Thought it was fantastic personally.
Nolan's Batman
- Thread starter Mockney
- Start date
I really liked it. It's difficult to say if I prefer it over the first two because I liked all three for different reasons. This one did go into full on daft mode, but it was still leagues above other films that tend to do the same thing.
Some general points:
- The one gripe I had was the twist with Bane/Talia. Right from the first second Talia appeared in the film, she may as well have had "Bane's girlfriend" tattooed on her forehead. It was actually very cleverly panned out so she always had a purpose to not revealing herself, but it was just so fecking obvious the whole time.
Also, revealing it to be Talia as the ringleader instead of Bane. That was fine in itself, but did it HAVE to be done in a way to completely bury Bane's character? I mean, within a few seconds he basically went from being a near invincible, genius brute, to some brainwarped skirt wearing pussy, and then no more than a few seconds after that he gets killed, with ease, by a girl.
- They only made the bomb into a time bomb by disconnecting it from the reactor thing and causing it to gradually decay, but then it suddenly had a convenient built in timer with special countdown patterns attached to the side of it. Huh?
- Was it just me, or was the part where Batman flew it out to sea some kind of slightly vague tribute to that extremely silly 60s Batman film where he's carrying the bomb around on the pier trying to find somewhere to throw it away?
- The one gripe I had was the twist with Bane/Talia. Right from the first second Talia appeared in the film, she may as well have had "Bane's girlfriend" tattooed on her forehead. It was actually very cleverly panned out so she always had a purpose to not revealing herself, but it was just so fecking obvious the whole time.
Also, revealing it to be Talia as the ringleader instead of Bane. That was fine in itself, but did it HAVE to be done in a way to completely bury Bane's character? I mean, within a few seconds he basically went from being a near invincible, genius brute, to some brainwarped skirt wearing pussy, and then no more than a few seconds after that he gets killed, with ease, by a girl.
- They only made the bomb into a time bomb by disconnecting it from the reactor thing and causing it to gradually decay, but then it suddenly had a convenient built in timer with special countdown patterns attached to the side of it. Huh?
- Was it just me, or was the part where Batman flew it out to sea some kind of slightly vague tribute to that extremely silly 60s Batman film where he's carrying the bomb around on the pier trying to find somewhere to throw it away?
I thought it was brilliant. It's massively overlong and there are lots of silly bits, and it seems to be about 5 different failure-to-redemption films gaffer taped together by Rocky Balboa serving time in Shawshank prison five times over, but it's suitably epic, and sprawling and comic bookly over the top whilst still somehow maintaining the feel of a serious film (apart form the dressing up and all that). Plus however silly the silly bits are, theres nothing as silly as the implausible ferry scene from TDK.
I'm not sure where I rate the film itself. It's such a different film from Begins and while it's more powerful than TDK, I'm not sure it's as iconic. But for sure the trilogy is up there amongst the very best in film history. It hasn't been let down with a single weak instalment.
Also
I'm not sure where I rate the film itself. It's such a different film from Begins and while it's more powerful than TDK, I'm not sure it's as iconic. But for sure the trilogy is up there amongst the very best in film history. It hasn't been let down with a single weak instalment.
Also
I was so, so close with the OP.....feckers
Funnily enough Mocks,
I was at the theater and thinking "Mockney was wrong".
Well...
I liked the Talia/Bane thing. I thought the backstory, whilst cornily obvious, was suitably decent. But the death of Bane was a disappointment. We finally got a poignant backstory to his character, and an emotive teary Hardy moment......And then... he's just shot by Catwoman and blown off screen. I understand they had about 17 plot strands to tie up, but killing the primary villan like that was a bit shit. There should've at least been a dying scene with Cotillard.
There are lots of things like that that can be picked over. But since it's about 15 hours long and there are 8 sub plots per hour I can forgive most of them.
And yes, the standard film trope countdown timer was silly. Who builds nuclear reactors with countdown timers? I can't imagine it's a requirement of such things. I don't think Oppenheimer insisted on having one. It's counter productive if anything.
There are lots of things like that that can be picked over. But since it's about 15 hours long and there are 8 sub plots per hour I can forgive most of them.
And yes, the standard film trope countdown timer was silly. Who builds nuclear reactors with countdown timers? I can't imagine it's a requirement of such things. I don't think Oppenheimer insisted on having one. It's counter productive if anything.
Yeah, but...
Only at the very, very last moment. I'm sure there was a good 5 minutes where you thought. "Damn, Mockney was right!..He's going to be insufferable on the Caf"
True.
Hans has done some wonderful music for Nolan in these three movies. Especially this one.
Hans has done some wonderful music for Nolan in these three movies. Especially this one.
Also regarding the whole..
...Also Hathaway nailed Catwoman. Almost as much as I'd like to.
Robin reveal...I think they did it really well. Everyone hates Robin. He's a shit character which undermines the cooless of Batman to most un-comic-initiated people. I've looked on some geeky forums where they've been bitching over how it wasn't the correct canon character and thus shit (which is, in part, why everyone hates obsessive comic book fans) but I thought it was handled as good as it possibly could be in this type of series. It fit into the whole "inspiring people" theme of Begins, and the fact we got to know and like this character before we thought of him as the shit gay tight panted pedest character we all know and hate, made the reveal all the more rewarding IMO. Gordon Levit was a really good choice.
...Also Hathaway nailed Catwoman. Almost as much as I'd like to.
Worst of the three.
In the end, it's a 2.5 star (out of 4) affair. There's not a bad performance in the lot, the story is engaging, if not brilliant, and really, the film's greatest failing isn't that it doesn't reach the heights of The Dark Knight, the greatest failing is that I'm not sure it ever really tried.
Anne Hathaway does the best she can, but she's a girl next door trying to play a stunner. Not that she's given the best role to work with, either. At her best, the Catwoman character is the perfect foil for Batman. In this film, she kinda is just because the Batman in this film is such a shell of the one we saw in The Dark Knight.
The Dark Knight ended on a monologue by Gordon, explaining how Batman would be hunted, because he can take it, with the vision of Batman running from police dogs, chasing him as Harvey Dent's supposed murderer. Apparently, that hunt ended as soon as he gave the mutts the slip, because at that point Batman apparently vanished, while Bruce Wayne, with neither his dead not-girlfriend nor some costumed psychopaths to give him a reason to live, does a Howard Hughes and locks himself away, giving up Batman and trying to fund fusion power instead.
The Batman of The Dark Knight faced down the Joker, and made him face up to the fact that the people of Gotham refused to succumb to his mad visions for them. This Batman hides away an invention that would catapult humanity into a new era because he's afraid someone will make a bigger nuke out of it.
I thought it was amazing how they gave Bane a couple hundred more lines than the did they silent behemoth we saw in Schumacher's movie, all without adding a single ounce of depth to the character. Tate-lia is an incoherent mess. Also Gordon is a failure as Commissioner because he kept up the lie about Harvey Dent, Alfred is a failure because he burnt that letter Rachel left saying she was picking Harvey, Razz-al-Ghul made the post-death Jedi appearance Qui-Gon never got to in the Star Wars prequels, and in the end, Bruce and Selina ride off into the sunset together, leaving the Batman legacy to a cop who we find out in the last two minutes of the movie is named "Robin."
One of the most astonishing things about The Dark Knight was that it was a comic book movie that didn't require us to take things on faith. Not just the nonexistent superpowers and such, but elements of the character's origins, motivations, etc. We weren't asked to take on faith that two boatloads of Gothamites would choose not to try to murder the other boatload to save their own lives. We watched the arguments play out. We weren't asked to take on faith Dent's transition from hero to villain. We watched every step, from the dark side Harvey kept so carefully hidden, to his final fall to the Joker's twisted logic.
Dark Knight Rises asks us to take EVERYTHING on faith. It asks us to believe 12 million Gothamites, with all the guns that many Americans must own, can be cowed by an army of a couple thousand and a muscular dude with a Darth Vader respirator. It asks us to take on faith that there is some legal means of locking up 1000 criminals that A) doesn't already exist, and B) isn't blatantly unconstitutional, (I think the Bane/Bain/Romney nonsense purporting that this movie made Bane the villain in order to re-elect Obama might be the most hilarious part of things, given that what's keeping criminals off the street is a Gotham-themed Patriot Act and Bane is using Occupy Rhetoric to "give the people hope" as he institutes a brutally tyrannical government on Gotham,) and most of all, it asks us to take on faith that the Bruce Wayne who gives up being Batman is still Batman.
I think he should have died in the explosion. It would have been a sad ending, but at least it would have been a fitting one. Bruce, not the Batman he once was, can't pull off the miracle escape this time, but he can at least go down saving Gotham one last time.
The Dark Knight ended on a monologue by Gordon, explaining how Batman would be hunted, because he can take it, with the vision of Batman running from police dogs, chasing him as Harvey Dent's supposed murderer. Apparently, that hunt ended as soon as he gave the mutts the slip, because at that point Batman apparently vanished, while Bruce Wayne, with neither his dead not-girlfriend nor some costumed psychopaths to give him a reason to live, does a Howard Hughes and locks himself away, giving up Batman and trying to fund fusion power instead.
The Batman of The Dark Knight faced down the Joker, and made him face up to the fact that the people of Gotham refused to succumb to his mad visions for them. This Batman hides away an invention that would catapult humanity into a new era because he's afraid someone will make a bigger nuke out of it.
I thought it was amazing how they gave Bane a couple hundred more lines than the did they silent behemoth we saw in Schumacher's movie, all without adding a single ounce of depth to the character. Tate-lia is an incoherent mess. Also Gordon is a failure as Commissioner because he kept up the lie about Harvey Dent, Alfred is a failure because he burnt that letter Rachel left saying she was picking Harvey, Razz-al-Ghul made the post-death Jedi appearance Qui-Gon never got to in the Star Wars prequels, and in the end, Bruce and Selina ride off into the sunset together, leaving the Batman legacy to a cop who we find out in the last two minutes of the movie is named "Robin."
One of the most astonishing things about The Dark Knight was that it was a comic book movie that didn't require us to take things on faith. Not just the nonexistent superpowers and such, but elements of the character's origins, motivations, etc. We weren't asked to take on faith that two boatloads of Gothamites would choose not to try to murder the other boatload to save their own lives. We watched the arguments play out. We weren't asked to take on faith Dent's transition from hero to villain. We watched every step, from the dark side Harvey kept so carefully hidden, to his final fall to the Joker's twisted logic.
Dark Knight Rises asks us to take EVERYTHING on faith. It asks us to believe 12 million Gothamites, with all the guns that many Americans must own, can be cowed by an army of a couple thousand and a muscular dude with a Darth Vader respirator. It asks us to take on faith that there is some legal means of locking up 1000 criminals that A) doesn't already exist, and B) isn't blatantly unconstitutional, (I think the Bane/Bain/Romney nonsense purporting that this movie made Bane the villain in order to re-elect Obama might be the most hilarious part of things, given that what's keeping criminals off the street is a Gotham-themed Patriot Act and Bane is using Occupy Rhetoric to "give the people hope" as he institutes a brutally tyrannical government on Gotham,) and most of all, it asks us to take on faith that the Bruce Wayne who gives up being Batman is still Batman.
I think he should have died in the explosion. It would have been a sad ending, but at least it would have been a fitting one. Bruce, not the Batman he once was, can't pull off the miracle escape this time, but he can at least go down saving Gotham one last time.
In the end, it's a 2.5 star (out of 4) affair. There's not a bad performance in the lot, the story is engaging, if not brilliant, and really, the film's greatest failing isn't that it doesn't reach the heights of The Dark Knight, the greatest failing is that I'm not sure it ever really tried.
Here, here! Hathaway really surprised me, I thought she was really good.
Hathaway was pefect for the catwoman role. And even though it was a long movie, my concentration was captured throughout. Fantastic movie.
My only beef with this movie..
my only beef was the fact Batman wasn't in it that much. It was all Bruce Wayne. The Joker in TDK kind of ruined any chances for future bad guys.
How frikkin' sexy was she!?
That last paragraph is spot on. I kind of got the impression that Nolan was glad to wrap the trilogy up and as such the cracks started to appear.
I wonder what the third film would've been like had Ledger not died? I can't imagine they wouldn't have included the Joker again.
Also I know what you mean about the logistics of their plan to ensure that everyone remained on the island but unlike you I found that it was one of the things I was able to just take on faith along with stuff like him finding his way back to Gotham after escaping that prison in the middle of nowhere.
Although that said, why did Robin decide to take one bus full of kids the bridge way which was inevitably going to lead to a confrontation when he'd already sent the word out for other families to escape via the tunnels underground? [/movie logic]
Although that said, why did Robin decide to take one bus full of kids the bridge way which was inevitably going to lead to a confrontation when he'd already sent the word out for other families to escape via the tunnels underground? [/movie logic]
Yes we were. We were asked to take the implausible logistics of that entirely on faith. It was a ludicrous "lets have a set piece here" scene tbf.
Good, suffers in comparison with previous two since it tried to take too much on. I agreed with Cass's post mostly.
I liked Hathway as catwoman, would have liked her to see more of her and Batman in the movie.
And yeah, you can't help but wonder what third would have been like if Ledger was still alive.
I liked Hathway as catwoman, would have liked her to see more of her and Batman in the movie.
The Talia twist you could see coming from the beginning of the movie so was very unnecesssary.
And yeah, you can't help but wonder what third would have been like if Ledger was still alive.
I got a question actually. Was Selina Kyle (quite cool that she was never referred to once as Catwoman)
bisexual? And what happened to her partner (in crime) at the end there?
She just dumped her for Batman, the hussy.
She just dumped her for Batman, the hussy.
The Nolan brothers basically had to tear up their first draft script and start from scratch when ledger died.
Joker was supposed to play a main role in this movie.
Speculation a year or two back had the joker as a Hannibal lector style character that batman Visited in Arkham asylum throughout the movie to gain info on bane etc. This was of course, all going to be part of a huge joker plan that would subsequently lead to an escape and final showdown. How better a way to finish a trilogy than have Batman face his archnemisis?
Joker was supposed to play a main role in this movie.
Speculation a year or two back had the joker as a Hannibal lector style character that batman Visited in Arkham asylum throughout the movie to gain info on bane etc. This was of course, all going to be part of a huge joker plan that would subsequently lead to an escape and final showdown. How better a way to finish a trilogy than have Batman face his archnemisis?
Such a pity, because The Joker (Ledger) is/was an impossible act to follow.
Is all that fact or just fan boy rumours? I find it hard to believe they started work on the script for TDKR before TDK even released.
A question for those who have seen it and are in the know?
So is there going to be any kind of follow up with Robin etc, or is that it... finito, nada??
Nolan said he won't do anymore but as far as I'm aware the studio had asked him to write something like that into it so that they could keep the franchise going if they wanted to. Whether they'll make a Robin film or not remains to be seen.
By the way, this cost more to make than The Avengers, but am I the only one who left thinking that it should've cost less? The action scenes were far less spectacular.
Not a full on script buddy, but a storyline was most definately in place even back as early as 2006.
This info has never come directly from Nolan, but from Warner Bros insiders, do take it as you will.
The thing that we do know is that Warner wanted TDKR released last summer, exactly 3 years after TDK. Ledgers death meant that all of the prep work with regard to the storyline etc had to be discarded as nolan was adamant that the joker could not and would not be recast. This was the main reason for the 4 year gap between films.
Thanks Cina
I think Nolan has said that's it for him. Remains to be seen what direction the next person wants to take it in although like you say there are options open to him to pick it up from the end of this one.
I thought that the John Blake character was being set up as the guy to take over as Batman actually so that 'Robin' moment at the end was a bit jarring (surely his real name should have been Richard or Dick anyway?) especially after there was no mention of Catwoman.
One of the major threads of the movies was that Batman was more than just a man and that it didn't matter who wore the mask as long as people knew that he was out there doing his thing. They showed that Blake had the same values as Wayne (that cheesy bit where he shot the construction guys and looked at his gun before throwing it aside) and Wayne obviously trusted him enough to give him the directions to the cave in his will.
I guess if somone wanted to pick it up from there they could go that route and have Blake take over from an aging/retired Bruce Wayne with him maybe coming back at some point and Blake then becoming a sidekick (eurgh).
How old was Bane by the way? Must have been at least 50 given Talia was in her 30's.
One of the major threads of the movies was that Batman was more than just a man and that it didn't matter who wore the mask as long as people knew that he was out there doing his thing. They showed that Blake had the same values as Wayne (that cheesy bit where he shot the construction guys and looked at his gun before throwing it aside) and Wayne obviously trusted him enough to give him the directions to the cave in his will.
I guess if somone wanted to pick it up from there they could go that route and have Blake take over from an aging/retired Bruce Wayne with him maybe coming back at some point and Blake then becoming a sidekick (eurgh).
How old was Bane by the way? Must have been at least 50 given Talia was in her 30's.
Warner bros will reboot the series. New director, new actors, new approach.
Just hope WB are in no hurry to make a new Batman film. They didn't make a Superman for over 10 years, I wouldn't mind a break of 6-7 years.
Thanks guys. I hope they don't re-do it again like they've done with Spiderman, at least not as soon as, anyway. Could it be said that this was the definitive version of Batman? I haven't read the comics, so I wouldn't know.
In this time of superhero prosperity, when Avengers has made over $1 billion and The Dark Knight Rises will come close, I just can't see them waiting too long.
On catwoman, etc.
No idea how much these things cost but to be fair, even though I liked Avengers, this was a much better film and no less entertaining, so if you're paying for end product I guess it makes sense.
Now, I'm not denying that Hathaway was ridiculously sexy in that role, but I wasn't really sold on the actual character. She didn't really fit in with any of the other characters in the series. It's like they sort of plucked her from a different universe. Plus every time she was on the screen the dialogue would descend into a cheesy one liner fest. In fact, it was like she'd escaped from a James Bond film. Also she was basically just a complete bitch. She used and stole from people the whole film, did nothing noble or to help anyone other than herself when things went to shit, and then only came back at the end for selfish reasons (because she fancied Batman). So there wasn't really "more to her" at all. She was just a smart mouthed jewell thief who was prepared to aid in the death of millions of people to "clear" her name.
Robin on the other hand I thought they did perfectly. I actually being a dumbass didn't figure out he was supposed to be Robin until it was revealed at the end. I thought he was going to end up being the new Batman or something (which I also would have found a bit gay). I don't get why people wouldn't be happy that Robin wasn't a weiner. He's supposed to be Batman's accomplice, and so he behaved in a way that someone who might end up being Batman's accomplice/sidekick should. i.e. with similar values. Plus, he was a bit of a weiner, just not enough of one to dislike him or make him seem weak. I think that was spot on.
Also yeah, the ending. It was too obvious that Nolan had been at least semi shoe-horned into leaving it open for some kind of sequel. A bit of a shame but it didn't stop it from being a very good film
Robin on the other hand I thought they did perfectly. I actually being a dumbass didn't figure out he was supposed to be Robin until it was revealed at the end. I thought he was going to end up being the new Batman or something (which I also would have found a bit gay). I don't get why people wouldn't be happy that Robin wasn't a weiner. He's supposed to be Batman's accomplice, and so he behaved in a way that someone who might end up being Batman's accomplice/sidekick should. i.e. with similar values. Plus, he was a bit of a weiner, just not enough of one to dislike him or make him seem weak. I think that was spot on.
Also yeah, the ending. It was too obvious that Nolan had been at least semi shoe-horned into leaving it open for some kind of sequel. A bit of a shame but it didn't stop it from being a very good film
No idea how much these things cost but to be fair, even though I liked Avengers, this was a much better film and no less entertaining, so if you're paying for end product I guess it makes sense.
We can expect a reboot within 4-5 years IMO.
I want a fully established Batman from the get go for this reboot. Maybe an opening credit sequence where you see his parents gunned down and then a brief summary of his years of training honing his masterful skills.
What we don't need is another Batman begins retread.
I want a fully established Batman from the get go for this reboot. Maybe an opening credit sequence where you see his parents gunned down and then a brief summary of his years of training honing his masterful skills.
What we don't need is another Batman begins retread.
The could do a straight up version of The Dark Knight Returns. An older Batman would be interesting. Don't know if many people would fancy playing the Joker after Legder (although they said that after Jack Nicholson).
That would be cool. I could see someone like Kurt Russell doing a great job as Batman.
Before BB in '05 it was heavily speculated that they would make a film out of the dark knight returns graphic novel. Back then Clint Eastwood was the fan boys first choice for the title role, probably a bit old for it now though.
Fans of The Wire
Fans of Dexter
notice Major Colvin anywhere?
Fans of Dexter
Notice Quinn being an annoying feck as usual?
Where was Major Colvin? Also Bellick from Prison Break and Tommy Carchetti/Little Finger.
Implausible as in "it's implausible that a guy in face-paint is going around setting bombs" or as in, within the context of a guy in face-paint going around setting bombs, somehow actually implausible? Or in other words, what are you asserting had to be taken on faith?
That would be cool. I could see someone like Kurt Russell doing a great job as Batman.
Before BB in '05 it was heavily speculated that they would make a film out of the dark knight returns graphic novel. Back then Clint Eastwood was the fan boys first choice for the title role, probably a bit old for it now though.
Just got back from seeing it, thought it was very very good... not quite as good as The Dark Knight, but probably on a par with Begins.
I'm quite suprised for the praise that Hathaway's getting... I thought she was okay at best. At times, particularly in the first half of the film, I thought there were bits where she was really over-acting/hamming it up, and it made me realise i'm actually watching a silly comic-book film, and one of the things i've liked about this Batman series has been it's ability to make you forget you're watching a comic-book film.
Also, out of all 3, this one is surely the least kid friendly. How long did we actually see Wayne in his Batman gear in this film?? I reckon it was about 20 minutes or so??... not that i'm complaining of course, just think it's quite interesting that the film worked incredibly well despite their not actually being that much Batman.
I'm quite suprised for the praise that Hathaway's getting... I thought she was okay at best. At times, particularly in the first half of the film, I thought there were bits where she was really over-acting/hamming it up, and it made me realise i'm actually watching a silly comic-book film, and one of the things i've liked about this Batman series has been it's ability to make you forget you're watching a comic-book film.
Also, out of all 3, this one is surely the least kid friendly. How long did we actually see Wayne in his Batman gear in this film?? I reckon it was about 20 minutes or so??... not that i'm complaining of course, just think it's quite interesting that the film worked incredibly well despite their not actually being that much Batman.
- Did Coltard/Talia's master plan hold up post-reveal? I mean, why did she let Catwoman break out Fox and Wayne? for example?
- I agree that it diminished the power/force of Bane... who up until that point was pretty fantastic I thought. His death was also a bit anti-climatic because of it
- JGL was excellent... and a great way to use/introduce the Robin character. What I didn't need was the rather ridiculous "I like your real name... Robin" at the end, I had already worked out that much cheers.
- As per usual, Michael Caine offered up fantastic support.
- Good cameo's from Murphy and Liam Neeson as well... who should always be required to fit the word "taken" into any cameo he ever makes.
- I agree that it diminished the power/force of Bane... who up until that point was pretty fantastic I thought. His death was also a bit anti-climatic because of it
- JGL was excellent... and a great way to use/introduce the Robin character. What I didn't need was the rather ridiculous "I like your real name... Robin" at the end, I had already worked out that much cheers.
- As per usual, Michael Caine offered up fantastic support.
- Good cameo's from Murphy and Liam Neeson as well... who should always be required to fit the word "taken" into any cameo he ever makes.
Only gripe was
Bane's death, a proper cop out to have him go out like that. Also I don't think he was really shown as the genius, super intelligent guy he is. The physical side was perfect but he is really intellectual and I didn't get the full feeling of that