NFL 2023

[P-Ro]

A list of possible reasons why Eric Bieniemy has not been given a head coaching gig:

1. He's the OC for a team who's whole scheme is mapped out by Andy Reid, who also calls the plays and the offense is led by one of the greatest QBs of all time. It's therefore pretty difficult to really ascertain what Bieniemy has brought to the table. His impact can only really be judged after he leaves and it speaks volumes that Chiefs fans aren't bothered at all by him leaving. In fact they're only annoyed he's leaving and they don't get a compensatory 3rd round pick.

2. He is reported to not have the greatest relationship with his offense. They respect him but don't have a warm relationship with him either. Reid is the good cop and he's the bad cop. I'm not sure there are many teams who are looking for a hard-ass to be their coach.

3. When given a say over the play calling in the AFCCG last year he allegedly proceeded to have a tantrum on the radio when being overruled by Reid and spent the whole of the half time break in a shouting contest with Mahomes. The Chiefs subsequently collapsed in the second half. The hit piece done on this event was a bit over dramatic but I'm sure these stories filter back to the hiring teams of other Franchises.

4. He might just not be good at interviews. I know I don't interview well, despite me being very competent at the job I have and would probably be good enough for the job I'm going for. Given the amount of interviews he's had with no success it's hard to think that he's coming out of the interview room having aced it.

5. He's black. It's probably a contributing factor and there is an unconscious bias against people of colour coaching in the NFL. But if you come to the conclusion that he's not a HC solely because he's black then you must be very cynical.

 

[P-Ro]

#2 remains one of the most comically bad plays I have ever seen

Honestly, number 1 should have been the Texans converting the last minute 2 point conversion on the final day. That and then showing their fans in the stadium with their palms glued to their foreheads.

 

[altodevil]

Good post P-ro

 

[Andrade]

A list of possible reasons why Eric Bieniemy has not been given a head coaching gig:

1. He's the OC for a team who's whole scheme is mapped out by Andy Reid, who also calls the plays and the offense is led by one of the greatest QBs of all time. It's therefore pretty difficult to really ascertain what Bieniemy has brought to the table. His impact can only really be judged after he leaves and it speaks volumes that Chiefs fans aren't bothered at all by him leaving. In fact they're only annoyed he's leaving and they don't get a compensatory 3rd round pick.

2. He is reported to not have the greatest relationship with his offense. They respect him but don't have a warm relationship with him either. Reid is the good cop and he's the bad cop. I'm not sure there are many teams who are looking for a hard-ass to be their coach.

3. When given a say over the play calling in the AFCCG last year he allegedly proceeded to have a tantrum on the radio when being overruled by Reid and spent the whole of the half time break in a shouting contest with Mahomes. The Chiefs subsequently collapsed in the second half. The hit piece done on this event was a bit over dramatic but I'm sure these stories filter back to the hiring teams of other Franchises.

4. He might just not be good at interviews. I know I don't interview well, despite me being very competent at the job I have and would probably be good enough for the job I'm going for. Given the amount of interviews he's had with no success it's hard to think that he's coming out of the interview room having aced it.

5. He's black. It's probably a contributing factor and there is an unconscious bias against people of colour coaching in the NFL. But if you come to the conclusion that he's not a HC solely because he's black then you must be very cynical.

1. Wasn't a problem for Nagy or Pederson under Reid. And OK, they had Reid and not Mahomes but they also didn't have the number one offense in the league or Super Bowl rings.

2. What is the actual evidence of this though? Some 'journalism'? Does Belichick have a 'warm relationship' with his players? If EB was that toxic, he wouldn't have lasted as long in the job as he has and the team would not have been as successful as it has been. People can minimise his contribution all they want but the OC is an incredibly important multifaceted role, he must be doing something right.

3. Speculation, but even if true, I'm sure people in high level, pressure filled, billion dollar sport are shouting at each other behind closed doors on occasion Brady said that Belichick used to yell at him all the time. BTW, that hit piece that you reference was debunked as garbage, I'm pretty sure.

4. I ask again, where's the white example? Are there no white coaches who don't interview well? Or is is just Bienemy?

5. It's not cynicism and it is because he is black. The point is not to prove that Bienemy is a perfect person. Maybe there is some truth in all the things you've said. Maybe Reid does everything and he does nothing. Maybe he is a hard ass. Maybe he doesn't interview well. Maybe he doesn't have a warm relationship with the players. But none of those things would matter, or at least not matter as much if he was white. Ergo, the reason he doesn't have a head coaching gig, as a TWO TIME SUPER BOWL CHAMPION OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR, is because he is black. I'm not sure why people simply can't see the logic of what I'm trying to say.

 

[P-Ro]

1. Wasn't a problem for Nagy or Pederson under Reid. And OK, they had Reid and not Mahomes but they also didn't have the number one offense in the league or Super Bowl rings.

2. What is the actual evidence of this though? Some 'journalism'? Does Belichick have a 'warm relationship' with his players? If EB was that toxic, he wouldn't have lasted as long in the job as he has and the team would not have been as successful as it has been. People can minimise his contribution all they want but the OC is an incredibly important multifaceted role, he must be doing something right.

3. Speculation, but even if true, I'm sure people in high level, pressure filled, billion dollar sport are shouting at each other behind closed doors on occasion Brady said that Belichick used to yell at him all the time. BTW, that hit piece that you reference was debunked as garbage, I'm pretty sure.

4. I ask again, where's the white example? Are there no white coaches who don't interview well? Or is is just Bienemy?

5. It's not cynicism and it is because he is black. The point is not to prove that Bienemy is a perfect person. Maybe there is some truth in all the things you've said. Maybe Reid does everything and he does nothing. Maybe he is a hard ass. Maybe he doesn't interview well. Maybe he doesn't have a warm relationship with the players. But none of those things would matter, or at least not matter as much if he was white. Ergo, the reason he doesn't have a head coaching gig, as a TWO TIME SUPER BOWL CHAMPION OFFENSIVE COORDINATOR, is because he is black. I'm not sure why people simply can't see the logic of what I'm trying to say.

You literally talk as though things are black and white. They aren't. Why did the Texans just hire Demeco Ryan's when Bieniemy and a whole bunch of perfectly less qualified white coaches were available.

 

[altodevil]

He's also been arrested multiple times. There's plenty reasons for him not to have been given a HC gig. Don't understand the uproar. Of course racism is, whether unbiased or not, still alive and well in the NFL. Just look at Jim Caldwell. Eric isn't an example though. Not in my book.

 

[calodo2003]

He's also been arrested multiple times. There's plenty reasons for him not to have been given a HC gig. Don't understand the uproar. Of course racism is, whether unbiased or not, still alive and well in the NFL. Just look at Jim Caldwell. Eric isn't an example though. Not in my book.

What were his arrests for?

 

[P-Ro]

What were his arrests for?

One harassment case, few driving and DUI arrests in there too. I didn't mention it in my points because they were all in the 90s apart from one DUI in 2001 so it's quite a stretch to give them as reasons why when he's been a good boy for over 20 years.

From his wiki on the harassment arrest:

On September 27, 1993, Bieniemy was arrested in Boulder, Colorado, for allegedly harassing a female parking attendant. According to the police report, while with his friends, Bieniemy put his hand on the attendant's neck, startling her. She told police ,"[23] that Bieniemy and his friends took off their pants and began urinating nearby. Bieniemy was also named in an outstanding warrant on a charge of driving with a suspended license. As a result of this incident, Bieniemy was banned from the University of Colorado Boulder campus for one year.

 

[Andrade]

He's also been arrested multiple times. There's plenty reasons for him not to have been given a HC gig. Don't understand the uproar. Of course racism is, whether unbiased or not, still alive and well in the NFL. Just look at Jim Caldwell. Eric isn't an example though. Not in my book.

This is a perfect illustration of what I'm talking about. When was the last time he was arrested? Last week was it?

 

[Andrade]

You literally talk as though things are black and white. They aren't. Why did the Texans just hire Demeco Ryan's when Bieniemy and a whole bunch of perfectly less qualified white coaches were available.

One black coach gets hired for a terrible job (at a franchise that is literally trying to rid itself of the racist tag and so has hired a black coach directly before DR) taking the entire number up to what? three? And all of sudden there's no issue. Well done. I guess Brian Flores must be suing the NFL for a laugh.



By the way, here's a list of Super Bowl winning OCs over the last 10 or so years



Eric Bienemy

Kevin O'Connell

Byron Leftwich

Josh McDaniels

Rick Dennison

Darrell Bevell

Cam Caneron

Kevin Gilbride

Joe Philbin



6 of these men have been given head coaching jobs. 3 have not. I'll let you guess who the sole white guy is that belongs in the latter category.

 

[altodevil]

One black coach gets hired for a terrible job (at a franchise that is literally trying to rid itself of the racist tag and so has hired a black coach directly before DR) taking the entire number up to what? three? And all of sudden there's no issue. Well done. I guess Brian Flores must be suing the NFL for a laugh.



By the way, here's a list of Super Bowl winning OCs over the last 10 or so years



Eric Bienemy

Kevin O'Connell

Byron Leftwich

Josh McDaniels

Rick Dennison

Darrell Bevell

Cam Caneron

Kevin Gilbride

Joe Philbin



6 of these men have been given head coaching jobs. 3 have not. I'll let you guess who the sole white guy is that belongs in the latter category.

Wouldn't it be more illustrative to number those that got a HC gig AFTER they won the Superbowl as an OC?

 

[Andrade]

He's also been arrested multiple times. There's plenty reasons for him not to have been given a HC gig. Don't understand the uproar. Of course racism is, whether unbiased or not, still alive and well in the NFL. Just look at Jim Caldwell. Eric isn't an example though. Not in my book.

You don't understand the uproar because these things don't affect you, I'd respectfully submit.

 

[Andrade]

Wouldn't it be more illustrative to number those that got a HC gig AFTER they won the Superbowl as an OC?

Probably about as illustrative as it would be to bring up arrests from 20 years ago to prove that everything's fine and dandy, I dunno TBH

 

[altodevil]

Are you Eric Bieniemy?

 

[Andrade]

Are you Eric Bieniemy?

Funny. You must be like the other gentleman in thinking that Flores is suing the NFL for the fun of it. The NFL has a systemic problem. It's OK to admit it.

 

[altodevil]

I did admit it - I said that in my post. Are you half-cut right now?

 

[P-Ro]

One black coach gets hired for a terrible job (at a franchise that is literally trying to rid itself of the racist tag and so has hired a black coach directly before DR) taking the entire number up to what? three? And all of sudden there's no issue. Well done. I guess Brian Flores must be suing the NFL for a laugh.



By the way, here's a list of Super Bowl winning OCs over the last 10 or so years



Eric Bienemy

Kevin O'Connell

Byron Leftwich

Josh McDaniels

Rick Dennison

Darrell Bevell

Cam Caneron

Kevin Gilbride

Joe Philbin



6 of these men have been given head coaching jobs. 3 have not. I'll let you guess who the sole white guy is that belongs in the latter category.

I really don't get your whole argument, in fact it just makes no sense whatsoever. I don't think anyone here is disputing that racism has played a part in Eric Bieniemy and other black coaches not getting HC gigs. You however are saying that it is the only reason in Bieniemy's case, despite being given a number of plausible reasons alongside the racism issue. If race is the sole reason why Eric can't get a job then it must stand that there can't ever be a black head coach in the NFL. The racism can't be unique to Bieniemy and not to other past and present black NFL coaches.

 

[P-Ro]

Well I'm looking forward to seeing what Bieniemy does in Washington. Obviously he doesn't have the future hof QB or TE there but it should be fun seeing how similar their offensive schemes are to KC's. If he does well there then he's guaranteed to become a head coach in 2024.

 

[Andrade]

I really don't get your whole argument, in fact it just makes no sense whatsoever. I don't think anyone here is disputing that racism has played a part in Eric Bieniemy and other black coaches not getting HC gigs. You however are saying that it is the only reason in Bieniemy's case, despite being given a number of plausible reasons alongside the racism issue. If race is the sole reason why Eric can't get a job then it must stand that there can't ever be a black head coach in the NFL. The racism can't be unique to Bieniemy and not to other past and present black NFL coaches.

I've explained it numerous times but you haven't read what I've said. Do you think that EB would have been given a HC shot if he was white?

 

[Andrade]

I did admit it - I said that in my post. Are you half-cut right now?

You say the words but you don't get it, with the greatest of respect. Privilege can blind people

 

[P-Ro]

I've explained it numerous times but you haven't read what I've said. Do you think that EB would have been given a HC shot if he was white?

I've read all your posts and every answer is "what about x".

Would EB have been given a job had he been white? Don't know. Maybe?

 

[altodevil]

You say the words but you don't get it, with the greatest of respect. Privilege can blind people

Well I'm black if that changes anything

 

[Andrade]

I've read all your posts and every answer is "what about x".

Would EB have been given a job had he been white? Don't know. Maybe?

The answer is yes, let's not Kid ourselves bro.

 

[Rado_N]

There’s no question the NFL has a race issue, but to say that’s the only reason EB hasn’t got a HC job is pretty ridiculous to be frank.

If it was that simple there’d never be a black HC hired whereas we’ve seen Vance Joseph get a HC job with a pretty shite CV and then manage to keep the job for far too long in spite of being spectacularly shit as it.

Has race played a part in it, I’m sure on some level it probably has, but there’s nuance to the debate and writing off anything else as further proof of racism or privilege is just silly. Albeit also hilarious when unwittingly aimed at a black dude.

 

[Andrade]

Well I'm black if that changes anything

Not really

 

[Andrade]

There’s no question the NFL has a race issue, but to say that’s the only reason EB hasn’t got a HC job is pretty ridiculous to be frank.

If it was that simple there’d never be a black HC hired whereas we’ve seen Vance Joseph get a HC job with a pretty shite CV and then manage to keep the job for far too long in spite of being spectacularly shit as it.

Has race played a part in it, I’m sure on some level it probably has, but there’s nuance to the debate and writing off anything else as further proof of racism or privilege is just silly. Albeit also hilarious when unwittingly aimed at a black dude.

So because a black person says it's not about race that means it's not about race?

I'll ask you the same question. If Eric Bienemy was exactly the same guy with exactly the same CV and exactly the same red flags but white , would he have gotten a HC job by now?

 

[Rado_N]

So because a black person says it's not about race that means it's not about race?

I'll ask you the same question. If Eric Bienemy was exactly the same guy with exactly the same CV and exactly the same red flags but white , would he have gotten a HC job by now?

No, of course not, but you telling that black person that their opinion is shaped by privilege is pretty funny.

There’s no way of knowing the answer to that question, clearly, as much as you’re trying to pretend there is.

 

[Raoul]

Interesting comp but not the same thing. Zimmer won his ring decades ago as a position coach, not a coordinator. And he's a defensive guy. In the modern NFL when everyone is trying to hire an offensive HC (well not everyone but that's certainly the fashion) the fact that EB is the most successful OC in the league and yet is not a head coach is remarkable. Until you realise that the fashion is actually young, white offensive coaches.

The NFL is no different than many other sporting leagues in this regard, including the Premier League. Its just a lingering problem where the power structure of ownership and management have been historically white, therefore most of the coaching candidates with any degree of experience are also white. This is why the Rooney Rule or a more aggressive, updated version of it are needed across the board in all sports.

We've had a couple of threads about applying the Rooney Rule to English football in recent years, including one with a poll.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/should-the-fa-implement-the-rooney-rule.397238/

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/fa-adopting-rooney-rule.435355/

 

[Andrade]

The NFL is no different than many other sporting leagues in this regard, including the Premier League. Its just a lingering problem where the power structure of ownership and management have been historically white, therefore most of the coaching candidates with any degree of experience are also white. This is why the Rooney Rule or a more aggressive, updated version of it are needed across the board in all sports.

We've had a couple of threads about applying the Rooney Rule to English football in recent years, including one with a poll.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/should-the-fa-implement-the-rooney-rule.397238/

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/fa-adopting-rooney-rule.435355/

Yes, it is absolutely not just an NFL problem but it is thrown into stark relief in the NFL because the player group is majority black whilst the coaching and executive levels remain resolutely white. Football (soccer) does indeed have a similar issue, as many frustrated black former players will attest to.

 

[Andrade]

No, of course not, but you telling that black person that their opinion is shaped by privilege is pretty funny.

There’s no way of knowing the answer to that question, clearly, as much as you’re trying to pretend there is.

Perhaps there is no way of knowing for sure, but what's your best guess for the fate of a bizarro world white EB with 2 rings?

 

[Rado_N]

Perhaps there is no way of knowing for sure, but what's your best guess for the fate of a bizarro world white EB with 2 rings?

I literally just said there’s no way of knowing, what’s achieved with mindless speculation based on absolutely zero information?

This is just going around in circles, you’re acting like everyone is arguing there’s no racial bias even though we’ve all acknowledged there is.

 

[Andrade]

I literally just said there’s no way of knowing, what’s achieved with mindless speculation based on absolutely zero information?

This is just going around in circles, you’re acting like everyone is arguing there’s no racial bias even though we’ve all acknowledged there is.

The fact that you won't answer the question is evidence enough. At least the other gent gave an answer.

I haven't said that none of you guys think there is racial bias. I'm pointing out the depth of it. Just because Obama can become the president of the United States, it doesn't mean that he could have done if he'd lived a life exactly like Donald Trump has. So when people talk about other reasons that EB might not be getting a job, I posit that his success would make him a surefire hire (whatever the misgivings) if he wasn't black. It's about the different standards that are applied to different people.

But I guess I've got to leave it there for the sake of the thread, people are free to think whatever they like.

 

[Rado_N]

The fact that you won't answer the question is evidence enough. At least the other gent gave an answer.

Evidence of what, exactly? What are you suggesting?

 

[JPRouve]

Evidence of what, exactly? What are you suggesting?

That you are a racist and wouldn't give EB a job.

 

[RobinLFC]

The fact that you won't answer the question is evidence enough. At least the other gent gave an answer.

I haven't said that none of you guys think there is no racial bias. I'm pointing out the depth of it. Just because Obama can become the president of the United States, it doesn't mean that he could have done if he'd lived a life exactly like Donald Trump has. So when people talk about other reasons that EB might not be getting a job, I posit that his success would make him a surefire hire (whatever the misgivings) if he wasn't black. It's about the different standards that are applied to different people.

But I guess I've got to leave it there for the sake of the thread, people are free to think whatever they like.

But the rest of us are pointing out that you don't have the first clue or indication what the depth of it is. It might be 5% racial bias and 95% other stuff (which has been mentioned in detail about EB), or it might be 95% racial bias and 5% other stuff. Truth is none of us here know which one it is - but I'd say it's likely somewhere in the middle because no situation is ever black & white like you are trying to make it out to be.

 

[Rado_N]

That you are a racist and wouldn't give EB a job.

It certainly seems that way.

 

[JPRouve]

But the rest of us are pointing out that you don't have the first clue or indication what the depth of it is. It might be 5% racial bias and 95% other stuff (which has been mentioned in detail about EB), or it might be 95% racial bias and 5% other stuff. Truth is none of us here know which one it is - but I'd say it's likely somewhere in the middle because no situation is ever black & white like you are trying to make it out to be.

And the other issue is that black head coaches have actually been hired in the past few years and we know that old school white coaches have been largely ostracized. There are racists among owners and likely GMs but not everything is about that, as I said earlier the noise against EB are similar to the ones against Zimmer. And they are different to the noises around Flores or Ryan who have been both hailed as born leaders and unifying figures.

 

[Andrade]

Evidence of what, exactly? What are you suggesting?

That what I'm saying is true. If you think otherwise, all you need to say is, I hypothetically think he would be treated exactly the same and be passed over by the whole league and have to make a lateral move to 'prove' himself (despite being a 2 time SB champ as an OC in league crying out for offensive HCs) even if he was a white coach. But deep down, you know that's BS

 

[Andrade]

But the rest of us are pointing out that you don't have the first clue or indication what the depth of it is. It might be 5% racial bias and 95% other stuff (which has been mentioned in detail about EB), or it might be 95% racial bias and 5% other stuff. Truth is none of us here know which one it is - but I'd say it's likely somewhere in the middle because no situation is ever black & white like you are trying to make it out to be.

Can you name a white two time SB champ OC that can't get a head coaching job? Or, let me get this straight: every white coach that is hired as a head coach cannot possibly have any of the supposed red flags that Bienemy has. Have I got that right?

 

[Andrade]

And the other issue is that black head coaches have actually been hired in the past few years and we know that old school white coaches have been largely ostracized. There are racists among owners and likely GMs but not everything is about that, as I said earlier the noise against EB are similar to the ones against Zimmer. And they are different to the noises around Flores or Ryan who have been both hailed as born leaders and unifying figures.

Flores is suing the league