Claude Makelele
Marcos Senna
Sergi Busquets
Zinedine Zidane
Xavi
Riquelme
What are the relationships between these names?
N'Golo Kante | Off to Chelsea
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Claude Makelele
Marcos Senna
Sergi Busquets
Zinedine Zidane
Xavi
Riquelme
What are the relationships between these names?
The biggest issue with Schneiderlin was his negative passing, even when it was obvious players in forward positions were there to receive relatively easy passes. I suppose that could have been due to LvG's coaching to avoid loss of ball in his position.
Ngolo based on last years performances would be a good purchase. Although I think the squad is top heavy on defensively minded midfielders.
Ngolo based on last years performances would be a good purchase. Although I think the squad is top heavy on defensively minded midfielders.
Whilst you're making a valid point. Busquets is in no way a limited footballer.
I agree.
United never had the likes of Makele, Matuidi, and Kante during their years of domination. I'd much prefer box to box players who can contribute both in defence and attack. The 4 defenders should have enough between them to cope with opponents breakaways.
Unfortunately, most modern coaches now prefer a sitting midfielder. Mourinho is one of them.
We dominated domestically but always underperformed in Europe, and the only time we did start to become a force (07-11) under Fergie was when he adopted a more pragmatic style, so I do think it's necessary if you want to be successful in the CL.
Agreed, but the point was as you correctly understood more bout what a xavi needs around him to be a xavi.
How's it going buddy?
We won a couple European cups, and reached final of 2 more without having a specialist holding player. The most successful teams over the last few years in Europe (Madrid, Barca, Bayern) don't have specialists players who confined to play in such limited space.
Not bad Sults you?!
IIRC Madrid used Khedira and Casameiro in their two finals to just sit there and break up play. I think it's a necessary part of the modern game, for better or for worse!
Matuidi is a strange example considering he pretty much epitomizes a box to box midfielder. He never plays as the deepest one and actually gets beyond the forward very regularly.
I agree with your overall point, its usually a tired cliche that you need "a player like that in your team". You need to have a midfielder who is capable of sitting, but they do not need the qualities of a Kante, they can easily be more Carrick-like.
What most entertains me about Kanté, as someone else mentioned, is when he loses the ball or is tackled, the way he goes a bit mental and puts on the turbos to win the ball back almost immediately. He's got such a keen focus in midfield to keep or win the ball. It's a truly invaluable quality to have, especially when the player can go about it as cleanly in the tackle as he does.
On another note, there is a valid argument for those who want a true ball-user in midfielder rather than someone who recycles possession for others to use. A Verratti over a Kanté makes sense in every way, but the reality is: 1. Mourinho is absolutely at home with the latter and 2. ball-using CM's with true defensive quality are about the rarest player you can go after, well them, and genuine DLP's.
You can't sit over a summer wishing on a prayer instead of pro-actively going after what's feasible and attainable in the market. You can chase a Verratti all summer and not get him whilst a Kanté goes elsewhere and enhances another team. You've tried and you've failed, what is the point in doing that?
These gold dust players are the ones you earmark for a later date and try and bring them in when they become available. Actively chasing after those locked into good contracts at rich clubs, or those who aren't proven and could just as easily flop, is a fool's errand in this day and age, especially when our predicament is considered.
On another note, there is a valid argument for those who want a true ball-user in midfielder rather than someone who recycles possession for others to use. A Verratti over a Kanté makes sense in every way, but the reality is: 1. Mourinho is absolutely at home with the latter and 2. ball-using CM's with true defensive quality are about the rarest player you can go after, well them, and genuine DLP's.
You can't sit over a summer wishing on a prayer instead of pro-actively going after what's feasible and attainable in the market. You can chase a Verratti all summer and not get him whilst a Kanté goes elsewhere and enhances another team. You've tried and you've failed, what is the point in doing that?
These gold dust players are the ones you earmark for a later date and try and bring them in when they become available. Actively chasing after those locked into good contracts at rich clubs, or those who aren't proven and could just as easily flop, is a fool's errand in this day and age, especially when our predicament is considered.
I still think people are getting far too giddy about him. I mean come on now he's a good player yeah but there are a few world class shouts going around which is going a bit far.
The main problem I still have with Kante is that I don't think he's necessarily a good enough player on the ball to thrive at a top club.
If you think about all the midfielders at the top clubs at the minute very few of them that I can think of have players in midfield who aren't that good with the ball.
Plus we are really stacked in defensive midfield at the minute. I appreciate that everyone has changed their minds on the likes of Schniederlin and Carrick is getting on, but I do think we need a more attack minded midfielder than a defensive one at the minute.
After watching players like Kroos and especially Modric I think we would be better suited finding someone like them. I understand that as far as getting one of those two goes it's not going to happen, but someone of the same style.
I can just imagine poor Kante getting dragged off at half time at home against the likes of I don't know Bournemouth because they have ten men behind the ball so he has absolutely nothing to do.
The main problem I still have with Kante is that I don't think he's necessarily a good enough player on the ball to thrive at a top club.
If you think about all the midfielders at the top clubs at the minute very few of them that I can think of have players in midfield who aren't that good with the ball.
Plus we are really stacked in defensive midfield at the minute. I appreciate that everyone has changed their minds on the likes of Schniederlin and Carrick is getting on, but I do think we need a more attack minded midfielder than a defensive one at the minute.
After watching players like Kroos and especially Modric I think we would be better suited finding someone like them. I understand that as far as getting one of those two goes it's not going to happen, but someone of the same style.
I can just imagine poor Kante getting dragged off at half time at home against the likes of I don't know Bournemouth because they have ten men behind the ball so he has absolutely nothing to do.
Interesting to see him have a bad game. Was harshly booked and then looked unnerved when going in for the ball, he also started to run out of position trying to make up for his booking.
Misses the QF, too, which is good news for whoever France face.
Misses the QF, too, which is good news for whoever France face.
they are using him wrongly, he isnt and never will be a DM/holding midfielder.....they pretty much sacrifice his biggest asset, like having Neymar and forbid him to dribble.
Not necessarily the conclusion you draw. When Kante was subbed off, Matuidi and Pogba went to next gear. If anything, I suspect the style/ way Kante plays (all action) is hindering Matuidi and Pogba in some way. Remind me of Veron in our midfield. Veron was no way bad, understandably flop for the expectation and price tag. Veron just made our midfield of Scholes Keane Giggs Beckham hiccup. While surprisingly Veron and Phil Neville made an interesting partnership for a/ some great run of games at times.
Agree. I have maintained Kante had been untested/ unproven as deep lying midfielder this whole time when people keep comparing him to Makelele. I saw huge difference between his few games in this role vs Makelele I remembered very well. Have been confused what people have been talking about with this likening. Very much stereotyping.
I rate Kante in a different than deep,lying midfielder. But that means I am not sure where we would get him, because the role I rate him happens to step on Bastian, Shneiderlin, Herrera, Rooney's new role, potentially Pogba,... He offers different attribute, style but the role may conflict. I would welcome him in case Mourinho haul off few players in his roles, but can't see the interest if he is our Makelele.
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Ireland were absolutely exhausted by the time Pogba played deep, that changed the game more than any personnel did. There was space and more time in midfield then and if there's no longer any midfield threat coming at you, you obviously load your side with the most expansive players you have.
Kanté's worth is better revealed in games like the next one France will play, where you definitely don't want Pogba in that position.
Not disagreed, but time will tell. As the evidence showed, there is something just not right there with the chemistry of France midfield. Kante missed QF, so SM then in case Deschamps doesn't find a better unit for France midfield.
I'd look at Matuidi more than Kanté regarding that lack of chemistry, tbh. He doesn't link play and he's not providing much apart from running. France need a midfielder next to Kanté who loves to link play and use the ball constructively to feed Pogba and the offensive line.
Kanté out against England (assuming they go through) is a big loss.
I'd play Fosu Mensah ahead of singing Kante, and I reckon he could contribute similarly. Kante runs around tackles, and isn't required to do much more with the ball. Mensah can do at least that, he's even shown that already. He may well become a better ball player than Kante too.
Exactly this. Similar to how Van Gaal often used Schneiderlin.
I don't think we need Kante at all, we need either a creative deep midfielder to replace the aging Carrick/Schweinsteiger/Rooney (although I believe Blind could take on this role), or a truly disciplined anchoring midfielder like Matic, Dier, Busquets, Casemiro, Martinez, Kouyate etc (which I hope Fosu-Mensah could eventually become).
I see Matuidi as player like Fletcher. You don't expect more than solid display in these type of games vs weaker teams. But in bigger games, he really shines. He has good chemistry with Pogba and the others by games before this tournament except Kante if you ask me. Larsana Diarra injury near the start of the tourney is a real blow. France couldn't try with a different approach much and forced Kante in his new role. France doesn't have real deep lying defensive midfielder with Larsana Diarra out.
Kante is amazing at interceptions and he also has a driving run through midfield. But he's somewhat lacking technically and his passing is very average. But for £20m, it'd be a very good deal for interested teams.
The underrating of Kante is hideous. 
Helped orchestrate a title win for Leicester fecking City whilst arguably being the best player in the league, but never mind, 18 year old Fosu-Mensah with 404 minutes of senior football can do his job.
Helped orchestrate a title win for Leicester fecking City whilst arguably being the best player in the league, but never mind, 18 year old Fosu-Mensah with 404 minutes of senior football can do his job.Lacking technically compared to whom? I have this feeling the standards around here are completely unrealistic at times, bordering on absurdity. The only way he's lacking technically is if you compare him to someone like Iniesta. But Iniesta doesn't do the things he does on a football pitch. His dribbling is perfectly adequate. He has an excellent turn of pace. He never loses the ball on a pass. There is no such thing as a player who can do more than that.
The underrating of Kante is hideous.
Its a common tactic in e-arguing. When contrasting two players, always play up the benefits of the player you support whilst selectively omitting aspects of the other player's skills and bigging up their perceived weaknesses.
You could catch on overrating more than underrating here in this same thread. Overrating here is the notion that Kante is Makelele (which is clearly not Kante's role before few games in this Euro) or one in this or other thread saying an superior version of Makelele. Kante is more similar to Keane style. Different attributes, but Keane, already discount his leadership quality is still overall better player in term of dictating play, inserting real presence, orchestrating attack. Kante is more all action, but Keano is not less aggressive. Keano was more tactical disciplined (not as well mental discipline). Kante has better engine (even though Keane's great) thus better run with the ball and have a cleaner tackler/ ball winning style.The underrating of Kante is hideous.
Then you have Essien who I believe the perfect blend between Keane and Kante best attributes. Kante is very good player to have, but is not a must buy for most of the big team since as his attribute and role often invades other players. He's not there yet. If team to build team around him, while would be a big waste using him as sub. He may still be able to add a different dimension to his game as he's still young, but with his current tool, the some big teams still find it hard to give him enough game time to help develop that new dimension. He's into the Guti type of situation (not comparing style here).
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Lacking technically? Are we talking about the same Kante? For me he was one of the top 5 players in the league last season. Screened the back 4, and kept it simple supplying the attacks.
The underrating of Kante is hideous.
What is pure iorny is that you most likley never heard of N'golo Kante before this season and if anybody would have said he had the quality to be great player and be instrumental in a title win before this season, you would have been laughing that off as bullshit as he was a completley unknow unproven player at the highest level.
Now people are suggesting Fosu-Mensah might have similar qualities and you are laughing that off because he also is completley unproven at the highest level.
If Kante can be such a complete surprise why can't other players be a complete surprise, why can't Fosu-Mensah be one ?
I do think he's a bit over rated but he's obviously a very good player and for 20 million he'd do well for us.
He isn't the best midfielder technically but that's not what his game is based around anyway. I wouldn't say he's the best player in the league or the ever over used "world class" but bringing him in would make our midfield much more solid. On the flip side we'd need someone who can play next to him but we're lacking in that department anyway as it stands.
Something like Kante along Bastian would be fantastic, with TFM and Morgan as squad players.
He isn't the best midfielder technically but that's not what his game is based around anyway. I wouldn't say he's the best player in the league or the ever over used "world class" but bringing him in would make our midfield much more solid. On the flip side we'd need someone who can play next to him but we're lacking in that department anyway as it stands.
Something like Kante along Bastian would be fantastic, with TFM and Morgan as squad players.
The underrating of Kante is hideous.
This same Kante was a nobody a year ago, and given a chance he was immense. I believe 18 year old Mensah can do the same.
And as good as Kante was, his on the ball ability is not as great as most central midfielders with his existing profile. He is very good at what he does, and for me, those strengths are Fosu Mensahs strengths too. Mensah has shown that he can do it against men, and over the next 18 months, can negate the need to sign Mensah.
There is also blind ageism against young players at times. I debated it in real life with many non United fans who thought Rashford doesn't deserve to go to the Euros. Ultimately, he's just being discriminated against because he's young. Mensah hasn't shown himself to be incompetent just because he's 18. He's been amongst our best players in most appearances. But you probably can't shake the fact that he is 'an 18 year old kid'. I believe he can do what Kante does, at least to a good enough level this season to negate the need to sign Kante.
He wasn't 'unknown' at the top level, he had 4 seasons of senior football under his belt, with two in Ligue 1. That's a tiny bit different from an 18 year old youth product. Not to mention, you're completing missing my point. I never argued Fosu-Mensah couldn't have some sort of similar revelation, rather rejecting Kante on the off chance this happens is absolutely absurd.
Rejecting Kante ?
Is he somehow offering himself to us as a free player ? I don't think so, he is under contract at Leicester and to get him we will need to pay a hefty amount of money. If we have the feeling we dont nesc need Kante because we have a similar player already at our club in TFM than it would be absurd to spend that kind of cash.
... The hypothetical offered by Rozay is that he doesn't want Kante because we have Fosu-Mensah. I do think some people will be in for a shock when players like Fosu-Mensah very rarely make the starting team next season. Mourinho is far from van Gaal.
The purported amount is very small too, BTW. Like £20m buy-out clause.
TFM is a maybe, nothing more at present. He cannot be relied upon simply because no-one knows what he can do yet. We can all speculate about how good he might end up, but its all just speculation at this point. Kante is an experienced and dependable and is proven to be extremely effective at what he does. Plus he is in the form of his life. We know pretty much what he can do, and what we can expect him to do for us. TFM hasn't proven anything as yet, so how can he reasonably be considered anything more than a young player with potential at thisp oint. Rejecting the notion of signing a regularly effective consistent performer like Kante, by promoting the untested potential of an inexperienced youth player, doesn't make much sense to me either im afraid.
i totally agree with those saying that Kante is not a holding midfield. When he won the league with Leicester he played in a midfield 2 with Drinkwater. Kante played as a box-to-box while Drinkwater was more the playmaker. In the French team he's playing as a Defensive mid behind Pogba and Matuidi. In my opinion i don't think this is getting the best out of him.
A player like him dosen't have to be excellent on the ball because that's not his role in the team. I would love to see him at United next season playing in a midfield 3 as the box-to-box midfielder. Id love to also see the signing of Isco as i think they could work perfect together as Isco is excellent on the ball and very good dribbler. Kante's job is to win the ball and pass it to an attacker.
Also i would want to see TFM playing as the defensive midfield player, playing begind Kante and Isco.
Why cant Kante and TFM be in the same team? i ask this because i see postS suggesting that we don't need kante as we have TFM.
A player like him dosen't have to be excellent on the ball because that's not his role in the team. I would love to see him at United next season playing in a midfield 3 as the box-to-box midfielder. Id love to also see the signing of Isco as i think they could work perfect together as Isco is excellent on the ball and very good dribbler. Kante's job is to win the ball and pass it to an attacker.
Also i would want to see TFM playing as the defensive midfield player, playing begind Kante and Isco.
Why cant Kante and TFM be in the same team? i ask this because i see postS suggesting that we don't need kante as we have TFM.
I was specifically referring to his passing. Technically he's on a similar level to Schneiderlin and Herrera, who are decent on the ball. In terms of his passing, he loses the ball 2/3 times every game when pressed and under pressure or if he looks for a long pass. Don't get me wrong, he's good when needing to pass the ball sideways for distances around 5/10 yards. But to accommodate him, we would need a decent passer playing box to box(assuming Kante plays CDM). If we look at France's second game of the Euros, when they dropped Pogba, France were majorly lacking in midfield as the passing from midfield was too slow as neither Kante or Matuidi had the passing range to shift the ball cross field consistently enough to break down a defensive team. The ball was shifted out wide to Martial and Coman, who were double marked as the passes were delayed to them. At United, we will be faring against very similar circumstances, in that opposition teams will park the bus and we will need to pass the ball quickly and penetratingly. I personally don't see Kante posses that sort of passing ability.
But like I said in my previous post and this post, Kante is fantastic at making interceptions can run past several players in midfield to create space and at around £20m, it'd be a steal. But we would need a better technician to play alongside him. Also, I understand some on here underestimate Kante's abilities, but there's clearly also a fair few who exaggerate it. I mean the last sentence of yours alone, sums up how absurdly you value him.
I think it's difficult at present to assess players as before it appeared to be on ability but now it appears to be in what system you play them in. Not sure whether he could offer anything other than what it says on the tin (although that's not always a bad thing)......
Poppycock. You've been watching someone else throughout this season then.
You don't know what you want. Football is far simpler than looking at passing range or whatever whimsical magic you're thinking of when you refer to technical ability. It's about transition and teamwork. It's about running, finding space and movement. The problem with that is that you're trying to compare him to an ideal which does not exist in the modern game. He sets the standard as a box-to-box midfielder who is at ease in a classic counter-attacking system. He is the perfect team player because the system does not revolve around him, he alters his play to fit in.
Just for argument's sake, who else, currently playing at this level does the things he does better? Let's look at technique since it seems to be the mot du jour. Feel like some think it's about pulling off flicks and roulettes.
What?
Kanté rarely loses the ball and he isn't afraid of a forward, progressive pass. Obviously it's not his forte, but he's not where passes or attacks go to die, either. He does his bit in the chain, but prefers to defer expansive stuff to the players in the team who are supposed to play them, which is more intelligence than incompetence.
If you're saying you want midfielders with more general passing nous, fair enough, but Kanté is nowhere near as limited as you're making out. He's even shown long-range, cross-field passing from deep that no-one even knew he could do in this tournament, so if anything, he's displaying more in his locker than people thought he had before the tournament started.
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