It is not a dynamic clock. Many voters prefer to wait before voting, so making subs based on votes is a hit and miss. Also some managers cannot be online all through, making the use of clock quite inaccurate.
Next Draft - Ideas and Discussions
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
It is not a dynamic clock. Many voters prefer to wait before voting, so making subs based on votes is a hit and miss. Also some managers cannot be online all through, making the use of clock quite inaccurate.
Yeah, I'm - now - of the opinion that a match clock simply isn't logical unless we change the basic format of the matches, i.e. attempt to make them more "realistic" in several ways.
The "match" as it's currently "played" is essentially a discussion between managers and neutrals. It doesn't make sense to introduce a virtual match clock into that setting.
And for the same reason I'm in favour of EAP's suggestion earlier in this thread: Scrap subs. They don't make sense as long as it's perfectly arbitrary whether they're actually taken as "realistic" subs: Some voters will not take them as such, but simply look at the XI presented and consider the strength of it - not taking into account that it's meant to represent the team as it appears in the 75th minute, after a certain kind of match has taken place.
In short, until we implement a brand new model - which is much closer to some sort of match simulation than the present discussion based one - neither subs nor a match clock makes much sense.
Scrap subs - thus eliminating the possibility of a manager getting away with fecking up completely with impunity (which is often what happens when someone makes early subs - they aren't taken as emergency steps after a horrible start, but simply as a do-over which the manager doesn't suffer much from, if he suffers at all).
The "match" as it's currently "played" is essentially a discussion between managers and neutrals. It doesn't make sense to introduce a virtual match clock into that setting.
And for the same reason I'm in favour of EAP's suggestion earlier in this thread: Scrap subs. They don't make sense as long as it's perfectly arbitrary whether they're actually taken as "realistic" subs: Some voters will not take them as such, but simply look at the XI presented and consider the strength of it - not taking into account that it's meant to represent the team as it appears in the 75th minute, after a certain kind of match has taken place.
In short, until we implement a brand new model - which is much closer to some sort of match simulation than the present discussion based one - neither subs nor a match clock makes much sense.
Scrap subs - thus eliminating the possibility of a manager getting away with fecking up completely with impunity (which is often what happens when someone makes early subs - they aren't taken as emergency steps after a horrible start, but simply as a do-over which the manager doesn't suffer much from, if he suffers at all).
That is simple but brilliant. It is an easy way to punish errors. I'd also then ban tactical changes too for the same reason. It will also reduce the load on the draft master.
Also what's your view on how many players each side should draft in a non-reality draft? The 12th man is rarely used but allows for some tactical manoeuvres. 14 picks would give even more variety but I think the quality would be much lower that no-one would care so 12 seems optimal.
On putting the polls up, I reckon a poll up after 8-10hrs would work as, assuming the draft master is in the UK, he can start the game at 12/1pm and then request a poll between 9-11pm which would work. Ideally it would be a 16hr poll if that's possible.
I'd say it depends on what pool is available: If the managers are able to draft in multiple players on roughly the same level for key positions/roles, a large squad makes it more interesting – giving them a genuine chance to decide between different tactical approaches, which again makes it more of a surprise (for the neutrals too) what the manager ends up going for.
Say that you end up with: CF 1, CF 2, LW, RW, SS, AM, CM 1, CM 2, DM – all of whom are roughly on the same level.
You can go:
RW – CM 1 – CM 2 – LW
CF 1 – CF 1
CF 1 – CF 1
or:
DM – CM 2
AM
SS – CF 2 – LW
AM
SS – CF 2 – LW
...and so forth, depending on who you end up playing.
If, on the other hand, the pool is of a kind which makes it unlikely that anyone will draft in possible starters beyond the XI, it would seem pointless to go for anything beyond the 12th man – and one may even consider scrapping him too, for that matter.
I'd like to retain the 12th man. In most of my draft the pick enables me to switch between back 3 and 4 as I deem fit and keeps opponents guessing a bit. I do not see any major benefits in scrapping the 12th man.
A suggestion :
1. 12 hours of blah blah blah
2. Rename the thread "Game ... vs ... - TIME TO VOTE" in order to attract more voters
3. 24 hours to vote.
1. 12 hours of blah blah blah
2. Rename the thread "Game ... vs ... - TIME TO VOTE" in order to attract more voters
3. 24 hours to vote.
I understand some would like to play a LOSER DRAFT. Instead of having a long list of blocked players, the idea could be to play will all the players who haven't had the chance
- Option A: to win a major trophy like the WC, the Euro/Copa America, the Champions League/European Cup/UEFA Cup/Europa League...
- Option B: to play a final of a major competition like those listed above
The MONOPOLY DRAFT could be also refreshing .
Another idea could be implemented in the next drafts the MERCATO PERIOD with diverse elements:
- Each team has a number of players 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. . The draw could say that this player has a length of contract of 2 years meaning he would be on the market after 2 games...
- Auction process
- Swaps: ' Manager A wants to sell the Player C for an amount of x millions
Another suggestion could be the MULTIPLE CRITERIA DRAFT:
- All the managers have the obligation to use 2 'youth players' (not necessarily the same during the competition) in the starting 11
- 3 players who have never won a major trophy
- 1 player under 22
- 1 player who is more than 32 years now: so no career peak here
- 1 African player in the starting 11
- ...
A MULTIPLE EVENTS DRAW before any round
- The left-back is injured
- The GK is suspended for 2 games
- you can only choose your recruits in the team you have beaten in the previous round
- ...
There are other suggestion in the last pages.
Maybe should we introduce more 'strategy' in the drafting and more 'unknown players' but we still need some world-class players.
12th man can be kept, sure, even if he's just for show (it's just one more round of drafting) - and some people may indeed find him useful, as you suggest.
On the general theme of subs (as they're used per now), I'd add the following to what was said above:
There are two basic problems:
1. People don't consider the sub as a sub - but a do-over. In some cases the manager changes his tactic/formation as a direct result of neutrals giving him explicit advice in the match thread - and he ends up benefiting from the whole situation (not being punished in the slightest for fecking up initially). This is clearly a weakness of the current model - I don't see how anyone can disagree with that.
2. Even if the sub(s) is/are considered as such, and a virtual match clock is taken into consideration, people still don't consider what the virtual match itself would plausibly look like at the time when the sub(s) is/are made. Example: You feck up in one way or another, get loads of criticism (and hardly any praise) - and change your tactic/formation. If this is - as it often is in such cases - a fundamental feck-up, a real brainfart, etc., the realistic match picture is that you have been kicked rather severely in the nuts and conceded (one goal at the very least): Ergo, the only substitution which makes sense is an offensive one - you need to score! Perhaps even multiple goals. But this factor is hardly ever considered: As long as the new formation/tactic makes sense, you can easily go for a significantly less offensive strategy, and get away with it. Which makes very little sense if we're talking about a virtual match.
Lastly, I'd also mention something we've seen on occasion: Neutrals/voters who actively encourage the manager to make a change - and even go as far as to suggest they'll vote for the manager in question if the change is implemented. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone here - quite the opposite, because I'm pretty sure that I myself have done this, or something similar (in my case, I was probably drunk, though - but still). Now, this obviously makes a complete mockery out of any realism as far as subs are concerned, and while it is perfectly understandable that neutrals get caught up in the action (a good thing, in itself), the practice itself is horribly unfair on the other bloke.
Conclusion: As long as subs remain a part of the game, they should be looked at very closely - because the current model is seriously flawed.
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Each game is 24 hours right? Just make it so when 12 hours are done there's HT. That could give people the illusion of less time being left.
Personally I think that the substitutions should way little. It's highly overrated irl how much positive impact a sub can have. Just have a look at games and see for yourself. Unless it's a game where players are rested and you sub in 3 starters for bit-part players then the impact is probable to be minimal or worse to the team. HT substitutions are better because you can send out your team into the 2nd half with a collective goal in mind but it's way harder when a player comes in and says "I go here, you there and you there".
For my money you might as well scrap the in-game subs. By all means keep the squad bigger but scrap the subs.
As for the draft itself. So many people here have drafted so often that they know who is going to play which way because they know what the player pool is left. It's always the same players. To keep it fresh imo you need to take it down a notch and let players in that haven't taken part in the draft. Maybe do a European draft and limit the number of players that have played for a team that's been top X in the past Y years in Z leagues.
Personally I think that the substitutions should way little. It's highly overrated irl how much positive impact a sub can have. Just have a look at games and see for yourself. Unless it's a game where players are rested and you sub in 3 starters for bit-part players then the impact is probable to be minimal or worse to the team. HT substitutions are better because you can send out your team into the 2nd half with a collective goal in mind but it's way harder when a player comes in and says "I go here, you there and you there".
For my money you might as well scrap the in-game subs. By all means keep the squad bigger but scrap the subs.
As for the draft itself. So many people here have drafted so often that they know who is going to play which way because they know what the player pool is left. It's always the same players. To keep it fresh imo you need to take it down a notch and let players in that haven't taken part in the draft. Maybe do a European draft and limit the number of players that have played for a team that's been top X in the past Y years in Z leagues.
Agreed. But what you mention above is actually interesting: If we could implement it as a rule that subs are only allowed at "half time", i.e. after 12hrs have passed, this might actually go some way towards making subs more realistic - and positive feck-ups more costly.
Completely agree.
I'd suggest two concrete changes (one of them have been discussed before, and as I recall the mood was positive about this one - it just wasn't implemented properly) IF people still want subs to play a part in the games:
1. Subs only allowed at HT, i.e. after 12hrs.
2. Original formation pic/tactical write-up remains in OP. New formation pic/tactical changes can be threadmarked but does not feature in OP.
1. Subs only allowed at HT, i.e. after 12hrs.
2. Original formation pic/tactical write-up remains in OP. New formation pic/tactical changes can be threadmarked but does not feature in OP.
I'd be keen to do something more focused in an upcoming draft - e.g. a Serie A 90s or all-time, La Liga 90s or all time, Eastern Europe or South America all time - whatever but something themed where around half the players haven't seen any draft action before.
Match clock seems like a no brainer - could probably be running with that now to be honest. Subs or tactical changes in second half only seems fair as well.
Match clock seems like a no brainer - could probably be running with that now to be honest. Subs or tactical changes in second half only seems fair as well.
I have an idea for an easier restriction than banning separate players from an all time pool.
Just by 3 criteria:
1. Born after 1940
2. Played in Europe for a whole season
3. Did not receive a vote for Ballon D'or.
Just by 3 criteria:
1. Born after 1940
2. Played in Europe for a whole season
3. Did not receive a vote for Ballon D'or.
Yeah, good call. Bit of a classic sheep criteria round that. You'd need a caveat to rule out the South Americans, Maradona in particular, who weren't eligible until the mid-1990s.
Loving the Monopoly idea. But lets do it as you proceed like in Monopoly. Maybe add a "get out of jail card" of some sort.
Count me in @Edgar Allan Pillow
Count me in @Edgar Allan Pillow
I think this draft is a light break from tedious/research heavy ones before.
Imo, a South American draft will be nice after this followed by Monopoly after. Just to balance things.
But, let's see what managers prefer...
Imo, a South American draft will be nice after this followed by Monopoly after. Just to balance things.
But, let's see what managers prefer...
Another idea- I've been thinking more about the era style draft: the longest time period to compare players over whilst still having a similar style of play. Here's my final Eras based on birth dates (after much debate in my head)
1924 and earlier
1925-1945
1946-1966
1967-1987
For the later three periods gives us essentially a generation (21 years)
I reckon marrying this up with a Billy No Mates style would mix the players up a bit especially with only a 21 year gap- not ever playing in the national team or a domestic team could make it challenging but still have GOAT pulling power.
I'm most interested in the 67-87 one but am up for any other than the pre-1924 which will be mostly a research job of reports from the time
1924 and earlier
1925-1945
1946-1966
1967-1987
For the later three periods gives us essentially a generation (21 years)
I reckon marrying this up with a Billy No Mates style would mix the players up a bit especially with only a 21 year gap- not ever playing in the national team or a domestic team could make it challenging but still have GOAT pulling power.
I'm most interested in the 67-87 one but am up for any other than the pre-1924 which will be mostly a research job of reports from the time
I'm definitely up for the monopoly draft or any modern era ones. Don't really have the time or patience to sit through umpteen 80 year old matches to research players if I'm honest so they are ones I'd spectate.
Don't really like picking players if I've not seen them play and just researching reports doesn't seem like a fair enough assessment for me.
Don't really like picking players if I've not seen them play and just researching reports doesn't seem like a fair enough assessment for me.
South American draft shouldn't start until anto is back - if we assume that he is indeed coming back
Loved the part in the reality draft when Edgar was announcing DoFi players, made me think that it would be fun to play the whole draft in that was, something like Lottery Draft. Will think about the concept little bit more and post it here when i have something concrete....
That would be a crazy draft and something that could work quite well. I still think you should have the drafting stage, possibly even a complete draft that when the everyone has done there full picks go into a lottery draft were all the players are randomised and dished out. Would be horrible having to argue against the players you yourself picked.
I don't think he is...at least not on any time frame we know of.
South American only has been ignored for quite long now. I think we should get get on with it.
i already managed to get my thoughts on paper, took the template from Aldo Reserves Draft so that helped....think i got everything covered, the next draft is a long way ahead so there is time to fix few things if needed and who knows if people even like the idea.
General Rules:
1. Snake Draft Format i.e. picks start with Manager 1, then 1-16, 16-1, 1-16 and so on. (Random Order, initialised by a neutral.)
2. All managers have 8 hours to decide their pick, if not they can pick whenever they are ready while the draft continues. Three missed picks in a row results in loss of the eight hour window.
3. When you make a pick, please post only the player name and NOT a picture.
4. Once a pick is posted in the thread, either by a manager or his assistant, it CANNOT be changed. This rule is final, no exceptions (posted by mistake, etc). Be careful before posting a pick.
5. There will be 12 rounds of drafting.
6. Once the teams are done the matches will follow. All matches will run for 24 hours.
Draft Rules:
1. We will decide on the timestamps of the draft pool if we decide to play it, system is flexible so we can play all from the free pool to the specific type of draft.
2. There are no blocks.
3. At the end of the draft every manager will have 12 man squad, the rest of the formation is free for them to decide. There will probably be double positions or lack of certain type of players in the teams so here we have a chance to see how resourceful are the managers.
4. Every manager will have one free pick, be careful what you pick because every round will have a free pool position wise!
5. Do NOT name unpicked players, repeated offence will be punished by the draft mod.
6. How does a manager get his pick?
After the manager posts the player name in the main thread that name(x3) goes into the lottery wheel. But thats not the only thing that will be in the wheel. Again, this part will be updated after we know what draft we are playing but the basic idea is to have 3 additional pools of player. One with the lesser(x2) players, one with good ones(x2) and obviously one with the best(x1) ones.
After this initial draw draft master or a member of the Committee will announce which type of player with the manager get.
Then, there will be another draw to see which player will the manager get from the drawn pool.
Again, draft master or a member of the Committee will announce which player was won.
Restrictions:
Will be updated after we decide which draft are we playing.
Reinforcements:
1. Pre QF the winners will be able to get 2 new players from the losers pool, the draw will be made the same way with the difference that this manager can pick from which section(GK, DF, MF, ST) of the team he wants the new players. Good players will be x3, top players x2 and the lesser players will have only ona ball in the wheel.
2. Pre SF the winners will be able to get 2 new players from the losers pool, the draw will be made the same way with the difference that this manager can pick from which section(GK, DF, MF, ST) of the team he wants the new players. Good players will be x3, top players x1 and the lesser players will be removed from the wheel.
3. Pre Final both managers will have 3 chances to get that ONE player they want. They will PM the player to the draft master and Committee, if they both pick the same player they will have one more chance via same way of picking, they are free to send the same player if they want to(he isnt blocked), if again they pick the same player then we go to the snake format and the manager that was lower on the original draft has the first pick
Lottery Draft
General Rules:
1. Snake Draft Format i.e. picks start with Manager 1, then 1-16, 16-1, 1-16 and so on. (Random Order, initialised by a neutral.)
2. All managers have 8 hours to decide their pick, if not they can pick whenever they are ready while the draft continues. Three missed picks in a row results in loss of the eight hour window.
3. When you make a pick, please post only the player name and NOT a picture.
4. Once a pick is posted in the thread, either by a manager or his assistant, it CANNOT be changed. This rule is final, no exceptions (posted by mistake, etc). Be careful before posting a pick.
5. There will be 12 rounds of drafting.
6. Once the teams are done the matches will follow. All matches will run for 24 hours.
Draft Rules:
1. We will decide on the timestamps of the draft pool if we decide to play it, system is flexible so we can play all from the free pool to the specific type of draft.
2. There are no blocks.
3. At the end of the draft every manager will have 12 man squad, the rest of the formation is free for them to decide. There will probably be double positions or lack of certain type of players in the teams so here we have a chance to see how resourceful are the managers.
4. Every manager will have one free pick, be careful what you pick because every round will have a free pool position wise!
5. Do NOT name unpicked players, repeated offence will be punished by the draft mod.
6. How does a manager get his pick?
After the manager posts the player name in the main thread that name(x3) goes into the lottery wheel. But thats not the only thing that will be in the wheel. Again, this part will be updated after we know what draft we are playing but the basic idea is to have 3 additional pools of player. One with the lesser(x2) players, one with good ones(x2) and obviously one with the best(x1) ones.
After this initial draw draft master or a member of the Committee will announce which type of player with the manager get.
Then, there will be another draw to see which player will the manager get from the drawn pool.
Again, draft master or a member of the Committee will announce which player was won.
Restrictions:
Will be updated after we decide which draft are we playing.
Reinforcements:
1. Pre QF the winners will be able to get 2 new players from the losers pool, the draw will be made the same way with the difference that this manager can pick from which section(GK, DF, MF, ST) of the team he wants the new players. Good players will be x3, top players x2 and the lesser players will have only ona ball in the wheel.
2. Pre SF the winners will be able to get 2 new players from the losers pool, the draw will be made the same way with the difference that this manager can pick from which section(GK, DF, MF, ST) of the team he wants the new players. Good players will be x3, top players x1 and the lesser players will be removed from the wheel.
3. Pre Final both managers will have 3 chances to get that ONE player they want. They will PM the player to the draft master and Committee, if they both pick the same player they will have one more chance via same way of picking, they are free to send the same player if they want to(he isnt blocked), if again they pick the same player then we go to the snake format and the manager that was lower on the original draft has the first pick
Like the sound of that even if I don't quite understand the lottery part of it. I'm all up for drafts were you get shafted a bit and have to think on your feet.
This or the monopoly draft would be next if it was down to me.
This or the monopoly draft would be next if it was down to me.
Lottery part:
Lets say you pick Ibra, we add Rojo as shit player, Shaw as good one and De Gea as top one so the list that goes to randomizer looks like this:
1. Ibra
2. Ibra
3. Ibra
4. Rojo
5. Rojo
6. Shaw
7. Shaw
8. De Gea
After we do the randomizer who ever ends up at first place is your player, there for its a Lottery Draft.
1. Ibra
2. Ibra
3. Ibra
4. Rojo
5. Rojo
6. Shaw
7. Shaw
8. De Gea
After we do the randomizer who ever ends up at first place is your player, there for its a Lottery Draft.
Got it, sounds good
So there's no team building as all 12 players drawn by lottery?
pretty much, you get the highest odds to get the player you want but yeah, there isnt any team building like in usual drafts....its for the laughs and to rest from the heavy research ones.
It's been interesting looking at different possibilities in this – current – draft, with managers being forced to deal with both legacy/youth players and loss of starters.
What I'd like to see at some point is...well, let's call it the Legacy Draft for now:
Each manager gets a group of Legacy players (no nominations, a committee will choose these players and make sure the balance is right) and has to field a minimum of them in every round.
It's a variation on the water carrier theme, if you will. And the idea is that when you have to work your way around being stuck with a number of Legacy players at any given time, you have to draft much more tactically – you can't compose an XI freely, but have to go after targets who would blend well with your Legacy players.
8 Legacy players given to each manager (again, a committee will make sure that the above is distributed as fairly as possible) – and you have to field half of them in every match. For example. Could be 3, could be 5 – but it has to be many enough to pose a significant challenge.
The actual draft can be any format you please – doesn't matter. The idea is simply to force the managers to compose more realistic XIs, where the shiny names have to fit as pieces in a puzzle which is also made up of several non-shiny pieces.
What I'd like to see at some point is...well, let's call it the Legacy Draft for now:
Each manager gets a group of Legacy players (no nominations, a committee will choose these players and make sure the balance is right) and has to field a minimum of them in every round.
It's a variation on the water carrier theme, if you will. And the idea is that when you have to work your way around being stuck with a number of Legacy players at any given time, you have to draft much more tactically – you can't compose an XI freely, but have to go after targets who would blend well with your Legacy players.
8 Legacy players given to each manager (again, a committee will make sure that the above is distributed as fairly as possible) – and you have to field half of them in every match. For example. Could be 3, could be 5 – but it has to be many enough to pose a significant challenge.
The actual draft can be any format you please – doesn't matter. The idea is simply to force the managers to compose more realistic XIs, where the shiny names have to fit as pieces in a puzzle which is also made up of several non-shiny pieces.
I like it. You should call it the "Ultimate Reality Draft" as it resembles a non-Galacticos team perfectly. Add in some injuries/suspensions to mix things up and it'll be a cracking draft.
I might use some of the ideas from the original watercarrier draft - which had some mildly bamboozlin' features thrown in.
I'd like to keep it relatively chance/luck/randomness free, though - as I feel that part can be exploited better in a pure bamboozle draft, or in a reality draft like the present one, for that matter.
There will have to be something, though, to keep it interesting throughout. One basic idea is to block a certain pool of players who will then be unblocked, gradually, and made available for the reinforcement stages.
What up for next one? Put your preferences here.
Thought we'll play one serious one before we relax again with Monopoly.
South American:
EAP
Thought we'll play one serious one before we relax again with Monopoly.
South American:
EAP
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Yeah, why not?
South American:
EAP
Mazhar
South American:
EAP
Mazhar
I'd love to do the Reserve Reserves Draft we talked about a few weeks ago.
South American:
EAP
Mazhar
Reserves Draft Part Two:
Pat Mustard
South American:
EAP
Mazhar
Reserves Draft Part Two:
Pat Mustard
I'd be up for either.
I'm voting for one of my era drafts. Anyone born between 1st Jan 67 and 31st Dec 87 are eligible. It would be a snake format but with the Billy No Mates rule- no players in the entire squad can ever have been in the same squad for a World Cup/major confederation such as the Euros nor shared a season, even in part, at club level.
It will allow us to compare GOATs in a relatively similar era plus lots of lesser names as I think the No Mates rule- here will make drafting a super team very difficult indeed.
Billy No Mates '67-'87:
Physiocrat
South American:
EAP
Mazhar
Reserves Draft Part Two:
Pat Mustard
It will allow us to compare GOATs in a relatively similar era plus lots of lesser names as I think the No Mates rule- here will make drafting a super team very difficult indeed.
Billy No Mates '67-'87:
Physiocrat
South American:
EAP
Mazhar
Reserves Draft Part Two:
Pat Mustard
Isn't that the same as modern draft we played before with no mates rule added?
Nope. Modern draft was an 80s draft with some youth players from the 90s. This adds the 70s and the late 60s too. Also the no mates rule will significantly mix it up .
I don't like using youth players as they're very hard to gauge unless they're in their own specific draft- everyone born in '87 should have peaked by now (that said 87 was chosen to include Messi mainly). I split football eras based on bithdates into 1924 and before, '25 to '45, '46 to '66 and '67 to '87. It's wide enough to compare lots of GOATs but still being in a similar style of overall play. No Nesta and Nazzari comparisons for example
I fancied the monopoly one next but I'd also be in favour of any modern based draft.