Gotta be a lost bet involved here...
NFL 2023
- Thread starter Raoul
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Guys first time I will be able to play fantasy with y’all. Whats the plan? I am excited
I don't know. But if I were a GM I would not hire him, because he has worked with an abundance of talent that most teams won't be able to match.
Many might think that it's easy af to be an OC if you have Mahomes at QB.
That you’re racist? I knew there was something dodgy about you!
Just to play a bit of devil’s advocate. Sometimes the way racial bias manifests is that you look at potential issues. For example, for looking for reasons for why you shouldn’t hire someone rather than looking for reasons why you should hire someone despite potential issues. All these things about interviewing badly, about having a bad relationship - all might be valid points but may also be similar traits white coaches have had in the past. Just that for them, owners and GMs think “yeah but because of x y z it’s fine” whereas for an equivalent black coach they might think “oh that’s a problem”. The perspective might be different. And so the cause of these issues manifesting actually comes from race first before anything else.
But - having read the posts the last few pages - I don’t think anyone has denied the above may be happening. Just that a) it’s not reasonable to assume he solely hasn’t been hired because he’s black and b) you can’t say for sure how much him being black is the reason. All the hypotheticals about “what do you think if you had to guess?” Or “what would have happened to a white coach” are all pointless because you simply don’t know. Not really sure what’s wrong with the opinion of “being black has had an impact but can’t say how much”. Acknowledges the issue without being overly cynical.
He’s going to be calling plays under his offence in Washington. If he has a stellar season and then he isn’t picked up as a head coach, then this debate is definitely worth revisiting.
But - having read the posts the last few pages - I don’t think anyone has denied the above may be happening. Just that a) it’s not reasonable to assume he solely hasn’t been hired because he’s black and b) you can’t say for sure how much him being black is the reason. All the hypotheticals about “what do you think if you had to guess?” Or “what would have happened to a white coach” are all pointless because you simply don’t know. Not really sure what’s wrong with the opinion of “being black has had an impact but can’t say how much”. Acknowledges the issue without being overly cynical.
He’s going to be calling plays under his offence in Washington. If he has a stellar season and then he isn’t picked up as a head coach, then this debate is definitely worth revisiting.
Not because he couldn't get a job.
Some interesting points and you are correct about looking for reasons why you shouldn't hire someone as opposed to Reasons why you should. But where you are wrong as that I DO know that it wouldn't happen in the hypothetical white EB situation. Because in the entire history of the NFL, a white OC coach with that amount of success at that senior a level has never been humiliated in that way to the best of my knowledge. The best counter example someone has come up with is Zimmer, who was nowhere near being a double Super Bowl champion coordinator. Now if you want me to believe that there's never been a white head coach who doesn't interview well or who has personal issues, then I'm sorry, I don't think Bienemy is the worst human being to ever try and get a HC job. I mean if he interviews that badly, how did he get the OC job? You think they just give those out like free sweets at these billion dollar organisations? Come on.
The issue with having to 'prove' himself at Washington is that it's a bad team with a bad QB. Nagy never called plays and didn't have to prove himself. Pederson never called plays and didn't have to prove himself. Every coach associated in any nebulous way with Andy or Pat gets better jobs, Kingsbury, Kafka, Nagy, Pederson etc. But not Bienemy.
Dude, he's literally alleging discrimination in NFL hiring practices. Come on.
Again it's not because he couldn't get a job, it's because he thinks that in two particular case the franchises organized sham interviews, which could be true but shouldn't be used by you to claim that all and every black coordinator that doesn't get a job is being discriminated on the base of race. Surely you see the difference between recognizing that discrimination is a thing and also recognizing it's not the only reason behind not hiring someone?
Oh, is Mahomes far and away the greatest quarterback of all time? Maybe he is, I dunno. But you know, there's these little engines that could called Tom Brady and peak Aaron Rodgers. You can put their resumes up against Pat's pretty easily and their OCs got HC job after HC job, despite the fact that it must have been pretty easy to run offenses with those guys at the helm.
I'm talking about very successful black coordinators not getting HC jobs. Please point to where I said anything about 'every' black coordinator.
You said that THE reason EB didn't get a HC job was because HE was black. Unless he is the only black black successful coordinator then that point applies to all succesful black coordinators. Now the issue is that many of them got jobs before him Flores, Lynn, Wilks, Ryan or Bowles are recent examples.
I could understand your point if we didn't have a handful of successful black coordinators getting HC jobs in the past five years which is the period during which Bienemy has been in the HC interview/speculation carousel and where he lost to some of these black coordinators.
The other poster put it perfectly (before saying some other stuff that I disagreed with). They are looking for reasons to not hire you (for the most part subconsciously, I hope that in this day and age they're not all cackling Klansmen in the ownership ranks but who knows?) rather than reasons to hire you. Yes, a vanishingly small number have gotten HC jobs and then fired quicker than comparable white counterparts (people have done research on this).
But the few guys who got given a temporary shot perhaps didn't have the factors that would automatically disqualify them. They were 'clean', so to speak. Those same factors would not automatically disqualify a white coach as successful, or even less succesful than Bienemy, that is the point. That is why race is the primary factor, because you do not have equality when people are looking at why they shouldn't hire you when with someone else they are looking at why they should. The standards that you have to meet are different.
I mean people here are disingenuosly bringing up his arrests from 30 years ago. Did that stop Vrabel getting a gig, with his arrests for assault and theft in his youth? Why is that relevant? Why is a bad interview seemingly relevant to every organisation when his track record suggests he can do the job? Joe Judge was elevated from a position coach to a head coach (bypassing coordinator: has a black coach ever been so fortunate?!) apparently because he knew Belichick and he 'interviewed well'. The problem is that he was rubbish at being a head coach.
Bieniemy has had the number one offense in the league nearly every year he has been at the helm in KC. 'Well it's because of Reid' - Reid has had his most successful period with EB as his OC. Not with Nagy or Pederson who got jobs (and Nagy was terrible). 'Well it's because of Mahomes' - not held against Hackett, McDaniels and dozens of other people.
It's a mess and it's sad.
Let's make it very short, you are forgetting the human side of the equation. Nagy or Perderson getting HC jobs doesn't mean that Bienemy should have one and Bienemy not having a HC job doesn't mean that others should not have one.
As an example if I look at O'Connell compared to Bienemy the reason why one got a HC job and the other didn't isn't the playcalling experience since KOC had none. But when you listen to the both of them and when you hear about how they are as people, you get why one got a HC job quickly and the other didn't. Being a very good coordinator doesn't mean that you have the personality and ability to be a very good HC, also Reid is fooling no one he is the one designing plays.
As an example if I look at O'Connell compared to Bienemy the reason why one got a HC job and the other didn't isn't the playcalling experience since KOC had none. But when you listen to the both of them and when you hear about how they are as people, you get why one got a HC job quickly and the other didn't. Being a very good coordinator doesn't mean that you have the personality and ability to be a very good HC, also Reid is fooling no one he is the one designing plays.
When you 'listen to them and you hear how they are as people?' Please elaborate
Bienemy isn't very talkative and he is a tough coach, he used to be on the Vikings staff and while he was seen as a very competent coach, he was also considered as an old school type of coach. On the other end KOC is a talkative coach, more of a positive mindset kind of coach.
Ok, different approaches but the results as coordinators are essentially the same.
By the way, Nick Wright did a good segment on this in yesterday's FTF. It's personal to him because he knows Bieniemy so that colours his view, but I agreed with a lot of what he said. I urge people to listen to it because I think he underscores the problem in the NFL.
Pretty irrelevant, a good coordinator does not equal a good HC.
Of course it is relevant, it is good coordinators that are most often made HCs (unless you are Joe Judge and you know Bill Belichick). The fact that many good coordinators make poor head coaches is in fact irrelevant because there is no way to know whether someone will be a good HC unless and until they are made a HC. Coordinator is a different job but your track record in that position is the only real on-field evidence the employer has and it is the most senior position outside of HC.
It's the approaches that matters because you are in charge of managing an entire team, you are at the helm of everything. And it's also worth mentioning that Andy Reid is still the one designing plays and deciding which packages are used on a weekly basis. Bienemy may be a very good coordinator for Reid but whether he is a good HC candidate depends entirely on what he is outside of Andy Reid's system and how his personality fits with being at the head of the entire operation.
That's why most coordinators are in fact bad NFL HC, that's why teams shouldn't just hire a HC because he has been working under someone highly respected and his side of the ball has done very well.
Also yesterday you asked which NFL winning coordinator hasn't been given a HC job, Carmichael Jr.
I think it’s entirely possible that there are very valid and legitimate reasons for Bienemy not having gotten a hc job yet. I also think it’s entirely possible that racism is part of the equation. A black man would likely not receive the same benefit of doubt a white man would.
So, to change the subject, how do we see the Mock Draft playing out?
Will somebody trade up to the number 1 slot? Think the Colts might be the best bet, would allow the Bears to still pick probably their top target.
Will somebody trade up to the number 1 slot? Think the Colts might be the best bet, would allow the Bears to still pick probably their top target.
In general I agree and in some case it could be the reason. The one thing about Bienemy that perplexes me and points to something else is the Texans, they are on their 4th black HC since 2020 and the world knows that this family has a dubious history with racism.
Colts or Texans will move up I think
Going round in circles but again Nagy and Pederson did not have to prove anything outside of Reid system. And the only way to know if EB is a good HC is to make him a HC. Nothing else is fully instructive.
Re Carmichael Jr, again totally different, he actually declined to interview for the Saints HC job. In the Nick Wright bit I mentioned he goes through all the OCs that have appeared in the SB over the past few seasons and what jobs they got.
Maybe it is best to do what this poster has just done and move on to the draft. I don't think we'll get agreement here even though we're not totally at odds.
Nagy, Pederson and Bienemy are different human beings. Also Nagy was a bad hire and cautionary tale for GMs.
It's probably best to leave it there since for some strange reason, you refuse to acknowledge the fact that you are talking about different people.
Yes, a black person and two white people. With a white person it is assumed that they are smart enough to run the whole team even if they are not. A black candidate has to prove it somehow other than through his prior work.
Yup, the entirety of their personalities and history is their skin color.
Which one? There’s thousands!
I don’t know if there’s a QB here that is such an obvious target that you feel the need to pay up to go get him when you could grab a guy that’s in the same tier. But that’s looking at it from afar without knowing who the relevant FOs are smitten with. One of the guys in the top tier (Young, Stroud) could easily be jumped by a tier 2 guy (Levis, A Rich) as well. It’s kind of a weird class at the top of both the QB and WR positions.
The Texans shouldn't be moving up, they can have their pick of Young or Stroud at #2 - they might be thinking about it if they'll evaluate one of them way higher than the other but they really shouldn't imo. The Colts might indeed move to #1 but Jim Irsay has been pretty stupid with his comments about liking Young. #4 would also be an excellent spot for the Bears to land on, given that there doesn't seem to be much between Jalen Carter or Will Anderson - they can have their pick of whichever one is left right there. There also seems to be a lot of noise about Richardson going in the top 10.
Other than that, seems to be a heavy D-line / O-line and CB draft class in the first round. Witherspoon, Gonzalez, Porter, Ringo, Smith, Ricks, ... all look excellent prospects. I think a few teams might also trade up for one of the top WRs given the lack of depth of the WR free agency class this offseason. On the other hand, I think teams will wait on RBs given how freaking deep this class is. Only Bijan might be a borderline first rounder imo (Bills at 27, Cinci 28, Eagles 30).
Other than that, seems to be a heavy D-line / O-line and CB draft class in the first round. Witherspoon, Gonzalez, Porter, Ringo, Smith, Ricks, ... all look excellent prospects. I think a few teams might also trade up for one of the top WRs given the lack of depth of the WR free agency class this offseason. On the other hand, I think teams will wait on RBs given how freaking deep this class is. Only Bijan might be a borderline first rounder imo (Bills at 27, Cinci 28, Eagles 30).
Which one? There’s thousands!
I don’t know if there’s a QB here that is such an obvious target that you feel the need to pay up to go get him when you could grab a guy that’s in the same tier. But that’s looking at it from afar without knowing who the relevant FOs are smitten with. One of the guys in the top tier (Young, Stroud) could easily be jumped by a tier 2 guy (Levis, A Rich) as well. It’s kind of a weird class at the top of both the QB and WR positions.
Good point
I think this may be the first draft in recent memory that there isn't a truly "outstanding" candidate everyone is raving about.
I wonder how the RB market will go, I'm hoping the Niners don't waste the obligatory 3rd on RB fail.
Might not be the worst idea for the Cowboys to cut Zeke, tag Pollard for $10m, then draft a 4th round RB who can take over in Year 2 when they let go of Pollard as well. I'm not sure how much money they can save by getting rid of Zeke at this point, but these moves would solve their RB issues in barely 1 or 2 seasons imo. The best move might even be to let go of both Pollard and Zeke and just trust a rookie RB (or two), but they won't do that.
Also, Daniel Jones asking for $45m a year while they can tag him for $32m just makes no sense.
Two less successful guys under Reid get multiple chances because of their 'personalities'
Nagy is now likely to take over from Reid despite his failure in Chicago.
Let's leave it, eh? You have your view and I have mine. But please don't pretend there aren't other people saying what I'm saying and that what I'm saying is somehow strange.
Nagy got one chance, Pederson got a chance from his former employee and won the Superbowl which logically puts him in a better spot than almost anyone else.
And the reports are that Nagy could be a top candidate for the head coaching job in 3 years, not that he is likely to get anything. And I'm pretending nothing, I stated that there are other reasons than skin color for someone to not get a job and you keep denying that, so there is no point continuing that conversation.
Not what I've said at all, don't misrepresent me.