of a few leans years economically, but risking that kind of turmoil seems a bit much.
Obviously there's much more to it than the economics but imo it's the economics which would get it dismissed down here before anything else came into the fold anyway.
Exactly, also what happens if they all decide to essentially take another 2 year holiday while part of a United Ireland government? The south would be taking on all our shit. A government that doesn't work has to somehow mesh with theirs while one half of the non-functional gits are openly against it. They are taking on our organised crime and potential/former/current terrorists. They take on our high unemployment numbers and our health care bills.
All that while the usual element are taking the opportunity to stir shit up.
I don't see the Union Flag being incorporated, but a new design might be needed. Maybe Green on one side to represent Nationalists, Orange on the other side to represent Unionists and perhaps white in between to represent peace. Oh wait..
Seriously though i think the only way Northern Ireland would work in a United Ireland is if it was semi autonomous. At least at first and then slowly integrating over a number of years maybe decades. Politicians in Dublin won't want to be dealing with the DUP directly.
Thats if it ever happens of course. For the first time in my life i think it's possible people in the north might actually vote for it depending on how hard Brexit hits us. But from speaking to friends and family in the south i'm not so sure it would be a yes vote in the south though.
Some of those larger issues like wait times definitely needs sorting out alright. Any improvement in sight?
On a (somewhat) funnier note: knew an old Ra supporter that was on the waiting list for hip replacements. Eventually went up north and got them done there.
We used to joke that his new hips squeaked No Surrender when he walked.
In the end we paid for him privately and he needed glasses. We paid for our other son to get grommets in his ears €2k, because surprise surprise waiting lists. It’s fecked up, you get to see the same consultant, they spend more time in private than they do in public. When you do get an appointment it’ll be a young registrar
So it’s cheap(ish) but basically unusable for a lot of procedures?
My brother went private too, rather than wait for years.
My brother went private too, rather than wait for years.
Cheap in comparison to living in US I guess but not cheap in comparison to people’s wages etc here. €50 for a gp is a big chunk out of a weekly wage when you consider the cost of rents etc here
Here's the thing though, despite the misgivings I expressed above, I'm pretty sure if it came down to it I'd vote in favour of a UI, heart over-ruling head. Ultimately it may be a once in a lifetime opportunity, I'm not particularly nationalistic but I'd find it extremely hard to face the decision and vote against. Sentiment, emotion and a consciousness of the historical legacy in our hands would lead the south to vote overwhelmingly in favour if given the chance IMO.
Also I'd imagine that in a campaign situation there'll be pretty much nobody significant campaigning against. Who wants to be that guy?
It's about standard for a lot of countries tbf. Problem is we live next to the UK and it's all free there which pisses us off.
Pretty much this. It would be almost be impossible to present a positive and enthusiastic campaign about voting against a United Ireland.
I would vote for UI as well although deep down I'm not too fussed. Yes if was too help the people of Ireland in terms of improving their lives then of course but just for finally getting back a piece of land it seems.....a bit of wasted opportunity to change people lives for the better.
Well that tends to be the case when you're defending something (against change) rather than advocating for something. See Brexit.
There's definitely positives of remaining in the Union over joining Ireland - that's for sure. I also think people don't understand the amount of potential voters, both catholic and protestant who just couldn't be fcuked with such an upheaval to their lives.