Next Draft - Ideas and Discussions

@Invictus :lol:

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Wut?
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Chinese-transfers.jpg
 
Chesterlestreet said:
There will be - without any doubt. So, if this is a concern (and it should be, in fairness) we need to think about blocking some players.
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I'd rather block in reinforcement stages. Just make a rule to effect, losing teams 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks are banned from being picked reinforcements. This way managers get to keep their own picks and not add to a star heavy team as top 24 picks would be blocked in reinforcements. Nice balance and avoids making it a American Reserve Draft.

Edit: In fact I think this rule should feature in all drafts.
 
Another thing to factor in is that documenting exploits in S-American league football isn't easy - especially if the player is old school, and you aren't a Spanish speaker.

Not to mention the state of league football in Brazil pre 1970.

Or the fact that possible endless debates could be had about the relative strength of the various leagues, at various points in time - and, no: It's too complicated, all things said and done.
 
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I'd rather block in reinforcement stages. Just make a rule to effect, losing teams 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks are banned from being picked reinforcements. This way managers get to keep their own picks and not add to a star heavy team as top 24 picks would be blocked in reinforcements. Nice balance and avoids making it a American Reserve Draft.

Edit: In fact I think this rule should feature in all drafts.
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That's not bad, actually.

As for this particular draft, I suppose it depends on what one thinks the focus should be - an American Reserve Draft is, sort of, the idea to begin with: Same as the Eastern-Europe draft in that regard - what you want to see is the player who never makes it in a no-restriction draft, because his place is taken by Puskas, or Bozsik, or whoever.

However, what you propose could work nicely enough - people can still build a team around Messadona, but they can't fill the roles of the whole cast with usual suspects.
 
Hardcore: the likes of Erico and Bochini would be the first round picks, but those of us who aren't Spanish speakers (most of us here, I assume), will really struggle with depth. The likes of Zizinho, Leonidas and even Friedenreich will feature too, which is refreshing

Or we can have one or two global superstars limit per team (nice idea about blocked reinforcements btw).

We can even have random GOAT rounds like in the Reality Draft with non-restricted pool after that
 
List of Drafts:

Draft I: Cal?'s - New Fantasy Draft (Winner: Cal?)
Draft II: Polaroid's - Retro Fantasy Draft - all players born in 60s (Winner: Polaroid)
Draft III: Cal?'s - 70s Fantasy Draft (Winner: Cling Bak)
Draft IV: Brwned's - 50s Fantasy Draft (Winner: Brwned)
Draft V: Polaroid's Premier League 20 Season Draft (Winner: Gio)
Draft VI: antohan's All -Time Fantasy Draft (Winner: antohan)
Draft VII: Theon's - Champions League Draft (Winner: Gio)
Draft VIII: Aldo's - Decades Draft (Winner: Theon)
Draft IX: The Next Generation Draft (Winner: NM/Snow)
Draft X: World Cup All Time All Stars Draft (Winner: Annahnomoss)
Draft XI: Aldo's - Sheep Draft (Winner Gio)
Draft XII: Polaroid's - Transfer Muppet Draft (Winner: MJJ)
Draft XIII: Annahnomoss's - Auction Draft (Winner: Cutch/Annah)
Draft XIV: rpitroda's - Criteria Draft (Winner: Aldo)
Draft XV: EAP's - Reality Draft (Winner: antohan)
Draft XVI: Annahnomoss's - Managers Draft (Winner: EAP)
Draft XVII: crappycraperson's - British Irish Draft (Winner: MJJ)
Draft XVIII: EAP's - Modern Era Draft (Winner: Theon)
Draft XIX: Skizzo's - Second Sheep Draft (Winner: Cutch)
Draft XX: Balu's - Euro Draft (Winner: Joga Bonito)
Draft XXI: Annahnomoss's - All Time Auction Draft (Winner: Cal?)
Draft XXII: Skizzo's All Time Premier League Draft (Winner: Skizzo/Pat)
Draft XXIII: EAP's Chain Draft (Winner: The Stain)
Draft XXIV: Aldo's 40s Retro Draft (Winner: Gio/Theon)
Draft XXV: Gio's Third Redcafe Sheep Draft (Winner: Stobzilla)
Draft XXVI: Physiocrat's Billy No Mates Draft (Winner: Joga Bonito/Gio)
Draft XXVII: Marty1968's Three Leagues Draft (Winner: Enigma87/Snow)
Draft XXVIII: Aldo's Reserves Draft (Winner: RedTiger/Joga/Balu)
Draft XXIX: Joga's Remake Draft (Winner: Gio)
Draft XXX: EAP's Double Draft (Winner: TBC)
 
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To be honest if we want to do a draft where we get away from GOATs, then I don't think we should do an all-time South American draft. When the time comes my own preference would be to do a South American one justice by allowing all or the majority of the GOATs, otherwise it's just watering down the pool for no reason rather than variety (which has never stopped us with the countless all-time drafts we've done). The same goes for the Eastern European one IMO.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Another thing to factor in is that documenting exploits in S-American league football isn't easy - especially if the player is old school, and you aren't a Spanish speaker.

Not to mention the state of league football in Brazil pre 1970.

Or the fact that possible endless debates could be had about the relative strength of the various leagues, at various points in time - and, no: It's too complicated, all things said and done.
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I'm not sure. The managers will compare the credentials of the players by looking at their performances with the national squad or the clubs (Copa Libertadores, Copa America...).
 
Gio said:
To be honest if we want to do a draft where we get away from GOATs, then I don't think we should do an all-time South American draft. When the time comes my own preference would be to do a South American one justice by allowing all or the majority of the GOATs, otherwise it's just watering down the pool for no reason rather than variety (which has never stopped us with the countless all-time drafts we've done). The same goes for the Eastern European one IMO.
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Yeah, you've a point - no denying that. There's something artificial about it - if you introduce blocks in a draft which otherwise has a regional or tournament specific theme.

However, I think EAP's reinforcement idea should be implemented: Let people pick a couple of GOATs to build their XI around, but that's it: Those are your GOATs, no more - and you reinforce in order to strengthen the team as such, behind or around said GOATs. Strikes me as a both interesting and very realistic sort of restriction.
 
Downcast said:
I'm not sure. The managers will compare the credentials of the players by looking at their performances with the national squad or the clubs (Copa Libertadores, Copa America...).
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They can't do that if the actual standard is league peak, though.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I'd rather block in reinforcement stages. Just make a rule to effect, losing teams 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks are banned from being picked reinforcements. This way managers get to keep their own picks and not add to a star heavy team as top 24 picks would be blocked in reinforcements. Nice balance and avoids making it a American Reserve Draft.

Edit: In fact I think this rule should feature in all drafts.
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Interesting idea.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Yeah, you've a point - no denying that. There's something artificial about it - if you introduce blocks in a draft which otherwise has a regional or tournament specific theme.

However, I think EAP's reinforcement idea should be implemented: Let people pick a couple of GOATs to build their XI around, but that's it: Those are your GOATs, no more - and you reinforce in order to strengthen the team as such, behind or around said GOATs. Strikes me as a both interesting and very realistic sort of restriction.
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Yeah, that's a fine call and certainly worth trying out.
 
Gio said:
To be honest if we want to do a draft where we get away from GOATs, then I don't think we should do an all-time South American draft. When the time comes my own preference would be to do a South American one justice by allowing all or the majority of the GOATs, otherwise it's just watering down the pool for no reason rather than variety (which has never stopped us with the countless all-time drafts we've done). The same goes for the Eastern European one IMO.
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Agreed.
 
Downcast said:
'league peak' may 'overcomplicate' the debates.
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That's my point exactly.

You can do that if the draft itself is a league draft (like the one we had recently) - but even then it's problematic, because people will inevitably look at general form as much as specific league form.

And here we have multiple leagues (that were organized in different ways at different points in time) spanning many decades. It's just not feasible. The idea was good enough: Restrict it somewhat - and keep the focus on South-America (rather than exploits in Europe). But in practice it would be chaos.
 
An 'Americas draft' already brings - in itself - variety.

For example, players like Joya, Canhoteiro, Bebeto, Gallardo, Ademir Marquez, Corbatta, Orsi, Loustau, Carlos Sosa, Pepe, Ramirez, Leonidas,... won't be ignored this time imho.

And the idea of EAP is good to avoid SF with 22 GOATS on the pitch (Maradona-Zico-Romario-Pelé-Ronaldinho-Rivaldo-Figueroa-Passarella....).

Then, no need to have a list of blocked players.
 
I'd say there are 100+ South American players who are familiar to draft managers here. About 50 of them are usual final rounds suspects.

Considering we need 186 players there'll be a good mix of
- new additions
- extended featuring of common known players who usually get dropped in QF.

esp in later stages if we use the reinforcement blocking criteria. It may not result in hidden gems, but this is a good start in getting more familiar with that region.
 
Las Vegas Monopoly Draft:

Monopoly_1.jpg


Welcome to the Caf's 1st edition of Las Vegas Monopoly Draft.

Game Play Overview:

It's designed like the classic monopoly game with some Vegas style game-luck elements thrown in. Players will be allotted random numbers between 1-12 (like throwing a dice) and will move along the "game-board" below. Picks/Penalties will be made based on the criteria the land on.​

Standard T&C:

S1 - All time draft. No blocks.
S2 - Initial drafting of 14 players. Extra 2 players per Reinforcement Round.
S3 - 8hrs per pick. Do not wait or provide extra time.
S4 - Once laid, it's played. No change in picks after posting.​

How it works?

H1. The managers will be randomized into a Snake order. This will be the pick order all through the draft.
Manager C
Manager N
Manager I
Manager M
Manager G
Manager F
Manager D
Manager E
Manager J
Manager O
Manager L
Manager K
Manager A
Manager P
Manager B
Manager H

H2. Every round I'll randomize numbers between 1-12 (x2, just like rolling a pair of dices)
Roll 8
Roll 4
Roll 9
Roll 12
Roll 6
Roll 7
Roll 5
Roll 10
Roll 10
Roll 2
Roll 3
Roll 4
Roll 11
Roll 6
Roll 2
Roll 11
Roll 12 (Ignored)
Roll 3 (Ignored)
Roll 1 (Ignored)
Roll 5 (Ignored)
Roll 8 (Ignored)
Roll 1 (Ignored)
Roll 7 (Ignored)
Roll 9 (Ignored)

H3. The first 16 numbers will be allocated to the managers in the same order as in Steps 1 & 2 above
Manager C - Box 8
Manager N - Box 4
Manager I - Box 9
Manager M - Box 12
Manager G - Box 6
Manager F - Box 7
Manager D - Box 5
Manager E - Box 10
Manager J - Box 10
Manager O - Box 2
Manager L - Box 3
Manager K - Box 4
Manager A - Box 11
Manager P - Box 6
Manager B - Box 2
Manager H - Box 11

4. Managers will make the pick/lose players in snake order complying with the criteria for that turn. Snake order reversed alternate rounds as usual.​

Roulette Reinforcements:

R1. There will be 4 rolls of which managers can choose any two rolls. The rolls will be "blind" as in managers cannot see the rolls until they commit to playing that round.
Make choice:

Manager A - Pass
Manager B - Play
Manager C - Play
Manager D - Play
Manager E - Pass

Draft Mod makes the rolls and announces the results.
Manager A - N/A but you've rolled a 4
Manager B - Roll 12
Manager C - Roll 2
Manager D - Roll7
Manager E - N/A but you've rolled a 7

R2. The movement will continue from where the managers were at end of initial drafting rounds.
Manager B was on Box 4 at end of drafting, he'll move 12 boxes forward from there i.e. to Box 16.

Once every manager has played 2 turns the reinforcement round will end.

R3: If you come to Box 13 during reinforcements you'll have to drop a player and it'll be counted as a successful turn :devil:

R4: First and second round picks of teams will not be available in reinforcement pools.​

Lucky or Not?

L1 - Holier than Thou: If any manager draws numbers 3 & 7 in 3 consecutive turns (Example: Turn 1 - 3, Turn 2 - 3, Turn 3 - 7 / all 3's / all 7s / any combination thereof) they get to ignore the criteria and pick a player of their choice as a result of a Divine miracle.

L2 - Devil's Own: If any manager draws numbers 6 & 9 in 3 consecutive turns (Example: Turn 1 - 6, Turn 2 - 9, Turn 3 - 6 / all 6's / all 9s / any combination thereof) they need to sacrifice a player from their teams to be rid of the Devil's Eye.
​
Game Board:

Monop1.jpg
 
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Still love the sound of that monopoly draft personally. Some GOATs for sure but the fun of seeing what you get each turn would be quality.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
S-America should be straight-forward too, in terms of running it - so if nobody else wants to take it, I can run that one as well.
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Do you want to add further restrictions to that? Limit the number of players people can pick from Brazil and Argentina to avoid making the whole thing a two nation army?

The one I played on another forum had these rules :

Draft 4 players from Pool 1:
Brazil, Argentina

Draft 6 players from Pool 2:
Uruguay, Chile, Paraguay, Peru

Draft 4 players from Pool 3:
Colombia, Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela


You can pick up to 3 players from any single country from Pool 1.
You can pick up to 2 players from any single country from Pool 2.
You can pick up to 2 players from any single country from Pool 3.
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You can probably modify those, just a thought.
 
@Aldo

That makes sense as such.

What could - potentially - be a problem, is that the truly interesting players (the hidden gems and unsung heroes) in Pool 1 itself may suffer from this. 4 x 16 players from Argentina/Brazil = 64 players. I don't know - if you remove the usual suspects plus the generally well known players from that number, how many potential gems and heroes are you left with?

Could be enough - depending on how hidden and unsung they need to be. But perhaps it makes more sense to - simply - restrict the number of Pool 1 players to, let's say, seven: You need to draft 12 players, and 5 of these must be from the countries in Pools 2 and 3 above. *

And then we go with EAP's reinforcement idea to make sure that nobody gets to add multiple GOATs to their teams in later rounds.

* Or even simpler (which also works if we include CONCACAF players): Max 7 from Arg/Bra, no restrictions beyond that.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
@Aldo

That makes sense as such.

What could - potentially - be a problem, is that the truly interesting players (the hidden gems and unsung heroes) in Pool 1 itself may suffer from this. 4 x 16 players from Argentina/Brazil = 64 players. I don't know - if you remove the usual suspects plus the generally well known players from that number, how many potential gems and heroes are you left with?

Could be enough - depending on how hidden and unsung they need to be. But perhaps it makes more sense to - simply - restrict the number of Pool 1 players to, let's say, seven: You need to draft 12 players, and 5 of these must be from the countries in Pools 2 and 3 above. *

And then we go with EAP's reinforcement idea to make sure that nobody gets to add multiple GOATs to their teams in later rounds.

* Or even simpler (which also works if we include CONCACAF players): Max 7 from Arg/Bra, no restrictions beyond that.
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Yeah definitely, that was just a sample of rules and we can play around with it. We need to figure out what we aim to achieve :

1. Hidden gems from Brazil and Argentina.
2. A fair chance to both top players and a few obscure ones from the rest of the continent.

For 2. this kind of a template makes sense. We should probably also put in a caveat that your keeper should be from pool 1 to avoid people having a cop out and picking the likes of Bravo. We can combine the pool 2&3 into one as we are keeping it simpler than those guys (that was one hell of a challenging draft, to be honest :D )

For 1. We can possibly have a blocking round prior to the draft, or perhaps you as the mod can ban the TOP GOATS - your Peles, Ronaldos, Messi, etc. Based on what, I don't know. So even the Pool 1 candidates begin with those who would not feature in an all time Arg/Bra XI but we all know that even their second teams are mighty strong. Banning those names will also reduce the chance of having attacks like Pele, Messi, Ronaldo in later rounds which take the discussion away from all other players which are likely to be of a much lesser level given we don't have any Europeans.
 
Aldo said:
Banning those names will also reduce the chance of having attacks like Pele, Messi, Ronaldo in later rounds which take the discussion away from all other players which are likely to be of a much lesser level given we don't have any Europeans.
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This won't happen with the EAP model in place, though:

Reinforcement pool: Losing teams - but only picks 4-12. So, the GOATs from the losing sides aren't available as upgrades. The way I see it, what should happen is - then - that people choose their GOAT to build a team around, and then they're stuck with that: Reinforcement rounds will be about solidifying the XI as a whole, not about adding more GOATish charm to the team.

It's hard to say exactly how it will play out in practice - but in theory this should be interesting, and open for some novelty.
 
Chesterlestreet said:
This won't happen with the EAP model in place, though:

Reinforcement pool: Losing teams - but only picks 4-12. So, the GOATs from the losing sides aren't available as upgrades. The way I see it, what should happen is - then - that people choose their GOAT to build a team around, and then they're stuck with that: Reinforcement rounds will be about solidifying the XI as a whole, not about adding more GOATish charm to the team.

It's hard to say exactly how it will play out in practice - but in theory this should be interesting, and open for some novelty.
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Ah, I wasn't aware of that model. That sounds good.
 
Like the idea of building around one GOAT and not being able to add another
 
For the All-Time South American draft it would lose it's lustre without GOATs. I reckon with the 7 max from Argentina and Brazil with EAPs reinforcement model it would work well.
 
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I'm in favour of letting people draft in a couple of players beyond the 12th man.

1. It doesn't hurt.

2. It can possibly spice things up a bit, making it less obvious (at least in some cases) what XI the manager puts out there.

In this draft, based on the discussion above, I'd propose:

* 14 man squad.

* The manager can field no more than 7 players from Pool 1 at any time.

* GK has to be a Pool 1 player.

(Last point can be discussed, I suppose - some classic GKs are out if this is to stand, but in general I think it makes sense as a restriction).
 
Chesterlestreet said:
Agreed.

And no changes allowed before the 12hr mark, unless it's a question of purely technical issues.
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I'd go further and say no changes at all unless it is a situation of a genuine error or the formation graphic is giving posters the wrong impression.

Also minimise OPs. I liked Aldo's tactics template but you could then an additional 300 words for the manager to explain any key points he wishes then leave the rest to open discussion. The effort Downcast and Invictus put in is admirable but I just glance over it unless it's a player I don't know so well.
 
I think we should just exclude top 3 + Messi as they are a cut above anyone else in terms of their reputation and quality. Garrincha won't be as useful for example, as he is a classic winger (although the best in history) who, by definition, is less decisive than a free-roaming forward. It leaves us with big enough pool of well-known players and allows us (well, you - I won't participate) to build an interesting and unique side around them

South America - Player of the Century
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1."Pelé" (Brazil) 220 (Edson Arantes do Nascimento)
2.Diego Armando Maradona (Argentina) 193
3.Alfredo di Stéfano (Argentina) 161
4.Garrincha (Brazil) 142 (Manoel dos Santos Garrincha)
5.José Manuel Moreno (Argentina) 82
6.Juan Alberto Schiaffino(Uruguay) 52
7."Zico" (Brazil) 51 (Arthur Antunes Coimbra)
8.Arsenio Pastor Erico (Paraguay) 42
Elías Ricardo Figueroa (Chile) 42
10.Thomas Soãres "Zizinho"(Brazil) 40
11.Luis Alberto Cubilla (Uruguay) 25
12.Adolfo Pedernera (Argentina) 24
13.Arthur Friedenreich (Brazil) 21
"Tostão" (Brazil) 21 (Eduardo Gonçalves de Andrade)
Obdulio Jacinto Varela (Uruguay) 21
16.Enrique Omar Sivori (Argentina) 19
17.Teófilo Cubillas (Peru) 17
Valdir Pereira Didi (Brazil) 17
Willington Ortiz (Colombia) 17
20.José Leandro Andrade (Uruguay) 16
Héctor Scarone (Uruguay) 16
Alberto Spencer (Ecuador) 16
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Physiocrat said:
I'd go further and say no changes at all unless it is a situation of a genuine error or the formation graphic is giving posters the wrong impression.
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I largely agree. It's still - basically - a do-over more than a "realistic" tactical change, and as such it should be outlawed (because it makes no sense, and is very unfair on the other manager).

If a majority still want it, however, a compromise might be what we've discussed before: No changes to the OP whatsoever. The new tactics/formation pics may be threadmarked - but the OP stays as is.
 
Physiocrat said:
I'd go further and say no changes at all unless it is a situation of a genuine error or the formation graphic is giving posters the wrong impression.

Also minimise OPs. I liked Aldo's tactics template but you could then an additional 300 words for the manager to explain any key points he wishes then leave the rest to open discussion. The effort Downcast and Invictus put in is admirable but I just glance over it unless it's a player I don't know so well.
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There should be a advantage to those who are tactically versatile. I would prefer to retain tactical changes.

As the the 2nd point, I agree.

- Small player profiles (and none for obvious GOATs)
- No pictures.
- No videos in OP. Need to be spoilered anywhere else.
- No quotes.
- No gif's. Need to be spoilered anywhere else.
 
harms said:
I think we should just exclude top 3 + Messi as they are a cut above anyone else in terms of their reputation and quality. Garrincha won't be as useful for example, as he is a classic winger (although the best in history) who, by definition, is less decisive than a free-roaming forward. It leaves us with big enough pool of well-known players and allows us (well, you - I won't participate) to build an interesting and unique side around them
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Yes - I don't disagree wildly.

The counter argument will be that the draft pales a bit without those players.

The most important question, I think, is whether their inclusion is a genuine problem in sheer draft terms: Will those who are lucky enough to grab them profit disproportionally from doing so?

We're looking at a regular snake draft, most likely - so bear that in mind. The first four get Pelé, Maradona, Di Stefano and Messi - and then the rest of the gang get two picks to compensate as best they can.

Also: With the EAP model, you're Messiless for the duration of the draft if you don't land him straight away - that's a consideration too.
 
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