Neymar joins PSG on a five year deal

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Eddy_JukeZ said:
Do you think Barcelona would still be better than PSG if PSG had Messi?(obviously Barcelona don't have Messi in this hypothetical)
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Peak Barca would beat PSG even if they had Messi. They would be able to control possession and thus reduce the time Messi is on the ball. More than that, they would use pressing to stop PSG from giving the ball to Messi. Messi would still have the quality to make PSG win matches against Barca, but he wouldn't have the opportunity to do so except rarely.

People talk about Barcelona as if they are a collection of stars. When Barca football works, it's an example of great tactics, smart movement, aggressive defending and highly combinative football.
 
serghei said:
He wasn't the decisive factor, just like Messi wasn't the decisive factor in Pep's Barca team. Many people here overestimate the importance of 1 player in such a complex sport as football.

If Neymar was the decisive factor for us beating PSG, was he the decisive factor for losing 0-3 to Juventus and not scoring a goal in 180 mins? Because he was absolute shit vs Juventus.

It doesn't work like that in football. Surprised that quite a few people think that's how football works. Tactics, motivation, team cohesion, team-mate orientation when pressing, things like that count the most.
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You opened another can of worms. Yes. Messi is decisive factor for that Pep Barcelona team. Take Messi out & replace with let say David Silva, you can still have a strong team, but is still containable.
 
serghei said:
Peak Barca would beat PSG even if they had Messi. They would be able to control possession and thus reduce the time Messi is on the ball. More than that, they would use pressing to stop PSG from giving the ball to Messi.

People talk about Barcelona as if they are a collection of stars. When Barca football works, it's an example of great tactics, smart movement, aggressive defending and highly combinative football.
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Peak Barcelona? You mean Pep's Barca? lol

Last season's Barcelona. Are they better than PSG if PSG have Messi?
 
ti vu said:
You opened another can of worms. Yes. Messi is decisive factor for that Pep Barcelona team. Take Messi out & replace with let say David Silva, you can still have a strong team, but is still containable.
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This basically debunks his theory.

There's no way that Barcelona team would be as good with David Silva in place of Messi.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
Peak Barcelona? You mean Pep's Barca? lol

Last season's Barcelona. Are they better than PSG if PSG have Messi?
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Last season Barcelona, no. But last season Barcelona wasn't able to score against Juventus in 180 mins. That's, even more, a proof that 1 player doesn't matter. A motivated Barcelona that who play what they should be playing would beat a PSG that has Messi or Neymar in their team. One player doesn't give you better tactics, or a better way of playing. One player gives you more quality, but only if the team puts him in the position to show that quality.
 
serghei said:
Peak Barca would beat PSG even if they had Messi. They would be able to control possession and thus reduce the time Messi is on the ball. More than that, they would use pressing to stop PSG from giving the ball to Messi. Messi would still have the quality to win PSG matches against Barca, but he wouldn't have the opportunity to do so except rarely.

People talk about Barcelona as if they are a collection of stars. When Barca football works, it's an example of great tactics, smart movement, aggressive defending and highly combinative football.
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Disagree. This PSG has enough quality on ball not to completely fall apart against pressing.

Even that game just now. They only fell apart when they started with stupid tactic by deliberately giving up possession & relied on their defense which is not that good in pure defensive pov. For them to keep possesion, they're more than capable enough to supply their attackers
 
Scrape though 6-5 with Messi and Neymar on your team and then claim you'd have won anyways even if they were on the other side. Brilliant! Even more so when you consider Neymar's performance on the night.
 
ti vu said:
You opened another can of worms. Yes. Messi is decisive factor for that Pep Barcelona team. Take Messi out & replace with let say David Silva, you can still have a strong team, but is still containable.
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Not at all. Messi winning everything with Barca, and nothing with Argentina pretty much clears that. He was not the decisive factor in Barca's huge success. Now, if you mean the decisive player, that's completely different. Of course, he was the most important player, slightly ahead of Xavi.
 
Varun said:
Scrape though 6-5 with Messi and Neymar on your team and then claim you'd have won anyways even if they were on the other side. Brilliant! Even more so when you consider Neymar's performance on the night.
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Don't twist around what I said.

ti vu said:
Disagree. This PSG has enough quality on ball not to completely fall apart against pressing.

Even that game just now. They only fell apart when they started with stupid tactic by deliberately giving up possession & relied on their defense which is not that good in pure defensive pov. For them to keep possesion, they're more than capable enough to supply their attackers
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Barca had no business winning that tie with PSG. They were in horrible form, and PSG looked strong. The only way they could have won it was not by having Neymar or Messi play an amazing game, the tie was already out of reach even if that happened. The only way to come back from 0-4 was to make the team with the advantage doubt themselves.

And they did, they came up on Camp Nou like a small team. Played like a small team, and lost like a small team.

Hell, if Rakitic doesn't lose Meunier for Cavani's goal, we might have gone through in a different way, maybe extra time, or penalties, not even needing Neymar doing something special at the end.

That is why saying Neymar was the decisive factor is not true.
 
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Ecstatic said:
Sure. Neymar is ready to join PSG but - maybe - not interested in joining a Chinese club at this stage of his career: who knows?

So, Money isn't the only one consideration to be taken into account even if it's obvious money plays a key role.

Other considerations:

- Need for change: new country, new language...
- A new challenge: to be the guy who makes PSG winning his 1st Champions League
- The opportunity to be the greatest player in the history of the French League and PSG
- The desire to be treated as the mega star of his team
- He would join 5 Brazilian players, including his best friend in the football universe (Dani Alves)
- He joins a club with unrivalled (?) means and a high ambition: a "Galactico Project" as would say Chester



Neymar is no longer a child: I assume he is capable to disagree with father.

Depending on the period/region, family businesses were commonplace.

Father or stranger, an alignment of interests is always possible




:wenger:
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According to every journalist, ITKs and souces, his father clearly pilots his career. Neymar has very little say. Make of that what you will.
 
serghei said:
Don't twist around what I said.
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Your post comes across as elitist tbf. You've insinuated that a motivated Barca always beats PSG. Superior tactics, motivation etc etc as if the other team doesn't have any role to play in the result and its only a case of whether Barca turn up or not. Even Messi in that PSG side is cast aside saying your tactics would just magically make him a non factor. Someone should have told these magical tactics to all these world class managers and their incredible supporting staff who tried and failed to control the genius that is Messi all these years.
 
serghei said:
Not at all. Messi winning everything with Barca, and nothing with Argentina pretty much clears that. He was not the decisive factor in Barca's huge success.
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This is a very poor argument. Take Messi out of that Argentina team & they would absolutely struggle (they're now). That team is full of individuals, but very unbalanced without a competent coach for long. Without Messi, that team couldn't go as far as they did.

Barcelona is strong with that core of players but unlike international football, clubs have transfer to build team to counter that just fine. Without Messi as cutting edge, Real Madrid would have overtaken that Barcelona for good.
 
Varun said:
Your post comes across as elitist tbf. You've insinuated that a motivated Barca beats PSG always. Superior tactics, motivation etc etc as if the other team doesn't have any role to play in the result and its only a case of whether Barca turn up or not. Even Messi in that PSG side is cast aside saying your tactics would just magically make him a non factor. Someone should have told these magical tactics to all these world class managers and their incredible supporting staff who tried and failed to control the genius that is Messi all these years.
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Not always. PSG have the chance to improve their tactics. That doesn't mean signing stars. This doesn't solve the problem just like that. You get Neymar and suddenly you're a favorite for the CL, like some posters here said. PSG managed to play like Granada on Camp Nou while having already a team full of stars.

Messi, if you follow him closely in games, is a decisive player only when the team he is playing for has the tools to make great use of him. If that team doesn't possess those tools, he is not as effective, see Argentina. We live in a time of football where you can't do it on your own anymore. The tactics have evolved to a point that every good team has the means to stop a great player.

If you believe the difference between teams is only down to the players that play in those teams, then you are tossing a side a big big part of what makes a team better than another.
 
ti vu said:
This is a very poor argument. Take Messi out of that Argentina team & they would absolutely struggle (they're now). That team is full of individuals, but very unbalanced without a competent coach for long. Without Messi, that team couldn't go as far as they did.

Barcelona is strong with that core of players but unlike international football, clubs have transfer to build team to counter that just fine. Without Messi as cutting edge, Real Madrid would have overtaken that Barcelona for good.
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They struggle not because they don't have Messi. But because they are not playing as a team. The argument makes sense. A player, any player, can't replace the more complex aspects of football, like mentality, tactics, team-cohesion, hunger for winning etc. Take Barcelona. From treble 2 years ago with the same players, to 1 Copa this season while getting beaten 4-0 and 3-0 by teams we dispatched with ease in 2014-15. Neymar, Messi, Suarez, contrary to some people's beliefs here, they are not the decisive elements that make a team work.

Look at Madrid with Benitez, vs Madrid with Zidane. Same players. It's not the players that are the most important. All top teams have amazing players anyway. Many here think probably that if you exchange Neymar with Coutinho, the team can't be better, regardless of what tactics are involved.
 
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serghei said:
They struggle not because they don't have Messi. But because they are not playing as a team. The argument makes sense. A player, any player, can't replace the more complex aspects of football, like mentality, tactics, team-cohesion, hunger for winning etc. Take Barcelona. From treble 2 years ago with the same players, to 1 Copa this season while getting beaten 4-0 and 3-0 by teams we dispatched with ease in 2014-15.
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The point is when the stake is high, Messi is the cutting edge. Take Messi out, more often than not, Barcelona would be more down to Earth. Compete again Real Madrid of that period &a other teams in CL. They can turn the table on a Barcelona without Messi.

Messi has declined to certain extend that is for sure, that's where you forgot to take account of. And a slowed down Messi still cast shadow on Neymar which slowed down a team as a whole. Neymar in a team tailored to him, would do better than he's now for that reason.
 
ti vu said:
The point is when the stake is high, Messi is the cutting edge. Take Messi out, more often than not, Barcelona would be more down to Earth. Compete again Real Madrid of that period &a other teams in CL. They can turn the table on a Barcelona without Messi.
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Pep's Barcelona dominates the era without Messi, but not at such a distance from the other teams. That's something I would agree with.
 
serghei said:
Not always. PSG have the chance to improve their tactics. That doesn't mean signing stars. This doesn't solve the problem just like that. You get Neymar and suddenly you're a favorite for the CL, like some posters here said. PSG managed to play like Granada on Camp Nou while having already a team full of stars.

Messi, if you follow him closely in games, is a decisive player only when the team he is playing for has the tools to make great use of him. If that team doesn't possess those tools, he is not as effective, see Argentina. We live in a time of football where you can't do it on your own anymore. The tactics have evolved to a point that every good team has the means to stop a great player.

If you believe the difference between teams is only down to the players that play in those teams, then you are tossing a side a big big part of what makes a team better than another.
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Why are you assuming PSG wouldn't know how to use Messi? As you admit now, PSG could and really would have different tactics, do you realise that insinuating a motivated Barca beats PSG anyways is bollocks?

I see a desire to simply sweep under the carpet the fact that your all conquering team had absolutely world class players all over the pitch. No one's dim enough to believe tactics play no role but your attempts to class this as a tactical masterclass that had little to do with the players is downright funny tbh. If this was the case, the guy you hold responsible for that wouldn't have spent half a billion or whatever he has on an already top squad at City with feck all to show for it.

As an aside, not sure what your point is about PSG playing as Granada at nou camp. You did the same in the other leg.
 
serghei said:
Pep's Barcelona dominates the era without Messi, but not at such a distance from the other teams. That's something I would agree with.
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Without Messi, United dominates during Pep's years.
 
Varun said:
Why are you assuming PSG wouldn't know how to use Messi? As you admit now, PSG could and really would have different tactics, do you realise that insinuating a motivated Barca beats PSG anyways is bollocks?

I see a desire to simply sweep under the carpet the fact that your all conquering team had absolutely world class players all over the pitch. No one's dim enough to believe tactics play no role but your attempts to class this as a tactical masterclass that had little to do with the players is downright funny tbh. If this was the case, the guy you hold responsible for that wouldn't have spent half a billion or whatever he has on an already top squad at City with feck all to show for it.

As an aside, not sure what your point is about PSG playing as Granada at nou camp. You did the same in the other leg.
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PSG don't even need different tactics. They are a possession team but lack goals from wide, you give them Messi or Neymar and you create a monster.
 
serghei said:
Messi, if you follow him closely in games, is a decisive player only when the team he is playing for has the tools to make great use of him. If that team doesn't possess those tools, he is not as effective, see Argentina. We live in a time of football where you can't do it on your own anymore. The tactics have evolved to a point that every good team has the means to stop a great player.

If you believe the difference between teams is only down to the players that play in those teams, then you are tossing a side a big big part of what makes a team better than another.
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Excuse me - Messi, probably the greatest player to have played the game (even if you argue that, he's unquestionably top 10) is only effective because because of Barcelona's 'team tools'. He would he would be a great player in any team - of course individuals make a difference, that's what great players do, that what makes them great. Moments of pure magic, individual magic. Messi and Neymar have that in spades.

Talking of spades, stop digging. Your argument is flawed.
 
JPRouve said:
PSG don't even need different tactics. They are a possession team but lack goals from wide, you give them Messi or Neymar and you create a monster.
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The tactics bit was just in reference to him talking in isolation about Barca and their tactics as if they're playing traffic cones.
 
Varun said:
The tactics bit was just in reference to him talking in isolation about Barca and their tactics as if they're playing traffic cones.
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I know, I just think that even that argument shouldn't be entertained. Outside of Barcelona, PSG are the team that wouldn't need to change anything for Messi or Neymar. Also the 6-1 wasn't due to tactics but mental, the players didn't follow the tactic because they were scared(Barcelona's PR got into their heads) and Rabiot was sick.
 
Varun said:
Why are you assuming PSG wouldn't know how to use Messi? As you admit now, PSG could and really would have different tactics, do you realise that insinuating a motivated Barca beats PSG anyways is bollocks?

I see a desire to simply sweep under the carpet the fact that your all conquering team had absolutely world class players all over the pitch. No one's dim enough to believe tactics play no role but your attempts to class this as a tactical masterclass that had little to do with the players is downright funny tbh. If this was the case, the guy you hold responsible for that wouldn't have spent half a billion or whatever he has on an already top squad at City with feck all to show for it.

As an aside, not sure what your point is about PSG playing as Granada at nou camp. You did the same in the other leg.
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Several things.

1. Barcelona is the best platform for Messi, and nowhere else Messi would be as good as in Barcelona. He is a Barcelona La Masia player and has had the opportunity to play in this style for all his career almost. So, yes, Messi at PSG would be less effective than Messi at Barcelona. That's obvious imo.

2. I don't sweep under the carpet that our team had absolutely world class players all over the pitch. But if you look at those players, most of them were created by Barcelona. Xavi, Messi, Iniesta, all of these players were created at Barcelona. So, yes, the philosophy of the club is the greatest asset FC Barcelona has. Not the individual quality of some players who might not even be what they are without that philosophy. It's funny that you speak about Messi as if he just landed at Barcelona from space. He is a personification of Barcelona's philosophy and culture.

3. Pep has built the greatest team ever according to many many specialists. What he does at City has no importance regarding his Barca days, except one. And that conclusion only strengthen's my idea that Barcelona's culture cannot be replicated with money. Not by City by having the manager of that Barcelona team, but not the platform. Pep failing at City so far, trying to implement Barca's style from ground zero at a different team, only goes to show that what Barcelona has can't be bought with money that easily, and certainly goes beyond just having world class players. Many of those world class players Barca has are the golden rewards of their club philosophy anyway.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Excuse me - Messi, probably the greatest player to have played the game (even if you argue that, he's unquestionably top 10) is only effective because because of Barcelona's 'team tools'. He would he would be a great player in any team - of course individuals make a difference, that's what great players do, that what makes them great. Moments of pure magic, individual magic. Messi and Neymar have that in spades.

Talking of spades, stop digging. Your argument is flawed.
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Never said that. He would be a great player everywhere, just not as huge as at Barca. Messi and Barcelona are a perfect match.

JPRouve said:
Without Messi, United dominates during Pep's years.
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Not a chance. Messi doesn't help you get the ball from the best possession team of all time. You'd have to take 1-2 players from that team on top of Messi for United to beat them. Xavi, Iniesta, even Dani Alves, David Villa.
 
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I hope Neymar joins PSG, for a change it would be great to watch Barca losing one of their best player after tapping up so many players in the past.
 
Z_Wolf said:
Speaking of bias, I was recently attacked relentlessly on a Barca forum for suggesting PSG wouldn't let Verratti join Barcelona. One fella even asked me which club I supported to which I replied United to which he called me "PL fanboy" and then minutes later I was banned. lol
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Things are tensed around there because people hoped Neymar would become a Barca legend, and join the likes of Rivaldo, Messi, Ronaldinho. I'm sure you can understand that.
 
JPRouve said:
I know, I just think that even that argument shouldn't be entertained. Outside of Barcelona, PSG are the team that wouldn't need to change anything for Messi or Neymar. Also the 6-1 wasn't due to tactics but mental, the players didn't follow the tactic because they were scared(Barcelona's PR got into their heads) and Rabiot was sick.
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Yeah, add the brilliance and output of Neymar out wide to go with their already strong core and they go up a notch without even changing anything.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
This basically debunks his theory.

There's no way that Barcelona team would be as good with David Silva in place of Messi.
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Spain won Euro/WC/Euro with David Villa/Silva in place of Messi. Barcelona would have been fine. Not as good obviously, but still good enough to win a lot
 
Varun said:
Yeah, add the brilliance and output of Neymar out wide to go with their already strong core and they go up a notch without even changing anything.
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Possibly. But they'd have to win the CL, or else no one's gonna care much. It's not such a great thing to go to a team that competes in a weak league, because the only way you'll get the attention of the world is by winning the CL. And that's pretty hard to do.
 
serghei said:
Several things.

1. Barcelona is the best platform for Messi, and nowhere else Messi would be as good as in Barcelona. He is a Barcelona La Masia player and has had the opportunity to play in this style for all his career almost. So, yes, Messi at PSG would be less effective than Messi at Barcelona. That's obvious imo.

2. I don't sweep under the carpet that our team had absolutely world class players all over the pitch. But if you look at those players, most of them were created by Barcelona. Xavi, Messi, Iniesta, all of these players were created at Barcelona. So, yes, the philosophy of the club is the greatest asset FC Barcelona has. Not the individual quality of some players who might not even be what they are without that philosophy. It's funny that you speak about Messi as if he just landed at Barcelona from space. He is a personification of Barcelona's philosophy and culture.

3. Pep has built the greatest team ever according to many many specialists. What he does at City has no importance regarding his Barca days, except one. And that conclusion only strengthen's my idea that Barcelona's culture cannot be replicated with money. Not by City by having the manager of that Barcelona team, but not the platform. Pep failing at City so far, trying to implement Barca's style from ground zero at a different team, only goes to show that what Barcelona has can't be bought with money that easily, and certainly goes beyond just having world class players. Many of those world class players Barca has are the golden rewards of their club philosophy anyway.
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You gotta stop and smell the roses man. Your all conquering side was a result of a lot of things coming together at once. World class players, a top manager and his system that got the absolute most out of them. All this Barca philosophy shite is nonsense otherwise you'd still be the dominant force before and after that period unless your philosophy emerged out of the blue and disappeared magically once Pep left and some of the top players either left or declined.
 
serghei said:
Possibly. But they'd have to win the CL, or else no one's gonna care much. It's not such a great thing to go to a team that competes in a weak league, because the only way you'll get the attention of the world is by winning the CL. And that's pretty hard to do.
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Yup, agreed.
 
Varun said:
You gotta stop and smell the roses man. Your all conquering side was a result of a lot of things coming together at once. World class players, a top manager and his system that got the absolute most out of them. All this Barca philosophy shite is nonsense otherwise you'd still be the dominant force before and after that period unless your philosophy emerged out of the blue and disappeared magically once Pep left and some of the top players either left or declined.
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Barca's ideal is to make that happen more often than 'once in a lifetime'. It's a better ideal than most teams have. And I as a fan, would rather follow that, than everything else.
 
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