LVG is the origin of possession football. Pep, Enrique, Xavi all learn from him. You can check the succession tree and see where ETH learn it from.
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Managers and players are finite. The best players are not interested in us and the best managers in the world are in our 3 main rivals in the league.
So you've already answered yourself. When they leave or decline we'll have our chance (if we get top players and managers).
This is just what every other team in England felt about us for 20 years with Fergie. And we know when it stopped.
Having passive possession is not dominating.
But none of those play exactly like him. Are you suggesting that just because LvG failed, all those who implement possession based approach would fail?
To me Man Utd fired LVG is just like arsenal sacked Arteta last season because he finished 8th. Anyway this time people may have more patience.
Learning from him and making it your own is different. Those 3 have their team constantly attacking, and every game, you have the feeling they can score at least 3 goals.
When LVG was in charge, all we can hope for was having 70% of possession and that’s about it.
LVG failed because people thought his football was boring. LVG failed to implement his philosophy in Man Utd because he is fired. He did that in Bayern. He was in the middle of it. Anyway I don't want to repeat what I had said in another thread. Good.luck with another experience and hope ETG will have the support this time.
It's not but we've seen many Dutch managers crash and burn in the PL with their own iterations of possession based football. Hiddink was successful in his two interim spells but generally Pep is the only manager who has implemented possession based football with sustained success in England. The high octane pressing football of Klopp, Tuchel, Potter, Viera, Hasenhuttel and Leeds under Bielsa (though Marsh plays the same and is a student of Rangknick) and funny enough Pochettino before his PSG role are what have taken England by storm bar Guardiolas style in recent years.
Ten Hag is more aggressive and I like that about him. It's the polar opposite of say Frank De Boer's slower style which almost mirrored his old coach LVGs style. Hag could work out in England but he's a bigger risk than many care to admit
Too right. He got it from the godfather Johan Cryuff but he's the originator of the modern game tiki taka and Guardiola learned from him and added layers to it and so did Del Bosque and Aragones at NT level for Spain
I think we still had an inflated sense of how good our squad was (title winners just a couple of years ago!) when LvG came in. The players must be good so if we aren't winning, it's the coach's fault.
Unfortunately instead of finding patience and giving the benefit of the doubt to one of the best coaches in the world, we decided to give it to Ole.
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/h...n-gaal-scout-report-tactical-analysis-tactics
May be the reason lies somewhere else?
I watched a few of these preseason games live before LVGs first season at United and it made me really excited about the possibilities. What a shame this didn't come to full fruition
The foundation was there. The fans didn't know what they have missed. A manager with status like LVG failed, u think ETH can earn the respect from the senior players, will he get the buy in? Good luck and he needs it.
Arteta obviously didn't earn the respect and buy in from his senior players so he had to kick them all out.
He really does need it. These players will be hard to convince. I'm sure many of them know nothing about Ten Hag and he'll be walking through those doors with very little respect if any. They did this to a veteran like Rangknick. Ronaldo even refused to mention him by name in an interview
You can't win 4 points for matches. They beat everyone else as they are much butter than everyone else. PSG doesnt have such a rival.
Ajax has no breathing space as PSV is also way too good for the rest.
And try comparing PSG's record signings to other French teams.
I don’t think it’s hate. People just want us to try something different instead of going down the same old road again. Ten Haag can be a huge failure or another “meh”-experience, but nonetheless he is representing some new thinking and ideas and his ceiling is deemed higher.
We should have hired Poch in 2018 when his stock was high. Like we should have hired Mourinho in 2013 when his stock was high.
It's about time the club learned that very very basic lesson. If you want to hire a manager who will be a success hire them at the zenith of their career. Not when they're in a downward spiral. Not when their current clubs are sacking them or they're quitting under a cloud.
If Simeone became our manager I would pack it in and become part of that “Is it okay to stop supporting your club” thread. Of all the options that would realistically be considered for the United job he is at the bottom of that list.
"Exhaustive Dossiers" (i.e. Went on the Caf)
I don't think we're trying to be City, because all the top coaches in the EPL are now combining fast vertical transitions with strong zonal and positional play. Even Klopp has transitioned from a coach that placed a heavy emphasis on heavy metal football at Dortmund, where he would look to win the ball quickly and within a few passes his team would be having a shot on goal. The downside to that way of playing was that it was extremely taxing on the players, and he's since brought in a Dutch coach that helps his players with positional play and that gives Liverpool a controlled rest phase, and hence gives the players a breather from the counter pressing. Because applying pressure is a good thing and has it's benefits, but if the opposition is evading the press, then it's sensible to apply a controlled rest phase to maintain stamina levels.
I would say ten Hag is a cross between Klopp and Guardiola. And his potential could be very high, as far as we know. In the past I've written posts about Klopp on here and was told that he wasn't on the same level as Mourinho by some posters. He was apparently a hipster choice, and Mourinho knew the league and was a winner both in English football and European football. But for me it's a very simple concept, bring in the coach that has demonstrably shown that he can implement a strong positional game with counter pressing and strong off the the ball movement. Erik ten Hag potentially has those capabilities and if we can align and streamline our approach to recruitment towards the guiding principle, which will come from the coach, then i'm confident we'll cause Klopp a big problem. Guardiola has the backing of a oil state, so it might be a little bit more difficult to trouble him, but Klopp and Liverpool's recruitment department have shown that they can get the better of City who have state backing.
The Glazers most definitely aren't the Sheikhs and us and Liverpool don't have the financial capacity to absorb big hits in the transfer window like City have done with various failed transfers under their Sporting director, Txiki. Michael Edwards at Liverpool has proven himself to be a far better Sporting director than his City counter part imo. Because unlike at City, Edwards and FSG can't absorb the hit of a failed transfer. And this is the same Edwards that was ridiculed post the sacking of Brendan Rodgers. A DoFs success/failure is heavily dependant on the people he works with. And the arrival of Klopp who saw himself as the Head Coach and not manager, gave Edwards and his team of 50+ people, the control to shape the recruitment with Klopp's ideals. It's a very simple concept, and the whole football operations side works in unison towards a common goal, which is to support the head coach with his ideas on how to implement a said way of playing.the game.
You will never win anything with players like this, regardless of how good the coach is. Artery has shown this…get rid of the bad apples and watch how a good coach can thrive.
In over 5 years of working in my current job as a software engineer I've seen 3 managers come and go for my department, and 2 general company managers. Not once did I nor anyone else lack any respect for them because they weren't a celebrity who we'd heard of before.
The mere suggestion that a group of adults in a place of work would need convincing or would fail to show respect if we hired Ten Hag, is frankly ridiculous, and if it were true would indicate those players need sacking as they aren't fit for purpose.
Can't help get excited at what Ten Hag could do with some of the talent we have in our youth team; Garnacho, Mainoo, Fernandez, McNiel could all be moulded into his system in the next few years. Really hope we don't drag our heels with this appointment.
Thinking back on LVG's first season he actually did incredibly well results wise. Finishing top four on 70 points and +25 goal difference, with a first eleven that typically included Rooney, RVP, Mata, Valencia, Young, Blind, Fellaini and Rojo.
Talk about a first eleven riddled with problems. Age, no pace, Rojo etc.
Of course, where he went wrong was signing the likes of Darmian, Schweinsteiger and Schneiderlin to bolster that.
The no european football advantage. Once top 4 is impossible we really should tank the rest of the season to avoid the dreaded thursday/sunday schedule.
It isn't that simple. LVG had the right ideas for us (possession based footy, being comfortable on the a ball etc) however he did not get his team to deal well with a lack of space in the PL and most importantly, his signings were woeful. Out of all our post SAF managers I probably like him the most as his vision (although he was past it) was somewhat where we needed to go, but you can't botch transfers like he (and Woodward) did and realise any vision. ADM, Falcao, Scheiderlin, Schweinsteiger, ADM and so on - his signings were shit and also didnt fit what he was trying to do but just players signed as they were supposedly competent.
I think we have to get rid of this notion of having a manager "with PL experience". PL experience doesn't count for anything. Mourinho, Ancelotti, Pellegrini, Conte, Pep, Klopp didn't have any PL experience when they came in. All of them won the league in their first couple of seasons. So its pointless bringing up this argument for Poch and ETH.
I would think that the club looks at a few criteria when choosing the manager. From my perspective these are:
- Have a solid vision
- Be tactically sound
- Can adapt to the league
- Promotes youth
- Plays an attacking style
- Proven winner
- Man manage and handle dressing room egos
- Able to handle the pressure that comes with Man United
And after careful deliberation, hire the best manager that best fits all these criterion and aligns with the overarching vision of the club.
I would think that the club looks at a few criteria when choosing the manager. From my perspective these are:
- Have a solid vision
- Be tactically sound
- Can adapt to the league
- Promotes youth
- Plays an attacking style
- Proven winner
- Man manage and handle dressing room egos
- Able to handle the pressure that comes with Man United
And after careful deliberation, hire the best manager that best fits all these criterion and aligns with the overarching vision of the club.
LVG didnt have the attacking players to be fair. I think he would have done well given more time and more backing. He had to play Rooney that was a big problem
Personally I think Rashford and Martial would be top players had he stayed
Agreed.
Going from LVG to mourinho was criminal wasn't it, LVG set the foundations for us to move to a more modern possesion based football signing technical players, concentrating on ball retention and shape. Probably a bit to pragmatic and slow for the modern game but the foundations were there.
Then we went for the big shiny object of mourinho who dismantled the technical squad lvg put together and assembled a squad concentrated on physical attributes and set us back years. Slight short term success followed by the inevitable collapse that we are still reeling from. His 200m midfield of Pogba, fred and matic have got to be up there with some of the worst wastes of money in the history of football.
I always wonder if Mourinho was actually behind the Pogba purchase or was it our marketing experts? Mourinho didn't seem to have a lot of time for him.
He tried to sign him for Chelsea the summer before
Hasn't Custis been quite reliable lately?
He didn’t do much after united. We should’ve moved him upstairs or something. Stuck with the plan. Bring in a young manager who could have taken us to the next level.
LVG outed the board and Ed on this previously. He has confirmed on a number of occasions that he was sold a picture of a club that could do what no other could do in the transfer market. He was assured he could get the players he wanted but when he arrived, he found that it didn’t quite work that way.
Di Maria was the killer- he was a bit of the magic LVG was looking for in order to take dominance of possession to comprehensive victories but their relationship led to the guy never settling. His other signings were not an issue in that regard because none effected the fact that he had us dominating the ball in games we played both at home and away using those players.
The key and the ultimate downfall was not being able to progress to the next level without some of those players he was promised. Ultimately, that’s the club. He did what he said he would do with what he had- boring as fuk though. Then Mourinho came on the scene and the rest as they say is history.
Ahh. Thanks.
Realistically, how could United appoint a manager at the end of March without interviewing the candidates?
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Not sure how true this is, but I'm expecting a lot of blacklash from the Poch IN camp about this, furiously telling us Hag is not the man.
To be fair been doing a bit myself about Poch
, but only because he not even my 2nd pick would have a few more ahead of him. Not convinced at allI think post SAF we've literally tried everything with managers. Have a look at our appointments since:
1. Moyes - picked by SAF which is why nobody questioned that decision. But he was clearly out of his depth at United. Never had the ability to challenge for trophies and titles, and manage big dressing rooms. By March we realised, "oops... we might have made a mistake" - reset please.
2. LvG - a different direction from Moyes. The idea was to have an experienced manager who can give stability to the club. But unfortunately, his ideas were old and he was incapable of adapting to the league. Bought and sold too many players - and thus breaking the spine of the team. This was when the culture started to change. By the 2nd year, this was a lost cause.
3. Mourinho - Screw philosophy lets get the proven winner. We thought, "Ok, so we messed up on the previous 2 appointments. Let's get the one who knows how to win". But Mourinho is Mourinho, and as well as he did in his 2nd season and winning the UEL in his 1st - he started spreading a lot of negativity. He was never going to be a long term appointment, we all knew that. The only difference is, he didn't win the league. By this time, the culture of United was ruined. The dressing room became toxic. "We messed up again didn't we?"
4. Ole - rewind. Get the old culture back. He stabilised the ship somewhat, but was always going to be challenged from a tactical point of view. Even till the end of last season, he was on the path to getting us back before it all went to shit. Had a lot of positives, but still wasn't THE ONE to get us back.
5. RR - very temporary and more like an SOS for the club. To steady the ship and fix problems at the core of the club. We've already messed way too many times.
Now, the reason for saying all this is that - we've already tried several options. We went with a British manager to repeat what SAF did, we went for the experienced hardman in Lvg, we went with the experienced proven winner in Mou, and we went with the club legend who understands the club. None of them worked. This is why Conte wouldn't have worked. This is exactly why I feel Poch might not work either.
We need something different. We need a shift in our strategy. We need the next Klopp or Pep or Tuchel. And there are only a handful of managers who are available and has that potential. ETH is at the top of that list.
1. Moyes - picked by SAF which is why nobody questioned that decision. But he was clearly out of his depth at United. Never had the ability to challenge for trophies and titles, and manage big dressing rooms. By March we realised, "oops... we might have made a mistake" - reset please.
2. LvG - a different direction from Moyes. The idea was to have an experienced manager who can give stability to the club. But unfortunately, his ideas were old and he was incapable of adapting to the league. Bought and sold too many players - and thus breaking the spine of the team. This was when the culture started to change. By the 2nd year, this was a lost cause.
3. Mourinho - Screw philosophy lets get the proven winner. We thought, "Ok, so we messed up on the previous 2 appointments. Let's get the one who knows how to win". But Mourinho is Mourinho, and as well as he did in his 2nd season and winning the UEL in his 1st - he started spreading a lot of negativity. He was never going to be a long term appointment, we all knew that. The only difference is, he didn't win the league. By this time, the culture of United was ruined. The dressing room became toxic. "We messed up again didn't we?"
4. Ole - rewind. Get the old culture back. He stabilised the ship somewhat, but was always going to be challenged from a tactical point of view. Even till the end of last season, he was on the path to getting us back before it all went to shit. Had a lot of positives, but still wasn't THE ONE to get us back.
5. RR - very temporary and more like an SOS for the club. To steady the ship and fix problems at the core of the club. We've already messed way too many times.
Now, the reason for saying all this is that - we've already tried several options. We went with a British manager to repeat what SAF did, we went for the experienced hardman in Lvg, we went with the experienced proven winner in Mou, and we went with the club legend who understands the club. None of them worked. This is why Conte wouldn't have worked. This is exactly why I feel Poch might not work either.
We need something different. We need a shift in our strategy. We need the next Klopp or Pep or Tuchel. And there are only a handful of managers who are available and has that potential. ETH is at the top of that list.
This reeks of Sancho and particularly Varane stories in the summer.
Luckhurst calling it early. More jumping on. The caf not believing a word of it, seeing as it's actually what the majority want and we're all a bunch of pessimists
If you DON'T think it's going to be ETH.. Then there is a fair bit of money to be made with the bookies, as joint 2nd fav (Poch and Tuchel) are now at 5/1
Luckhurst calling it early. More jumping on. The caf not believing a word of it, seeing as it's actually what the majority want and we're all a bunch of pessimists
If you DON'T think it's going to be ETH.. Then there is a fair bit of money to be made with the bookies, as joint 2nd fav (Poch and Tuchel) are now at 5/1
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